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NP: UU - Bye Bye Bye

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Has anyone noticed a sudden insurgence in encore teams?
Yeah, people are definitely using encore way more, though that's mostly just because Encore is an amazing move and we're just realizing that now. Especially with so many defensive pokemon being used, even on offensive teams, encore has tons of opportunities to set up a set-up.

I've noticed that pretty much every successful team (or at least most teams I've lost to or had trouble with) is using the standard Fire-Grass-Water combo, and it's more successful then ever before. Also, ghosts are so common that I haven't even thought of spinning, it seems everyone is still in the habit of using them. It makes sense, as rocks are so helpful for bringing down Moltres (and Scyther, Swellow, Arcanine, etc), but still...
 
I don't use any ghosts. My team still does fine. Although I still put assurance on my donphan. No one expects it anymore, and it KO'es offensive rotom and mismagius that try to switch in on earthquake. Provided you have rocks up of course.
 
Yeah, people are definitely using encore way more, though that's mostly just because Encore is an amazing move and we're just realizing that now. Especially with so many defensive pokemon being used, even on offensive teams, encore has tons of opportunities to set up a set-up.

Maybe you guys are just realizing this now, but I've been abusing Encore since last year. =p

It's my favorite move in the game. It's funny how much it frustrates people, especially when Pokemon who have Encore also have other annoying moves like Sleep Power or Switcheroo. Encore is also useful on set-up sweepers like Alakazam. I WISH Houndoom got Encore, I would so abuse that.

But I haven't really noticed any teams abusing Encore besides a few Clefables here and there.
 
Maybe you guys are just realizing this now, but I've been abusing Encore since last year. =p

It's my favorite move in the game. It's funny how much it frustrates people, especially when Pokemon who have Encore also have other annoying moves like Sleep Power or Switcheroo. Encore is also useful on set-up sweepers like Alakazam. I WISH Houndoom got Encore, I would so abuse that.

But I haven't really noticed any teams abusing Encore besides a few Clefables here and there.

Tell me about it. It's a shame though, unlike Zam who's mere presence forces switches, Raichu NEEDS encore to setup. He scares waters and Moltres... and that's it. I reckon without it he would be very hard to use.

and you guys are right Dugtrio is useless. People are wising up and using Shed Shell Steel, so I can't take it out for Raichu. (ah well, Torterra will have to do)
 
You know, if you're using a Stall team, you can easily bait out Dugtrio and completely rape it. Simply put Shed Shell on Chansey and pair it up with Porygon2. The Duggy user would be like "hurr hurr hurr DIE CHANSEY", and then you'd just switch to P2 and Ice Beam it do death. The standard Defensive set takes 37.70% - 44.39% from a CB'd EQ, so you can just switch in, Recover some health and OHKO it.

Conclusion: Dugtrio sucks.
 
Yeah this is definitely shaping up as a "No Suspects" kinda round for me. I'm seeing a ton of diversity in the ladder, which is actually making teambuilding really difficult (I end up being weak to random shit like Drapion) but it's definitely indicative of a healthy metagame. Stall is not anywhere near dominant; in fact I now feel confident in saying that it wins less consistently than bulky offense does. I'm glad we didn't vote out Moltres because without spikes it's pretty meh, and I'm especially glad we didn't vote out Dugtrio because it sucks and would probably get eaten by Staraptor if it had to live in BL.
 
I'm especially glad we didn't vote out Dugtrio because it sucks and would probably get eaten by Staraptor if it had to live in BL.
oh man I lol'd

Actually, Flare, I'm going to thank you personally for giving me a new reason to play. I want to see for myself if there's truly anything with enough potential to overpower UU and hasn't yet been exploited by the masses. In a metagame like OU, that's borderline impossible to do, let alone motion for a ban afterward (fucking Salamence is still OU, what do you expect), but seeing as UU is undergoing constant changes, a little metagame revolution wouldn't hurt to liven things up.
 
Yeah, I'm really loving this round of UU. No suspects so far, and unless someone can come up with some amazing new set, that's how it's going to remain.

