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NU Discussion Thread (Mark II)

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gary the gengar said:
Will-o-wisp cripples medicham, and shadow claw can hurt it.

So it goes like this:

T-punch/Will-o-wisp
t-punch/recover
t-punch/shadow claw or whatever you like
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Well if switches in on T-punch it is 3HKO if you Shadow Claw and or Will-o-wisp. And I'd love to see you try to survive continual T-punch onslaughts when T-punch can parahax you and or crit you. Shadow Claw is doing crap when you don't boost your offensive stats.
 
gary the gengar said:
58% - 68.7% is hardly nothing. You can switch in, burn, then switch out anyways.
Its a pretty solid counter.
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Not if it's forced to switch out into WHAT's its supposed to counter. Sableye only beats Medicham if it switches into T-punch (god forbid a paralyze)
and uses RECOVER. Using Will-o-wisp will KILL YOU. Because T-punch is a 3HKO even if it gets burned. And if you miss, good job you just wasted a Sableye. It's not a counter, it's a check.
 
How does it only beat it if it switches into tpunch? Switching into a brick break/hi jump kick, psycho cut/zen headbutt, fake out or bullet punch is better...

Using will-o-wisp will allow you to avoid the 2hko, and you can switch in later to recover off the damage. Paralysis dosen't really matter to sableye.

EDIT: It isn't always even a 3hko anyways.
 
PK Gaming said:
I am assuming the Sub CM set not the Sub + 3 attacks because it's a lot more deadly imo. So if Skuntank switches in on a Sub...



Hold on. Those Calcs are WAY off. Espeon using HP Ground deals:
83.9% - 99.2%

almost a clear OHKO with entry hazards. damage.
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First: Remember, I'm saying that you never switch directly out of Espeon, since letting it get a Sub up is too dangerous. Maybe you'll notice this time. :)

Second, when I said that it can't switch after the Pursuit, I meant sub. You didn't address that, but it bothered me. D:

Before we continue this debate we have to get one thing straight. Which sets are we using. My calcs were done with the following sets:

Skuntank@Life Orb
Trait: Aftermath
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Explosion
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Sucker Punch

Espeon@Leftovers
Trait: Synchronize
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Subsitute
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Ground] / Calm Mind
- Signal Beam / Calm Mind

Whetever way I put it into the calc, I cant get your calc. I still get mine. What sets are you using to calc them?

And I want to bring up that, if you are running SubCM, there is a chance that you don't even have HP Ground. In which case you lose.


It still deters Skuntank from directly switching in.
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Yep. Skutank can win and take advantage of it, but it needs some prediction. I can also argue, that since Skuntank is such a huge threat to it, it needs the Will-o-Wisp, to not be utterly slaughtered. This supports the Fire types even more, by giving them free switch ins.

I probably should also point to the fact that Dusclops is getting increasingly uncommon anyways, and that makes spinning easier. I believe that that's because of Skuntank, but you can easily attribute that to the fact that stuff like Magmortar walks all over it, and the relative crappiness of stall.


No way. If Skuntank switches into a frailer sweeper more often than naught it's going sucker punch (giving you a free switch) Skuntank mindgames are pretty simple really.
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This depends on the player. If the player is good, then the mindgames aren't.

(I thought the expression was "more often than not" D:)


I'm going to ignore the Sableye point, since Gary has that covered.
 
That's the annoying thing about Skuntank. If it comes in on a damaged or very frail (Raichu) sweeper, it can Sucker Punch or Pursuit. Either they get two kills for the price of one, they guess wrong and trade one-for-one with Explosion, or they Pursuit and you attack - the best-case scenario.

Skuntank mindgames are unpleasant.

The reason I think SubCM Espeon is flawed is because it loses to Slowking. You basically lose all of your health Calm Minding up to +6 to have a shot at 2HKOing with Psychic/HP Ground, while it can break your Sub until you have 3-4 CMs. And if you carry Shadow Ball/Signal Beam, this discussion is totally irrelevant because Skuntank beats you.
 
Leman said:
First: Remember, I'm saying that you never switch directly out of Espeon, since letting it get a Sub up is too dangerous. Maybe you'll notice this time. :)

Second, when I said that it can't switch after the Pursuit, I meant sub. You didn't address that, but it bothered me. D:

Before we continue this debate we have to get one thing straight. Which sets are we using. My calcs were done with the following sets:

Skuntank@Life Orb
Trait: Aftermath
EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Explosion
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Sucker Punch

Espeon@Leftovers
Trait: Synchronize
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Subsitute
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Ground] / Calm Mind
- Signal Beam / Calm Mind

Whetever way I put it into the calc, I cant get your calc. I still get mine. What sets are you using to calc them?
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I used the smogon calculator. HP ground is almot always a potential OHKO. Seriously, I agree that just switching in is dumb, but even IF you switch in after Espeon has KOed something, unless you have used Sucker punch, HP ground will utterly cripple you.

