Quality Control Documentation

Thanks for the clarification Eric. That now throws a new look at Gyarados and [insert name here] Metagross, whatever you call it. I havent used either, so it's nice to see the matchup.

EDITz: and begin the fourth page! Looking good!
 
I'll just go into the sets that ended up having a disappointing performance.

Latias

* Dual Screen - My issues with this set was it suicidal nature you aren't able to set up both screens without killing yourself in the process. It doesn't do the job better then something like Azelf, because the lack of a move like taunt makes it susceptible to being set up on.

* Substitute + Calm Mind - I don't see what substitute gives to the calm mind set that warrants it lost in coverage. Latias gains the advantage to avoid status but other then toxic its not something it really needs to fear, the only common user that switches into Latias is Blissey which beats this set anyways. This set still doesn't deal well with pursuiters even if you can switch out each time they can come in you cant do anything to them while never getting the chance to heal in the process so you lose in the long run. I think this still would be better off changing to something like Substitute Roar,Recover and Dragon Pulse which at least gives it a way to deal with common pursuiters by making it harder for them to switch in while wearing them down.

Lucario

* Reversal I found this set hard to set up and in the few times i did it ended with less then great results. The lack of priority on Lucario makes it easy to revenge at most you get one ko then something in the form of priority or scarf comes in takes it out.


Machamp

* Choice Scarf - The problem with this set is Machamp has to go jolly to even outrun anything important at all, and even with that there is still too much it cant outrun. The fact is you give up power and make it easier for pokemon to switch in that you should normally be able to deal with.


Togekiss

* Choice Specs - My results during my test with this set was pretty poor. Togekiss becomes a lot easier to deal with while choiced, and unlike the scarf set the spec set is pretty slow, so it is not really able to abuse its chances of flinching, nor does it hit hard enough to make up for it. To sum up my problem with this set its to slow and lacks any power and has a hard enough time to switching in due to its stealth rock weak and lack of resistances.
 
Forgive me I'm out of place for voicing thoughts here, but I would believe Belly Drum Clefable has some viability with the moveset Cosmic Power/Softboiled/Belly Drum/Double-Edge. It plays rather similarly to most other last pokemon stat-uppers, but it boosts both defensive stats, has reliable recovery, and is immune to poison and other forms of residual damage. As an added bonus, you don't reveal two of your moves until you have already completed most of your setup. Surely it's better than the current set, which relies on 60 base speed Jolly to outpace foes.
 
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/gorebyss

Just a tiny nitpick here, the EVs for the "Swift Swim Sweeper" set say 36 HP/252 SpA/220 Spe, and it suggests a Life Orb as the item. If you actually use this spread, Gorebyss would have 260 HP, which is probably the worst option for a Life Orb set due to it dying in 10 attacks instead of 11. I think it should just be changed to 32 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 220 Spe so that it has a Life Orb number and avoids a multiple of 10 for the HP stat.

EDIT: Sorry about that, don't know my way around just yet
 
questions for the OU team regarding Lucario: slashing swords dance with counter on the anti-lead set seems kind of counter-productive since half the point of the set is to counter stuff. also, maybe slash hasty to beat jolly mamoswine leads?
 
whistle said:
questions for the OU team regarding Lucario: slashing swords dance with counter on the anti-lead set seems kind of counter-productive since half the point of the set is to counter stuff. also, maybe slash hasty to beat jolly mamoswine leads?
Click to expand...


Yeah, I agree with removing sword dance from the set, and I think hasty worth the mention it also gives a better chance against lead Roserade.
 
SilentEcho's post reminded me about Reversal sets in general. Seriously, why do we even advertise these sets to begin with? They are borderline gimmicks to begin with. Even with someone like Lucario, who is immune to Sandstorm, why would I sacrifice the reliability of Close Combat for something that would work situational like Reversal? Even in UU which doesn't spam Sandstorm / Hail as much as OU, there's still massive amounts of priority.