I'm glad we didn't vote out Moltres because without spikes it's pretty meh, and I'm especially glad we didn't vote out Dugtrio because it sucks and would probably get eaten by Staraptor if it had to live in BL.

This. Especially the Dugtrio part.
 
Encore really is one of the best moves to utilize in this meta. I used Encore to greeat effect in the Duck era, when my Encore+3 attacks Alakazam destroyed every fucking CM Cress out there, and then proceeded to sweep whole teams.
 
I agree. I also agree that teambuilding is significantly harder this round. It's much harder to build a team and remain consistent with it. There's just so much to take into account and it's quite annoying that you can beat this, this, this, but get swept by some random pos that is hella rare. I've gotten bored really quickly, but I think it's a heatly metagame as well.
 
I'm really enjoying the diversity and flexibility of this round - for the first time in god knows how long (in any metagame) I don't think there's a 'standard team.' The range of Pokemon that have been thrown at me over the past few days brings a smile to my face. That said, I don't think we can make any concrete judgements on the metagame yet until it settles down because at the moment everybody is just testing stuff out but I agree that, thus far at least, there doesn't look like being any suspects.

On a side note, one of the main things that put me off UU last round was having to play against those boring-as-hell cookie-cutter Hail teams but they seem to have all but vanished now that the witch is dead. :toast:
 
On a side note, one of the main things that put me off UU last round was having to play against those boring-as-hell cookie-cutter Hail teams but they seem to have all but vanished now that the bitch is dead.

Fixed :)

On a side note, I tried out an offensive, Flash Fire LO Arcanine instead of my usual Morning Glory... and my god I am in love with it. Flare Blitz just kills so many things, and bulky waters get Toxiced. I also tried out that Encore + 3 attacks Alakazam, and again, I was impressed by the results.

Also, the metagame is currently far from a stallfest, as some(including me) feared. In fact, I've seen it all in one day - Hail, Rain Dance, Trick Room, Sunny day, Stall, HO...

I'm loving this metagame. Especially now that it isn't so spikes oriented.
 
Dugtrio sucks when you don't know how to use it.

Stop switching it on full health Steelix people.

But when you switch into Chansey/Registeel (the few pokemon you CAN switch into) you should expect to kill them. And if P-2 like Shrang's were popular than I could see it's usages being at an all time low. (Good thing P-2 isn't popular...)


Actually, Flare, I'm going to thank you personally for giving me a new reason to play. I want to see for myself if there's truly anything with enough potential to overpower UU and hasn't yet been exploited by the masses. In a metagame like OU, that's borderline impossible to do, let alone motion for a ban afterward (fucking Salamence is still OU, what do you expect), but seeing as UU is undergoing constant changes, a little metagame revolution wouldn't hurt to liven things up.

Go for it. I doubt you'll find anything, but if you want to try something for for CB Rhyperior (very little switch ins and people still failed the Bulkiest Milotic takes over 70% from CB quake)

I doubt you'll get support though. CB is work-aroundable for sure.

What I don't get is how people can actively defend suspects (Raikou and friends) and when they get banned they pull a 180 and go "healthy metagame/no suspects)
 
Well, I wasn't so sure on Raikou by the end, but stuff like Dugtrio and Moltres I defended pretty much to the death. I'm quite sure people are grateful that they weren't voted BL because hey look, they integrate in the metagame quite well at the moment. I'm not even sure IF Raikou is still UU what the metagame would be like, since Froslass being banned is probably quite a big dent already (I mean, you're going to have double switch less as Registeel doesn't get anywhere near the residual damage).

Anyway, I was reading Doug's "Characteristics of a Desirable Metagame" and saw something interesting:
Explanation:
As they say, "Variety is the spice of life". And nowhere is that more true than in the world of gaming. Game makers discovered long ago that players crave diversity, change, and improvement. That's why most successful games are very broad, and are constantly adding new elements. For this reason, a high-quality metagame should be inviting to a wide number of people and personalities. By constantly striving for maximum variety, we can maximize the potential player base, which has the inevitable effect of increasing the number of good players, good strategies, and overall quality of competition. A varied metagame is fresh and exciting, and provides a constant source for investigation and discovery.

