-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
NP: UU - Bye Bye Bye
- Thread starter reachzero
- Start date
- Status
My love for Fire-type anti-leads got me experimenting around with this guy:
Typhlosion Anti-Lead
Typhlosion @ Life Orb
Hasty - Blaze
100 Atk / 232 SpA / 176 Spe
- Eruption
- Hidden Power Grass
- Rock Slide
- Overheat / Quick Attack
LRcanine v2. A full power Eruption does an average of 68% to 252/0 Uxie and basically OHKOes anything else that doesn't resist it. Rock Slide OHKOes 0/0 Moltres on average and the speed EVs guarantee you outspeed it. Hidden Power Grass OHKOes Omastar / Rhyperior / focus sash less Kabutops (a LO Aqua Jet does a maximum of 93.6%). 252/0 Spiritomb has a chance to be OHKOed by a full power Eruption and can't 2HKO back with a CB Shadow Sneak. Overheat can be used as a second insanely powerful STAB attack, even more so if Typhlosion gets down into Blaze range, and is the recommended option. However, Quick Attack can be used to beat Sash Alakazam, as its Psychic won't OHKO (69% max), but really don't bother because Overheat is too good to pass up.
It does a nice job of luring in bulky Waters or Chansey on a stall team similar to the way LO lead Moltres plays, but is faster, has a similar amount of firepower off the bat, and can take out opposing Moltres leads quickly. Random bulky/fast things with HP Rock preparing for Moltres won't be OHKOing Typhlosion any time soon either; it's bulk isn't the best but isn't bad for a sweeper. It's also cool when people try to absorb what they think is a scarfed Eruption with Houndoom and they then take 90% from the subsequent Rock Slide :).
You lose to Ambipom every time though so don't even stay in. Just use it as an opportunity for your Regirock / Rhyperior / Registeel / Steelix to come in an set up SR :). Sorry, it's late and I couldn't be bothered doing the whole lead matchup chart, so hopefully my wee description is enough.
Typhlosion Anti-Lead
Typhlosion @ Life Orb
Hasty - Blaze
100 Atk / 232 SpA / 176 Spe
- Eruption
- Hidden Power Grass
- Rock Slide
- Overheat / Quick Attack
LRcanine v2. A full power Eruption does an average of 68% to 252/0 Uxie and basically OHKOes anything else that doesn't resist it. Rock Slide OHKOes 0/0 Moltres on average and the speed EVs guarantee you outspeed it. Hidden Power Grass OHKOes Omastar / Rhyperior / focus sash less Kabutops (a LO Aqua Jet does a maximum of 93.6%). 252/0 Spiritomb has a chance to be OHKOed by a full power Eruption and can't 2HKO back with a CB Shadow Sneak. Overheat can be used as a second insanely powerful STAB attack, even more so if Typhlosion gets down into Blaze range, and is the recommended option. However, Quick Attack can be used to beat Sash Alakazam, as its Psychic won't OHKO (69% max), but really don't bother because Overheat is too good to pass up.
It does a nice job of luring in bulky Waters or Chansey on a stall team similar to the way LO lead Moltres plays, but is faster, has a similar amount of firepower off the bat, and can take out opposing Moltres leads quickly. Random bulky/fast things with HP Rock preparing for Moltres won't be OHKOing Typhlosion any time soon either; it's bulk isn't the best but isn't bad for a sweeper. It's also cool when people try to absorb what they think is a scarfed Eruption with Houndoom and they then take 90% from the subsequent Rock Slide :).
You lose to Ambipom every time though so don't even stay in. Just use it as an opportunity for your Regirock / Rhyperior / Registeel / Steelix to come in an set up SR :). Sorry, it's late and I couldn't be bothered doing the whole lead matchup chart, so hopefully my wee description is enough.
