Salamence Theorymonning

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I must say that I am now all for the banning of Salamence. I generally disapprove of the excessive banning of things, because it does appear as though another pokemon simply takes its place, but I quite firmly believe that Mence needs to be banned for almost no other reason than that it is more broken than Latias ever was. It can play the role of a wallbreaker more potent than the Specs Latias set that likely resulted in the ban, but can also suddenly set up and sweep a slightly weakened or unprepared team. There is almost no way to tell the difference between the two sets until it attacks or sets up. The argument as to "you can revenge-kill it" applied much more to Latias than it did to Mence, since Latias could be prevented from switching out and coming back later. Without very good prediction, revenge-killing is likely all you can manage against a Salamence, since almost everything faster can be OHKOed, and almost everything slower 2HKOed. On the off-chance that you failed to set SR up, this can easily mean GG in no time.

Edit: just want to make it clear that I know why Latias was tested before Mence

I suspect that those of you who think you can deal with Mence are probably seeing it played badly. Dragon dancing mindlessly is not going to get anyone anywhere, and nor is spamming Draco Meteor mindlessly. Against an intelligent, experienced player, switching your Mamoswine or Scarf Latias directly into Salamence will see a very high probability of Mamoswine or Latias being OHKOed, possibly even by a Dragon Dance version.

Nonetheless, Latias was a good revenge-killer of Salamence and will as such only be adding to Mence's brokeness as it leaves OU.

I've got a lot of teams to rebuild.

I know this question might be getting off track with the mence thing, but can somebody explain to me what makes a pokemon OU? I always thought OU pokemon are OU because they do there job the best. Mence is a Sweeper, and he does his job the best. Blissey is a tank, and she does her job the best. If weavile isn't a good Sweeper...Then whats the point of making him OU?
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It's all based on usage statistics (in relation to UU/BL) and suspect testing (in relation to Ubers). Weavile is OU because people use it for some reason.
 
Erazor said:
I'd like to ask you guys something - what does Salamence do that justifies it being Uber, but not Dragonite?

Now, let's see. The Speed makes a difference I guess - but Dragonite's Mixed and Bulky Dragon Dancer sets are as good as, if not better than, those of Salamence. Sure Mence does the offensive DD way better, but I think we can agree that offensive DD is easier to kill than other Salamence sets.

And, before you go "INTIMIDATE" - Intimidate only works on the switch in. If someone like Jirachi or Scizor comes in to revenge, Intimidate isn't helping you there.

Based on these factors, I believe that Salamence is OU. Sure, the bulky dancer is hard to kill, especially if Scizor is your designated check, but Dragonite's bulky dancer is just as good.

Please tell me if I'm wrong, or if I'm missing something here. Thanks.
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Its basically the speed that keeps dnite from being broken. He can be revenged by better scarfers (rotom, flygon, jirachi) and his special attack is lower. Honestly, im not too sure that dnite isnt broken, its just that he isnt used much with mence being around. If he does turn out to be broken later then we will ban him too. (Although its highly unlikely and stall will run rampent at that point)
 
S.T.A.R.S. said:
I know this question might be getting off track with the mence thing, but can somebody explain to me what makes a pokemon OU? I always thought OU pokemon are OU because they do there job the best. Mence is a Sweeper, and he does his job the best. Blissey is a tank, and she does her job the best. If weavile isn't a good Sweeper...Then whats the point of making him OU?
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This is quoted from the thread "The OU Algorithm Revisited" in the Policy Review forum.

First of all, an explanation of how the OU algorithm currently works is in order. What it does is the following: if a Pokemon has a probability of at least 0.5 of being present in one in twenty teams, then it is considered OU; otherwise, it is not.
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This probability is calculated using stats such as these.
 
Also, I would like to say one more thing before I go to bed...Aren't you guys waiting a bit late to ban some of these pokemon? He is going to be banned for a little of 4 months, and by that time, Black and White is going to be out, and, like all new pokemon games do, change the entire Tier list? Why wait until now to ban something thats been such a huge threat for years?
 
Ladies Man said:
Like someone else said if you have to slap an ice shard user on your team just to deal with mence he is uber.
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It's not like Salamence is the only reason someone would choose to pack Ice Shard on their team.

S.T.A.R.S. said:
Also, I would like to say one more thing before I go to bed...Aren't you guys waiting a bit late to ban some of these pokemon? He is going to be banned for a little of 4 months, and by that time, Black and White is going to be out, and, like all new pokemon games do, change the entire Tier list? Why wait until now to ban something thats been such a huge threat for years?
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This raises an interesting point, actually.

Are some bans going to be scaled back when B&W hit? FWIW, I think any non-legendary ban should have to be rejustified with each new update to the game. Maybe not for Wobb, unless something major that directly affects him changes.
 
S.T.A.R.S. said:
Also, I would like to say one more thing before I go to bed...Aren't you guys waiting a bit late to ban some of these pokemon? He is going to be banned for a little of 4 months, and by that time, Black and White is going to be out, and, like all new pokemon games do, change the entire Tier list? Why wait until now to ban something thats been such a huge threat for years?
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The tier list will still be used for fourth generation play which our simulators will support.
 
Sixfortyfive said:
It's not like Salamence is the only reason someone would choose to pack Ice Shard on their team.
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What else would we use it for? Flygon cant boost his speed, and the scarfer cant ko walls like swampert. Dragonite can be revenged by a scarf rotom or jirachi (neither of witch are reliable mence checks).
 
Salamence is effing hard to predict. The scenarios you guys have been discussing are all correct, all of them can happen with the right prediction. It's just hard to do all of those because of Salamence's versatility.

The main counter I use so far is Porygon2 which I EVd in sp.def and hp, just about enough to survive 2 draco meteors or draco meteor + outrage. Then I proceed with Ice Beam or Recover. Choice scarfed Salamence will get raped by Porygon2, in my experience.
 