If we limit variety, or allow it be reduced, we effectively "shrink" all aspects of the metagame. A game with limited variety is boring to all but the most diehard participants. In a low-variety metagame, the best playing strategies become widely known and predictable, and participation wanes. For this reason, we should constantly strive for as much variety as possible. And, when limits to variety become apparent, the limits should be removed, if possible.

Issues and Concerns:
  • Too much variety is chaos.
  • Variety without quality is useless.
  • No one can master a game with too many options
  • "Wide" is sufficient, not "widest"
  • How knowledgeable should players be?
Other Comments:
This characteristic is typically underlying arguments about "centralization", or when people complain about the game being "boring".

So here, I'm wondering whether the current UU metagame has too much variety or not. Currently, I don't think it is, but we certainly have a huge influx of stuff we've never seen before unless people are pulling random stuff to get owned. Is it getting to a point where there are too many options??
 
I'm surprised no one mentioned Poliwrath as a Encore abuser. He is very easy to build a team around as what he is weak to can be exploited so easily thanks to Encore.

Actually Shrang, I believe I remember why I dislike a 'balanced' metagame. A suspect filled metagame gave you two options, build a team to abuse the suspect or build a 'anti-meta' team; essentially it gave both sides focus. A 'balanced' meta removes the focus from both sides. It is now just a player building a team and editing it until it becomes somewhat successful and in the same respect your opponents are doing the same thing. Somethings don't change, I suppose though. You can build a kick-ass team and still get mauled by a 'random' weather team.

Anyways, it is to easy to complain. Even without a centralizing focus, I still find this to be an enjoyable meta.
 
Well, I wasn't so sure on Raikou by the end, but stuff like Dugtrio and Moltres I defended pretty much to the death. I'm quite sure people are grateful that they weren't voted BL because hey look, they integrate in the metagame quite well at the moment. I'm not even sure IF Raikou is still UU what the metagame would be like, since Froslass being banned is probably quite a big dent already (I mean, you're going to have double switch less as Registeel doesn't get anywhere near the residual damage).

Anyway, I was reading Doug's "Characteristics of a Desirable Metagame" and saw something interesting:


So here, I'm wondering whether the current UU metagame has too much variety or not. Currently, I don't think it is, but we certainly have a huge influx of stuff we've never seen before unless people are pulling random stuff to get owned. Is it getting to a point where there are too many options??


just needs time to settle down. eventually some good player will find a team that is well... good and consistent, will mention it here or in the RMT or in the Smog... and lots of people will pretty much carbon copy it and the game will revolve around it.
 
I think this metagame will remain somewhat variable, but people are still testing out every 'mon possible so the variety is astounding at the moment, with the same people testing out multiple teams.

I got swept by a Curse Muk and Swords Dance Gligar team, and I crapped my pants. then I Ice Punched the fuck out of a Dodrio and was just flat out confused.
 
Damn, I was playing OU, but I got unhappy how scarfgon was always put in a position between outraging thier steel or earthquake their salamence. I say, Fuck It, im going back to uu. I come down...and I run into ten thousand immunity teams. It's a bit esier, since nothing runs outrage in UU, and most things opt for life orb over choice items, but it's still frustrating. I'm talking total little cup style. Toxicroak/poliwrath to absorb water attacks, houndoom/arcanine to absorb fire attacks, Mesprit to absorb ground, etc. If you have an attack, they have an immunity or 4x resist, or very bulky resist.
Speaking of mesprit, I hate that mesprit leads are rising in usage. I see them more than uxie. sucks for me, cause my whole team is weak to boltbeam. My only hope is to get venasaur in on a thunderbolt/grass knot, take the ice beam, and set up a light screen.
 
The metagame became so damn broad gosh, I guess after a while it will settle down and people would stick to a small group of types of teams. like seriously you'd be against stall in one match then solid offence all the way to bulky offense to rain dance..I need to relax
 
Yeah, I'm really loving this round of UU. No suspects so far, and unless someone can come up with some amazing new set, that's how it's going to remain.