The Pokemon who had Reversal Movesets:

- Lucario
- Heracross
- Blaziken
- Hitmonlee
- Medicham
- Primeape
- Scyther
- Vigoroth

Some might be valid, but the vast majority of this list? Even though a lot of them are UU / NU, I place a little doubt in it (except maybe Scyther where it's set up with Stealth Rock easier due to the 50% damage taken by Stealth Rock then 25% from Substitute).
 
This falls somewhat under Colonel M's point, but I think most of the Substitute + Pinch Berry sets in general are borderline gimmicks as well. This combo is only effective by Pokemon who have unique niches that help it use that combination effectively, such as Empoleon. It has an immunity to sandstorm, has Torrent, and resists Bullet Punch, ExtremeSpeed, Sucker Punch, Ice Shard, and Aqua Jet, almost every form of priority. Most of the other Pokemon that try to pull this off don't do it well enough. This combo is basically a one-trick pony, so if you make one tiny mistake, you basically make your set worthless; however, if you manage to pull it off, it may just sweep an entire team, but this is unlikely with most Pokemon. I honestly don't think many of these are competitive sets. In my opinion, they should all be directed to the Optional Changes section if it's moderately worth it. Only Pokemon that are really awesome at using a SubBerry set should stay. Thoughts?
 
I agree, and have been personally removing these sets (reversal and sub berry) when I come across them while doing QC, and I'm fairly sure the rest of the team has been as well. I can assure you that by the time QC has finished going over all sets on-site, there will be none left (other than the ones that are actually effective like Empoleon :)
 
Oh yeah, also forgot to do the same with F(l)ail. I guess the Pokemon like Luvdisc can keep it for shits and giggles.
 
Long overdue; sorry about this

Steelix:
-Curse is cool.
-CB is definitely OO material.
-I am rarely inclined to blow up Steelix; thus, I do not really view Baitlix as overly good nor have I had much success with it.

Altaria:
-Cool.

Hitmontop (name PIKACHU):
-Max HP / Max Def set needs to be added or should be the EV spread for the Spinner.
-Earthquake should be an option for Toxicroak.
-Sucker Punch is bad on the spinner set.
-CB is OO material.

Arcanine:
-Morning Glory looks fine for the most part, although perhaps comments should emphasize its ability to counter Grass-types, for one.
-Howl is bad. Remove.
-Choice Band is fine.
-Choice Specs is OO material.
-RestTalk Shuffler is obsolete with Morning Sun. Remove.
-Bulky is outclassed by Morning Glory; Remove.
 
SLACKER

Eo Ut Mortus said:
Long overdue; sorry about this

Steelix:
-I am rarely inclined to blow up Steelix; thus, I do not really view Baitlix as overly good nor have I had much success with it.
Click to expand...

I don't think this set was given a fair shot, the current metagame does not rely on Steelix to remain alive in order to counter Raikou like the metagame you've had your majority of experience in.
Eo Ut Slackerus said:
Hitmontop (name PIKACHU):
-Sucker Punch is bad on the spinner set.
-CB is OO material.
Click to expand...

I disagree with Sucker Punch being bad. It may not be as good as it used to be because Moltres is now everywhere (making Stone Edge the better option), but it is still great for fending off Alakazam and various other fast and frail Pokemon.

Also I think it should be noted that I argued for CB to be OO material but the majority wanted it on there. However if you think it should be moved to OC then I would completely agree.

Eo Ut Slackerus said:
Arcanine:
-RestTalk Shuffler is obsolete with Morning Sun. Remove.
-Bulky is outclassed by Morning Glory; Remove.
Click to expand...

Restalk Shuffler is not outclassed because Morning Sun does not allow you to absorb status and abuse Arcanine's Speed for a "speed shuffle". It should stay imo.

The bulky set just needs to be updated with Morning Sun. Morning Glory can't take Double-Edges, Facades, and Superpowers like the bulky set can.