My love for Fire-type anti-leads got me experimenting around with this guy:
Typhlosion Anti-Lead
Typhlosion @ Life Orb
Hasty - Blaze
100 Atk / 232 SpA / 176 Spe
- Eruption
- Hidden Power Grass
- Rock Slide
- Overheat / Quick Attack
LRcanine v2. A full power Eruption does an average of 68% to 252/0 Uxie and basically OHKOes anything else that doesn't resist it. Rock Slide OHKOes 0/0 Moltres on average and the speed EVs guarantee you outspeed it. Hidden Power Grass OHKOes Omastar / Rhyperior / focus sash less Kabutops (a LO Aqua Jet does a maximum of 93.6%). 252/0 Spiritomb has a chance to be OHKOed by a full power Eruption and can't 2HKO back with a CB Shadow Sneak. Overheat can be used as a second insanely powerful STAB attack, even more so if Typhlosion gets down into Blaze range, and is the recommended option. However, Quick Attack can be used to beat Sash Alakazam, as its Psychic won't OHKO (69% max), but really don't bother because Overheat is too good to pass up.
It does a nice job of luring in bulky Waters or Chansey on a stall team similar to the way LO lead Moltres plays, but is faster, has a similar amount of firepower off the bat, and can take out opposing Moltres leads quickly. Random bulky/fast things with HP Rock preparing for Moltres won't be OHKOing Typhlosion any time soon either; it's bulk isn't the best but isn't bad for a sweeper. It's also cool when people try to absorb what they think is a scarfed Eruption with Houndoom and they then take 90% from the subsequent Rock Slide :).
You lose to Ambipom every time though so don't even stay in. Just use it as an opportunity for your Regirock / Rhyperior / Registeel / Steelix to come in an set up SR :). Sorry, it's late and I couldn't be bothered doing the whole lead matchup chart, so hopefully my wee description is enough.
I love your sets. You keep coming with epic ones. Seriously, first Aggron and now Typhlosion? This looks mad fun too. (way to reinvent the Typhlosion)
Legacy raider has done it again! I'm this thing will be all over the place now. ~.~
damn, no one prepares for life orb milotic anymore. Timid lets him outspeed those modest moltres that think, "gee, i hit him on the switchin with air slash! now i outspeed, since all milotic are defensive, and KO with hp: grass. *Milotic used hydro pump* what the fuck you hacked my shoddy!" ragequit
Seriously though, works really well. ice beam slams those venasaur after a few switchins to spikes/rocks, hidden power those waters. Most people think their defensive milotics outstall mine, since hp:electric only does 40%. HP has twice as much PP as recover ;)
Seriously though, works really well. ice beam slams those venasaur after a few switchins to spikes/rocks, hidden power those waters. Most people think their defensive milotics outstall mine, since hp:electric only does 40%. HP has twice as much PP as recover ;)
My love for Fire-type anti-leads got me experimenting around with this guy:
Typhlosion Anti-Lead
Typhlosion @ Life Orb
Hasty - Blaze
100 Atk / 232 SpA / 176 Spe
- Eruption
- Hidden Power Grass
- Rock Slide
- Overheat / Quick Attack
LRcanine v2. A full power Eruption does an average of 68% to 252/0 Uxie and basically OHKOes anything else that doesn't resist it. Rock Slide OHKOes 0/0 Moltres on average and the speed EVs guarantee you outspeed it. Hidden Power Grass OHKOes Omastar / Rhyperior / focus sash less Kabutops (a LO Aqua Jet does a maximum of 93.6%). 252/0 Spiritomb has a chance to be OHKOed by a full power Eruption and can't 2HKO back with a CB Shadow Sneak. Overheat can be used as a second insanely powerful STAB attack, even more so if Typhlosion gets down into Blaze range, and is the recommended option. However, Quick Attack can be used to beat Sash Alakazam, as its Psychic won't OHKO (69% max), but really don't bother because Overheat is too good to pass up.
It does a nice job of luring in bulky Waters or Chansey on a stall team similar to the way LO lead Moltres plays, but is faster, has a similar amount of firepower off the bat, and can take out opposing Moltres leads quickly. Random bulky/fast things with HP Rock preparing for Moltres won't be OHKOing Typhlosion any time soon either; it's bulk isn't the best but isn't bad for a sweeper. It's also cool when people try to absorb what they think is a scarfed Eruption with Houndoom and they then take 90% from the subsequent Rock Slide :).
You lose to Ambipom every time though so don't even stay in. Just use it as an opportunity for your Regirock / Rhyperior / Registeel / Steelix to come in an set up SR :). Sorry, it's late and I couldn't be bothered doing the whole lead matchup chart, so hopefully my wee description is enough.