And I want to bring up that, if you are running SubCM, there is a chance that you don't even have HP Ground. In which case you lose.
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yep.

Yep. Skutank can win and take advantage of it, but it needs some prediction. I can also argue, that since Skuntank is such a huge threat to it, it needs the Will-o-Wisp, to not be utterly slaughtered. This supports the Fire types even more, by giving them free switch ins.
Click to expand...
Oh. That's a good point.

I probably should also point to the fact that Dusclops is getting increasingly uncommon anyways, and that makes spinning easier. I believe that that's because of Skuntank, but you can easily attribute that to the fact that stuff like Magmortar walks all over it, and the relative crappiness of stall.


This depends on the player. If the player is good, then the mindgames aren't.

(I thought the expression was "more often than not" D:)
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Agreed.



Ice-eyes said:
That's the annoying thing about Skuntank. If it comes in on a damaged or very frail (Raichu) sweeper, it can Sucker Punch or Pursuit. Either they get two kills for the price of one, they guess wrong and trade one-for-one with Explosion, or they Pursuit and you attack - the best-case scenario.

Skuntank mindgames are unpleasant.
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They are quite fun actually. Raichu has access to encore, so he can make it uselessly sucker punch while I boost my way to max. If it guesses wrong it's forked. (Skuntank is so damn cocky) It's also pretty easily revenged because people use it indiscriminately.

The reason I think SubCM Espeon is flawed is because it loses to Slowking. You basically lose all of your health Calm Minding up to +6 to have a shot at 2HKOing with Psychic/HP Ground, while it can break your Sub until you have 3-4 CMs. And if you carry Shadow Ball/Signal Beam, this discussion is totally irrelevant because Skuntank beats you.
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Oh geez, you DO raise a good point. Maybe I should I give the Sub + 3 attacks a go.
 
Is there any viable set for offensive Articuno? I was thinking about SubRoost CM but it has the 4 slot syndrome..
Otherwise, what could be more benefitting for my team? It has SD Tauros, DD Zard, LO Dodrio, Agility/SD Kingler and a Primeape lead. I was thinking about replacing Articuno with a dual screener, I was thinking about Gardevoir with T-Wave/WoW/Reflect/Light Screen but I'm kinda unsure what about the EV spread, that, and that it's total Taunt bait.
 
Offensive articuno is outdone by a lot of other offensive pokemon, specifically Zard. Considering Articuno's best options are Ice Beam, Hidden Power, Air Slash, Ancient Power, and Water Pulse, maybe it's best to stay defensive.
 
Well, I've finally started to pull ideas that are not bog standard out of the thinktank.


I've been staying away from NU, because I'm one of those people who hates using the central pokemon of a teir, but, in NU, the 'central' pokemon are almost all broken, so combatting them is nigh impossible without... using them.

I'm planning to test out the effectivness of Life Orb Dodrio as a late-game sweeper. Once Skuntank's out of the way, I don't really see much stopping it without taking massive daage from his STABs, coming of Base 110 Attack, and Base 100 Speed, outrunning basically the whole teir. Very little can switch in, and then take a Quick Attack [In the case of stuff like Scarfed Magmortar]

I've used CB Dodrio in the past to good effectiveness, so LO Dodrio should be fun to play around with. On paper, it seems like it should rip through teams, especially with the lack of Flying resists which are used in the teir, and the high number of Fighting-types in the teir at this time.

Just another quirk tested by Raikaria... although, I'd re-test things like NP Raichu and SD Victreebel, if Skuntank wasn't EVERYWHERE.

I'm also testing Cacturne, not seen him in a while, maybe he can be a good replacement for SD Victreebel, after all, he resists Sucker Punch... but loses Sleep Powder.
 
@Raikaria
I have a Sandstorm team that I need to use more. I just keep forgetting to go on the NU server and ladder. It has been a really long time since I battled, so I'm afraid of being rusty and blaming it on my team XD
 
Mattman324 said:
Offensive articuno is outdone by a lot of other offensive pokemon, specifically Zard. Considering Articuno's best options are Ice Beam, Hidden Power, Air Slash, Ancient Power, and Water Pulse, maybe it's best to stay defensive.
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Just saying: Articuno doesn't learn Air Slash.
 