Those are my nitpicks.
 
I support Heysup's Arcanine statements.

I edited out the rest, since I believe the manner in which I posted was a bit immature. Probably also not going to get my point across.
3rd Edit; @ Alan, I believe that Quick Attack is learned through the Male Trapinch-> Flygon breeding with the Nincada->Ninjask. It may be even a chain breed, I'm not sure.
 
Fire Sock said:
I support Heysup's Arcanine statements.

I edited out the rest, since I believe the manner in which I posted was a bit immature. Probably also not going to get my point across.
3rd Edit; @ Alan, I believe that Quick Attack is learned through the Male Trapinch-> Flygon breeding with the Nincada->Ninjask. It may be even a chain breed, I'm not sure.
Click to expand...

According to Ninjask's Moves Tab on the Analysis page it cannot learn it. Bulbapedia also shows no way of Ninjask learning it, even in RSE.

Also, agreeing with Pinch Berry sets being gimmics bar Empoleon.
 
Heysup said:
I don't think this set was given a fair shot, the current metagame does not rely on Steelix to remain alive in order to counter Raikou like the metagame you've had your majority of experience in.
Click to expand...

Not only Raikou, but Swellow, Drapion, and Scyther, who still remain prominent threats. Other than that, all I can say is that I have had very little success with this set, and I have no problem attributing this to either the set or my play/team building style - so yeah, I guess "you be the judge".

I disagree with Sucker Punch being bad. It may not be as good as it used to be because Moltres is now everywhere (making Stone Edge the better option), but it is still great for fending off Alakazam and various other fast and frail Pokemon.
Click to expand...
I would much rather use Earthquake to counter Drapion / Toxicroak / other Poison-types, or Stone Edge for Moltres and Altaria. I am aware it is viable for that reason, but I don't think it's viable enough to be the first option (and also keeping in mind the fact that a lot of Alakazam carry Substitute).

Restalk Shuffler is not outclassed because Morning Sun does not allow you to absorb status and abuse Arcanine's Speed for a "speed shuffle". It should stay imo.
Click to expand...
I found that it was absolutely necessary for Arcanine to have room for other moves, namely Toxic/Will-O-Wisp, but fair enough; I can see your point.

The bulky set just needs to be updated with Morning Sun. Morning Glory can't take Double-Edges, Facades, and Superpowers like the bulky set can.
Click to expand...
Depends on your definition of the Morning Glory set. A bulky set would likely just be a set very similar to the Morning Glory set with a bulkier EV spread. So I have no problem with a bulky set; I just assumed that it could be incorporated within the write-up of the Morning Glory set.
 
Double posting because I'm cool. I think communication will be easier if we post our responses to Phil in this thread, and it makes sense since we are documenting the process. etc. I'm posting mine, anyway.

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Azumarill

  • Remove Belly Drum set
  • Slash Toxic and Ice Punch with Aqua Jet and Waterfall respectively on the SubPunch set
  • Add "Non Choice" set which looks like this:
[SET]
name: Non Choice
move 1: Double-Edge
move 2: Aqua Jet
move 3: Ice Punch
move 4: Substitute / Waterfall
item: Leftovers / Life Orb
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Click to expand...
(IMO, this looks very similar to the Sub Punch set, so maybe replace that? IDK, you guys are the pros. ~Phil)

---------

Sub / Double Edge seems kind of counter-productive. Is it that better than Return? Agree with everything else, though.

I think it might be worth adding an optional EV spread that enables Azumarill to outspeed most defensive Milotic (primarily on CB, since Return 2HKOes. Thoughts?

---------

Blastoise

  • Remove every set bar Utility and Choice Specs
  • Fix Choice Specs set to look like this:
[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Water Spout / Hydro Pump
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Hidden Power Grass
move 4: Surf / Rapid Spin
item: Choice Specs
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Click to expand...
(When evaluating this set, please refer to the revamp analysis in the UU subforum. ~Phil)

---------

Agree.