That seems like an awesome lead. It's going to fool pretty much everything into thinking it's Scarfed, so people will switch to niche counters (like Houndoom, as you mentioned) and subsequently get owned. The only problem I see with this is Ambipom - even if you do switch out to a wall, it's very likely that the wall will simply get Taunted, which pretty much cripples them, especially Registeel. Considering that Ambipom is the most popular UU lead by far, the set has a bit of a weakness. Other than that, it's great. All the lurkers are gonna be using this set now xD
^true. I'm just saying that a Taunted wall (a la Registeel) is U-turn fodder, allowing Ambipom to switch out and bring in something dangerous like DDGatr or SD Sceptile. However, only walls like Registeel and Uxie have this problem, Rhyperior/Steelix/Regirock can still KO it.
LO does seem counter productive. How about Charcoal or a Lum Berry, to feint Scarf even better.
@LR:I like it. I think Focus Punch deserves a slash in the last slot for hitting Chansey on the switch. I think it might OHKO with Life Orb and the Attack EV's, but giving up second STAB doesn't seem worth it, unless you want to set up another Special sweeper who hates Chansey.
Since everyone assumes Sceptile is offensive SubSeed nowadays, I've been running SD Sceptile with hazards and it just massacres everything. I have no idea while people don't use it instead of SDVenu. Common walls like Milotic, Slowbro, and Donphan are weak to its STAB and that Speed means only Swellow or lolElectrode can revenge it as long as the opponents Scarf Poke is dead(unless the opponent wants to risk the Speed tie with their Zam).
Now usually when people run SD Sceptile Leaf Blade and Earthquake is a given, but what should the last slot be? Most people think they should run Rock Slide so they can hit Moltres and Altaria, while others run X-Scissor to help deal with bulky Grass-types. I've found a middle ground that works extremely well, Double-Edge. +2 Earthquake misses out on the OHKO on offensive Venu iirc but with Double-Edge you have a chance to OHKO it with rocks. I run an Omastar lead so I always have hazards up. This is assuming the item is Lefties/Lum but with LO it's much easier to accomplish. Double-Edge also OHKO's all Moltres after SR and 2HKO's Defensive Altaria even if you haven't put up SR yet. SD Leafeon is always 2HKO'd but you're gonna need SR and a layer of spikes to guarantee it on the Wish support variants. The damage is a bit of a dissapointment on Tangrowth...does 30-35% on 252/252 Impish Tangrowth but physical Grass-types aren't getting passed Tangrowth anyway.
Anyways I recommend people give it a try because SDSceptile is effective and surprises many opponents nowadays, and it also fucks up stall so that's a plus.
Since everyone assumes Sceptile is offensive SubSeed nowadays, I've been running SD Sceptile with hazards and it just massacres everything. I have no idea while people don't use it instead of SDVenu. Common walls like Milotic, Slowbro, and Donphan are weak to its STAB and that Speed means only Swellow or lolElectrode can revenge it as long as the opponents Scarf Poke is dead(unless the opponent wants to risk the Speed tie with their Zam).
Now usually when people run SD Sceptile Leaf Blade and Earthquake is a given, but what should the last slot be? Most people think they should run Rock Slide so they can hit Moltres and Altaria, while others run X-Scissor to help deal with bulky Grass-types. I've found a middle ground that works extremely well, Double-Edge. +2 Earthquake misses out on the OHKO on offensive Venu iirc but with Double-Edge you have a chance to OHKO it with rocks. I run an Omastar lead so I always have hazards up. This is assuming the item is Lefties/Lum but with LO it's much easier to accomplish. Double-Edge also OHKO's all Moltres after SR and 2HKO's Defensive Altaria even if you haven't put up SR yet. SD Leafeon is always 2HKO'd but you're gonna need SR and a layer of spikes to guarantee it on the Wish support variants. The damage is a bit of a dissapointment on Tangrowth...does 30-35% on 252/252 Impish Tangrowth but physical Grass-types aren't getting passed Tangrowth anyway.
Anyways I recommend people give it a try because SDSceptile is effective and surprises many opponents nowadays, and it also fucks up stall so that's a plus.
Thats after it attacks, by then turn 1 has gone by and hopefully a hole has been blown in the opponents team from the switch they made.