Agreed. I'm really loving all the crazy experimentation I've been up to. I think it was Shrang who suggested Specs Electrode some time last round, and I'm really liking that thing. Thunderbolt is such a wonderful move :)
 
On the subject of Encore, I recently put aside my regular team for one built on Encore abusers. CB Azu is so common that it causes switches all day, making Azu a great Sub-Encore user. Jumpluff takes Encored Grass attacks, and pisses people off with fast Sleep and his own Encore. Dugtrio sets up on unfortunte Encored Electric attacks. Clefable of course is and always will be the best Encore user. The other members of the team carry an array of useful resists/immunities that lets them set up on the attack types commonly Encored.

Regarding Dugtrio, he's a huge liability if you're using him just for Chansey and Registeel, because people know exactly what to expect. I find if you're a little creative you can turn Dugtrio into a great utility/annoyer. Paired up with a SubEncore or Trick user that's weak to Electric attacks, he gets plenty of opportunity to come in and get a free Sub, SR, and kill. With Sub, Dugtrio can also play SubSeeder, providing someone else can supply the Seed. Carry Toxic, and you can inhibit the bulky Water or Uxie that comes in to break your sub. Or carry Stone Edge with Soft Sand, and the opponent will send in his Moltres/Scyther after seeing you take no LO recoil when you revenge something with EQ.
 
Like Erazor said, the over centralization has been removed. I'm seeing every play style and variation of teams you could possible think of in this metagame around. All seem to be having good success as well. Without Spikes being a factor in every single game anymore I've seen old play styles revived.
Now if only OU was like that >_>
 
You know, if you're using a Stall team, you can easily bait out Dugtrio and completely rape it. Simply put Shed Shell on Chansey and pair it up with Porygon2. The Duggy user would be like "hurr hurr hurr DIE CHANSEY", and then you'd just switch to P2 and Ice Beam it do death. The standard Defensive set takes 37.70% - 44.39% from a CB'd EQ, so you can just switch in, Recover some health and OHKO it.

Conclusion: Dugtrio sucks.

So you're suggestion involves using 2 pokemon of the same type who have basically the exact same functions (wall/recover) (this leads to all sorts of redudancy* and problems when you find yourself matched against a fighting-type, which uu has plenty of), giving one of which (chansey) a terrible item that will lead to it being killed easily by something like moltres with proper spikes/sr support instead of the far superior leftovers which makes chansey a popular and useful counter for many of the pokemon in uu?

*redundancy on a uu stall team is especially what you don't want, there are so many needed things to fill (sr, ghost, spikes, toxic spikes, leech seed, rapid spin, phazing, etc.)

yeah, dugtrio sure sucks.
 
So you're suggestion involves using 2 pokemon of the same type who have basically the exact same functions (wall/recover) (this leads to all sorts of redudancy* and problems when you find yourself matched against a fighting-type, which uu has plenty of), giving one of which (chansey) a terrible item that will lead to it being killed easily by something like moltres with proper spikes/sr support instead of the far superior leftovers which makes chansey a popular and useful counter for many of the pokemon in uu?

*redundancy on a uu stall team is especially what you don't want, there are so many needed things to fill (sr, ghost, spikes, toxic spikes, leech seed, rapid spin, phazing, etc.)

yeah, dugtrio sure sucks.

Agreed. I'm really not understanding the Dugtrio hate. It's actually very centralizing, as a stall team is forced to prepare for it or lose to it, and is absolutely brutal to anything not prepared. It's like saying that Garchomp sucks if you run two Ice Sharders with Focus Sash and spin out rocks beforehand. Well, not that extreme, but you get the general idea.

Regardless, Dugtrio is still one of the best revengers in UU. It just happens to be much less effective when countermeasures are taken. I'll bet you all that in a few weeks, when people have stopped running Dugtrio and stopped using Shed Shell, there'll be a rebirth of Dugtrio and people will be complaining about it being just too good, just like they were a few weeks ago. It's a simple metagame oscillation, and the sooner everyone understands that, the better.
 
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