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Blaziken

  • Rearrange sets so Physical Choice is at the top
  • Move Special Choice to OO
  • Remove Reversal set
  • Get Swords Dance set up on-site (currently being written by j. franky)
---------

Agree.

---------

Torterra

  • Remove Swords Dance set
  • Remove Lead set (Heysup, you said this set sucks because of Froslass, which is gone now. Let me know if you reconsider your position on this)
  • The rest was written by Heysup, so please check out his analysis and make sure you like what you see!
---------

Agree. I saw the Lead set used to pretty good success even during the Froslass era, so imo it should be all the more viable now.

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Clefable

  • Possible removal of Belly Drum set (maybe move to OO?) or at the very least move to the bottom of the list
  • Combine "Toxic + Encore" and "Toxic Stall" sets
  • Remove Burn Orb Trick set
  • Add Calm Mind set that looks like this:
[SET]
name: Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Softboiled
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 SpA
Click to expand...
---------

Belly Drum is still viable enough to warrant a set imo. I agree it should probably be around the bottom, though.

The move Trick is worth at least some mention (good switch-in to opposing Trick Pokemon). I don't disagree with the notion that there shouldn't be a set solely dedicated to it, though.

Agree with merging the Toxic sets and adding Calm Mind set (Aldaron was also using a pretty good CM / LO set, which I think warrants mention as well).

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Dugtrio

  • Separate Choice Band and Life Orb so they have their own sets, with Life Orb having Substitute, Sucker Punch, Earthquake, Stone Edge, and mentioning Beat Up in AC
  • Put Beat Up on Choice Band and Choice Scarf sets
  • (This analysis looks really ugly the way it's set up. Any suggestions on how to make it not look retarded? ~Phil)
---------

Agree, and sorry, I wrote the analysis, and I was supposed to write up the OU set comments, but I never got around to doing so.

---------

 Feraligatr

  • Remove Choice Band set
---------

Agree.

---------

Ludicolo

---------

Just want to add that Zen Headbutt should be mentioned for hitting physically defensive Venusaur harder and Toxicroak.

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Milotic

  • Slash Haze over Ice Beam and Toxic
  • Slash Toxic with Ice Beam and HP Grass on Rest Talk set
  • Remove Offensive set and possibly move to OO if anything
---------

Agree with everything.

Recover should be the second option on the first set as well, rather than HP Grass.

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Hariyama

  • Remove Special Tank set, as it is too similar to Physical Tank, yet inferior
  • Slot Payback over Knock Off on Physical Tank set
  • Remove Fire Punch on Choice Band set
  • Combine the Physical Tank and Rest Talk sets
  • Remove Bulk Up set
  • Remove Earthquake from Sub Punch set
---------

Agree.

---------

 Hitmonlee

  • Choice sets need max Speed
  • Combine Choice Band, Choice Scarf, and Life Orb into one set with slashes for each item. Mention in AC that Mach Punch should only be used on CB and LO
  • Remove Sub Reversal set
---------

Agree.

---------

Tangrowth

  • Analysis is geared towards OU. Get QC writer to fix ASAP.
  • Remove Choice Specs and "Knock it Off, Mojonbo Rules Here" sets
  • New main set should be added:
[SET]
name: Standard
move 1: Leaf Storm / Power Whip
move 2: Hidden Power Ice
move 3: Synthesis
move 4: Sleep Powder / Stun Spore / Leech Seed
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold / Impish
evs: 252 HP / 192 Def / 64 SpD
Click to expand...
---------

I think Earthquake should be mentioned in the fourth moveslot for Drapion and Toxicroak, mainly, but also Registeel to an extent. Also want to emphasize that Leaf Storm is better because it 100% OHKOes Absol. A basic 252 / 252 spread should be ideal since Raikou is now banned.