I don't think Milotic or Chansey care if Eruption is boosted by LO or not.
Hey guys, what about Glalie as a lead?
252 HP/52 Defense/204 Special Defense spread lets you survive even Alakazam's Focus Blast once. Even without Special Attack EVs, Ice Beam does 41.1% - 48.6% to Lead Ambipom, 2HKOing with Life Orb recoil, though rolling low damage can mean you need two LO Recoil hits. Inner Focus means that they can't flinch you with Fake Out, and their most powerful move against you is Low Kick at 80.2% - 94.5%, not enough to 1HKO.
You can also run Focus Sash instead of Lefties. If you do, try a spread with more defense and Special Attack: A 252 HP/160 Defense/96 Sp. ATK EV spread gives you 46.2% - 54.5% against Ambipom, for example.
Note that Sash Glalie wins against Alakazam if Alakazam uses Taunt, but loses otherwise. Ice Beam does 43.3% - 51.6% and Shadow Ball does 49.2% - 57.9%, both clean 2HKOs against Alakazam, while Sash means you survive Focus Blast(Which actually has a veeeeery small chance not to OHKO you at 97.8% - 115.4%).
Omastar Spiking leads hurt you, but you can run Taunt or Hidden Power Grass over Explosion to game against that. HP Grass does 66.3% - 79.1% against Omastar and you outspeed it, meaning it gets one layer of spikes maximum and you keep your Sash.
Regirock leads are annoying, as Stone Edges does 56% - 66.5% and you can't do anything back, but you can switch or set up two layers of Spikes in front of it. If it uses Rock Slide then you're in luck, as it only does 41.8% - 50% to you. If it uses Stealth Rocks, you get down all three layers.
Rhyperior leads kill you if they run Rock Blast, breaking your sash and killing you same turn on Shoddy. If they run Stone Edge, though, you Sash and survive the 94.5% - 112.1% Stone Edge and 2HKO back with 57% - 67.7% Ice Beam. Even better if they set up Rocks instead.
Any slower leads can be handled by getting up 2-3 layers of spikes. Choice Scarf Moltres leads are annoying and the main reason to run Explosion: you do 91% - 107.2% to it. Note that Moltres has to lock itself into Fire Blast if you lead, as Air Slash only does 43.7% - 51.4%, so you can take advantage of that too.
So, final recommended set if anyone wants to try, I've been testing it a little...
Glalie @ Focus Sash
252 HP/160 Defense/96 Special Attack
Bold Nature
Ability: Inner Focus
Spikes
Ice Beam
Shadow Ball
HP Grass / Taunt / Explosion
252 HP/52 Defense/204 Special Defense spread lets you survive even Alakazam's Focus Blast once. Even without Special Attack EVs, Ice Beam does 41.1% - 48.6% to Lead Ambipom, 2HKOing with Life Orb recoil, though rolling low damage can mean you need two LO Recoil hits. Inner Focus means that they can't flinch you with Fake Out, and their most powerful move against you is Low Kick at 80.2% - 94.5%, not enough to 1HKO.
You can also run Focus Sash instead of Lefties. If you do, try a spread with more defense and Special Attack: A 252 HP/160 Defense/96 Sp. ATK EV spread gives you 46.2% - 54.5% against Ambipom, for example.
Note that Sash Glalie wins against Alakazam if Alakazam uses Taunt, but loses otherwise. Ice Beam does 43.3% - 51.6% and Shadow Ball does 49.2% - 57.9%, both clean 2HKOs against Alakazam, while Sash means you survive Focus Blast(Which actually has a veeeeery small chance not to OHKO you at 97.8% - 115.4%).
Omastar Spiking leads hurt you, but you can run Taunt or Hidden Power Grass over Explosion to game against that. HP Grass does 66.3% - 79.1% against Omastar and you outspeed it, meaning it gets one layer of spikes maximum and you keep your Sash.
Regirock leads are annoying, as Stone Edges does 56% - 66.5% and you can't do anything back, but you can switch or set up two layers of Spikes in front of it. If it uses Rock Slide then you're in luck, as it only does 41.8% - 50% to you. If it uses Stealth Rocks, you get down all three layers.