Raikaria said:
Well, I've finally started to pull ideas that are not bog standard out of the thinktank.


I've been staying away from NU, because I'm one of those people who hates using the central pokemon of a teir, but, in NU, the 'central' pokemon are almost all broken, so combatting them is nigh impossible without... using them.

I'm planning to test out the effectivness of Life Orb Dodrio as a late-game sweeper. Once Skuntank's out of the way, I don't really see much stopping it without taking massive daage from his STABs, coming of Base 110 Attack, and Base 100 Speed, outrunning basically the whole teir. Very little can switch in, and then take a Quick Attack [In the case of stuff like Scarfed Magmortar]

I've used CB Dodrio in the past to good effectiveness, so LO Dodrio should be fun to play around with. On paper, it seems like it should rip through teams, especially with the lack of Flying resists which are used in the teir, and the high number of Fighting-types in the teir at this time.

Just another quirk tested by Raikaria... although, I'd re-test things like NP Raichu and SD Victreebel, if Skuntank wasn't EVERYWHERE.

I'm also testing Cacturne, not seen him in a while, maybe he can be a good replacement for SD Victreebel, after all, he resists Sucker Punch... but loses Sleep Powder.
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Good for you. Fuck Skuntank and Espeon :pimp:
Yeah, I've used CB Dodrio for a bit (2-3 matches) and it's attacks HURT.
Also don't worry, NP Raichu beats if you've got encore. Just Nasty plot again as they sucker punch (they never see it) and encore them. Also luring him out is easy as ****. (Just use Will-o-wisp gardy) or t-wave Slowking so you can revenge KO with ease.


Raikaria: I wouldn't go for Cacturne simply because it's frail AND slow. Your much better off with Victreebel (unless it's SS)
 
wavedash said:
Cacturne is really quite bad outside of a sandstorm.
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I used Encore/SuckerPunch/Spikes/SeedBomb with Sash as a lead to some decent success. I scrapped that team a while ago though, because it wasn't that great, but it was decent.

@PK: I think the argument is over, since you agreed with me. One of us is putting it into the calc wrong, but still.
 
Yeah, but, as I said, I'm testing Cacturne, trial and error kinda thing.

Victreebel isn't exactly fast either, but it's also easily killed by Skuntank, unlike Cacturne, who resists Sucker Punch, so can at least give the Skunk a good pounding before going down.

Victreebel's selling point is Sleep Powder... and that's kinda it.

So I need to weight up 'Being killed by Skuntank, and being able to check Espeon', and 'Having Sleep Powder to help set up'

Of course, testing, means 'looking for a battle on the NU ladder for an hour and finding no-one'

Speaking of the Espeon point, isn't Cacturne a good check/counter. It resists Shadow Ball, HP Ground, and is immune to Psychic, and has the strongest Sucker Punch in the teir. The only threat I see from Espeon is Signal Beam, which is x4 effective.

The question is, is Cacturne too frail to kill the sub, and then Espeon...
 
Raikaria said:
The question is, is Cacturne too frail to kill the sub, and then Espeon...
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Well seeing as a timid, LO espeon only deals 26.7% - 31.7% to a cacturne with no hp or special defense investment, its safe to say that cacturne is a great check and counter to any espeon without signal beam.
 
This is why Espeon should ALWAYS carry SBeam.
Anyway, I find this a very appealing Pokemon.

206.png

Don't steal my idea, but get Gligar on your team and baton pass an agility and SD, and you have a BEAST to play with, a complete BEAST. Give it LO and it's a sweeper.
Speed isn't an issue because max speed is 207, double that, 414, meaning it outspeeds all NU, and for another example Timid Jolteon. Fearsome sweeper. Really underestimated Pokemon, but I think it should get Sash instead of LO, and start flinching things to death.
 
I love sparce, but simple Bibarel does better with +2/+2. Dunsparce should just go for a bulky paraflinch annoyer set (which works wonderfully in any tier, by the way.) okay, wonderfully was a bad word choice. hilarious is better.
 
It does get some cool points though.
And Bib can be a tank with RestTalk and Waterfall / Return. But my team needs some cool points so Sparce will do it.
 
Don't steal my idea, but get Gligar on your team and baton pass an agility and SD, and you have a BEAST to play with, a complete BEAST. Give it LO and it's a sweeper.
Click to expand...

You can pretty much do that with ANY Pokemon and it will be a beast. I mean seriously.
 
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