---------

Ambipom

  • Remove Nasty Plot Baton Pass set
  • Separate Sweeper and Lead sets, with Lead set having Fake Out, U-turn, Taunt, Return @ Silk Scarf / Leftovers, and Sweeper having Fake Out, Return, Payback / Pursuit, Low Kick / U-turn @ Life Orb / Silk Scarf
---------

Agree.

---------

Houndoom

  • Separate Life Orb Nasty Plot into these two sets:
[SET]
name: Life Orb Nasty Plot
move 1: Nasty Plot
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Dark Pulse
move 4: Sucker Punch
item: Life Orb
nature: Hasty
evs: 100 Atk / 224 Spe / 184 SpA
Click to expand...
and...
[SET]
name: Specialized Nasty Plot
move 1: Nasty Plot
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Dark Pulse
move 4: Taunt / Beat Up
item: Leftovers / Passho Berry
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 Spe / 252 SpA
Click to expand...
  • Remove Specs set
  • Possible removal of lead set, if not rewrite
  • Mixed set should be Pursuit, Sucker Punch, Fire Blast, Dark Pulse with EVs similar to LO Nasty Plot set suggested above, but with more Atk EVs (looking for suggestions)
---------

Agree.

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Kabutops

  • Remove Mixed set
  • Remove Flail set
  • Remove Return on Swords Dance set, making the final version SD, Waterfall, Aqua Jet, Stone Edge
---------

Agree, but I think Return should at least then be mentioned in OC for Poliwrath and Quagsire.

---------

 Mismagius

  • Bulky sets need a paragraph explaining alternative EV spreads for extra speed and more defensive
  • Change Calm Mind + 3 Attacks to Nasty Plot + 3 Attacks
  • Take Life Orb off "Nasty Plot" set
  • Mention Taunt on the Sub Calm Mind set
---------

 Why is LO being taken off? Whistle didn't post the reason in the thread because he's a noob.
 
azumarill needs a jolly nature and ~200 speed to outspeed most milotic, and ~232 evs to outspeed basically all milotic. adamant cb return does a ton and basically forces milotic into a "recover and crit" or "attack and die" or "switch out at 50%" situation. people running special defense means adamant cb return can probably 2hko a fair portion of milotic. jolly makes azumarill less useful against max defense milotic, and the speed evs required makes it much much less bulky. but it's still something that is kind of useful for azumarill so putting it into oc makes sense.

i took life orb off the 2 attack + nasty plot + "utility" set because nasty plot + 3 attack uses life orb much more efficiently. it's "usable" on the former set but 9/10 times i'd rather use leftovers to take full advantage of the utility move.
 
taking drapion bulky sd set to write (tested it a lot today).
 
whistle said:
i took life orb off the 2 atack + nasty plot + "utility" set because nasty plot + 3 attack uses life orb much more efficiently. it's "usable" on the former set but 9/10 times i'd rather use leftovers to take full advantage of the utility move.
Click to expand...

I think LO is only an inferior item if you're using Substitute; with Taunt it's still pretty effective:

+2 Thunderbolt vs 252/0 Milotic: 74.62 - 88.32% - 6% chance to OHKO with SR
+2 LO Thunderbolt vs 252/0 Milotic: 97.46 - 114.72% - guaranteed OHKO with SR, 81% chance without

+2 Thunderbolt vs 252/0+ Milotic: 68.53 - 80.71% - 2HKO
+2 LO Thunderbolt vs 252/0+ Milotc: 88.83 - 104.57% - guaranteed OHKO with SR

+2 Shadow Ball vs 4/0 Venusaur: 74.75 - 88.04% - 6% chance to OHKO with SR
+2 LO Shadow Ball vs 4/0 Venusaur: 97.01 - 114.62% - guaranteed OHKO with SR

Life Orb lets you be a much more efficient wallbreaker while still being able to use Taunt to outmaneuver Chansey / Clefable. I think it's fine where it is slashed in after Leftovers tbh, since it is an appropriate item for that Mismagius set if you're wanting to go more on the offensive.
 
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