Rhyperior leads kill you if they run Rock Blast, breaking your sash and killing you same turn on Shoddy. If they run Stone Edge, though, you Sash and survive the 94.5% - 112.1% Stone Edge and 2HKO back with 57% - 67.7% Ice Beam. Even better if they set up Rocks instead.
Any slower leads can be handled by getting up 2-3 layers of spikes. Choice Scarf Moltres leads are annoying and the main reason to run Explosion: you do 91% - 107.2% to it. Note that Moltres has to lock itself into Fire Blast if you lead, as Air Slash only does 43.7% - 51.4%, so you can take advantage of that too.
So, final recommended set if anyone wants to try, I've been testing it a little...
Glalie @ Focus Sash
252 HP/160 Defense/96 Special Attack
Bold Nature
Ability: Inner Focus
Spikes
Ice Beam
Shadow Ball
HP Grass / Taunt / Explosion
Cloyster can be Faked Out, then 2HKO'd by Low Kick or Taunted to useless much more easily. Alternately, Fake Out + U-Turn to Hitmontop means 33.9% - 40.0% damage from Ambipom. Hitmontop now KOs Cloyster, tying in speed so only 50% chance of getting up a second set of Spikes(Assuming you weren't Taunted).
Cloyster can't do anything to Hitmontop, while Glalie can at least explode for 61.2% - 72%(After Intimidate, of course). Since it outspeeds, you could even Ice Beam for 26% - 30.9% then Explode for a KO. If they U-Turned from Ambipom to Hitmontop, then Hitmontop will always take the Ice Beam and be KO'd. Even if Ambipom doesn't switch, Glalie does more damage faster at no cost.
Cloyster always loses to Alakazam, only doing 40.9% - 48.8% with Ice Beam and OHKO'd by Focus Blast, 2HKO'd by Psychic and Taunt bait.
Cloyster will always lose to Omastar, while Glalie can run Hidden Power Grass to win the matchup.
Scarf Moltres can defeat Cloyster with Air Slash, allowing it more of a chance to Parahax away one layer of Spikes and making it harder to switch.
I know I'm forgetting some leads, but Glalie generally does better IMHO then Cloyster unless you want Toxic Spikes.
No Ambipom lead has Low Kick anymore.
Cloyster has much MUCH higher def.
Glaile also loses to Alakazam.
What you're saying about Scarf Moltres beating it? Fire Blast murders Glaile.
Not to say Cloystr has Rock Blast.
Surf says otherwise against Omastar.
And finally: Cloyster has Explosion too, and it comes from a higher base attack. And Hitmontop never runs speed, meaning a little speed investiment means you can just Explode on it, since Cloyster speed ties with Hitmontop.
Sorry, but Glaile is way outclassed as a lead.
Cloyster has much MUCH higher def.
Glaile also loses to Alakazam.
What you're saying about Scarf Moltres beating it? Fire Blast murders Glaile.
Not to say Cloystr has Rock Blast.
Surf says otherwise against Omastar.
And finally: Cloyster has Explosion too, and it comes from a higher base attack. And Hitmontop never runs speed, meaning a little speed investiment means you can just Explode on it, since Cloyster speed ties with Hitmontop.
Sorry, but Glaile is way outclassed as a lead.
The thing is, if you're using a spike lead, it would be nice if it, you know, put down some spikes. You don't win against Ambipom because it Taunts you and goes on its merry way. You don't win against Alakazam because attacking back lets it 2HKO you with Psychic, and the alternative is a single layer of spikes. You don't really win against anything, and you're left with no spikes and a pokémon with poopy stats and even poopier typing.
Glalie faces exactly the same non-Froslass syndrome as any other lead. I mean, any of the Spikers can set up if your opponent lets them, but they're extremely easy to stop and require no extensive effort whatsoever. I haven't even tried Spikestacking at all this round because of how depressing the prospect of using Cloyster or Omastar is.
I can definitely see where people are coming from when they talk about too much variety in the metagame. I've seen a Trickscarf Missy lead today, which was interesting. I've also seen an Agility passed to Glaceon and a scarfed Medicham.
Also, I'm apparently super-weak to Venomoth and Hitmonchan. News to me.
Also, I'm apparently super-weak to Venomoth and Hitmonchan. News to me.
- Status