Why are all these Salamence running Substitute/Roost/Dragon Dance/Outrage/Dragon Claw/Earthquake/Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse/Hydro Pump/Fire Blast/Brick Break @ Life Orb, Leftovers, and Yache Berry?

Mence is definitely a huge threat, but its been that way for years. It's gimped by basically every status (Toxic being the least effective) and is weak to Stealth Rock. However powerful Outrage is, it still locks Mence into an attack.

Mence doesn't have a lot of counters, but by the same token it can't switch into prepared teams. Latias could easily defeat Ice Beam Blissey because of the huge SpD as well as Tricking Scarf/Specs. With it gone and Mence being the most dangerous Dragon around, plus the new love for Taunt + Toxic Gliscor tearing up stall, there are few reasons not to consider Ice Beam Blissey again. It worked fairly well in the past (pre-Latias) and it still works now for any Mence that tries to use it as setup bait. Mence almost relies on Life Orb for that breaking power, Yache Berry only does so much. Mence isn't like Garchomp who could hide behind Sub and Sandstorm to boost itself up reliably.

Hell, I'm so used to Mence spamming Draco Meteor back in the day that I always switched in Blissey. Worst case scenario is CB Mence, whose Outrage Bold Blissey still survives. Once you know what the Mence is it's a simple matter to take care of it.

Now that Latias is gone NPApe is probably coming back. With SR down Mence cannot survive +2 LO Fire Blast, and Ape is faster than Mence to boot.

In short, Salamence was not the only pokemon that benefited from the removal of Latias. The removal of a strong defensive Trickscarfer and support Pokemon with Latias' key resistances has opened up previous viable avenues that were made impractical by its inclusion.
 
Erazor said:
good argument about dragonite
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well since for me, the mix set has always been the most deadly. Mence has higher speciel attack. Superpower is nice but isn't that good. As you mentioned, the speed is nice. iirc, that 1 base attack point actually achieves some KO'es.

Plus, he looks cooler. Would we have banned garchomp if he wasn't the coolest lookin dawg ever? nope.
 
Porygon 2 Does seem like a Decent Mence counter. It has a useful ability, Which is helpful in Porygon2 case, And it can survive enough hits from mence to 0HKO it with no problem and with Trace, to copy intimdate, it CAN switch into a Outrage.
 
Deck Knight said:
Why are all these Salamence running Substitute/Roost/Dragon Dance/Outrage/Dragon Claw/Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse/Hydro Pump/Fire Blast/Brick Break @ Life Orb, Leftovers, and Yache Berry?

Mence is definitely a huge threat, but its been that way for years. It's gimped by basically every status (Toxic being the least effective) and is weak to Stealth Rock. However powerful Outrage is, it still locks Mence into an attack.

Mence doesn't have a lot of counters, but by the same token it can't switch into prepared teams. Latias could easily defeat Ice Beam Blissey because of the huge SpD as well as Tricking Scarf/Specs. With it gone and Mence being the most dangerous Dragon around, plus the new love for Taunt + Toxic Gliscor tearing up stall, there are few reasons not to consider Ice Beam Blissey again. It worked fairly well in the past (pre-Latias) and it still works now for any Mence that tries to use it as setup bait. Mence almost relies on Life Orb for that breaking power, Yache Berry only does so much. Mence isn't like Garchomp who could hide behind Sub and Sandstorm to boost itself up reliably.

Hell, I'm so used to Mence spamming Draco Meteor back in the day that I always switched in Blissey. Worst case scenario is CB Mence, whose Outrage Bold Blissey still survives. Once you know what the Mence is it's a simple matter to take care of it.

Now that Latias is gone NPApe is probably coming back. With SR down Mence cannot survive +2 LO Fire Blast, and Ape is faster than Mence to boot.

In short, Salamence was not the only pokemon that benefited from the removal of Latias. The removal of a strong defensive Trickscarfer and support Pokemon with Latias' key resistances has opened up previous viable avenues that were made impractical by its inclusion.
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Correct me if im wrong, but i think the only 2 sets that could be concidered broken are the classic mixmence set and the dd set. The other sets were mentioned to show how versitale it is(?). Also, mixmence is still not simple to counter even if you know the set, since it turns into a guessing game as to witch move it will use (can 2hko almost anything in the game). And id argue that mence is uber even if latias stayed.


Uberiffic said:
well since for me, the mix set has always been the most deadly. Mence has higher speciel attack. Superpower is nice but isn't that good. As you mentioned, the speed is nice. iirc, that 1 base attack point actually achieves some KO'es.

Plus, he looks cooler. Would we have banned garchomp if he wasn't the coolest lookin dawg ever? nope.
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1 base point might as well be 0. Dnite can literally do more damage from the physical side every game, because the damage formula has a huge range of damage it can do.

maknaedik said:
Salamence is effing hard to predict. The scenarios you guys have been discussing are all correct, all of them can happen with the right prediction. It's just hard to do all of those because of Salamence's versatility.

The main counter I use so far is Porygon2 which I EVd in sp.def and hp, just about enough to survive 2 draco meteors or draco meteor + outrage. Then I proceed with Ice Beam or Recover. Choice scarfed Salamence will get raped by Porygon2, in my experience.
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Im pretty sure no such spread exists. If so please post it. I did a calc earlier and standard p2 takes over 90% from draco meteor.

S.T.A.R.S. said:
Lmao thats fucking funny! Porygon 2 is the next Mence Killer!
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No, its not. It can check dd mence but gets completely raped by mixmence. Like most other checks.
 
I woke up today saying "alright time to EV train my Latias"
Logged on to smogon....whats this....latias finally got moved to ubers! YES!.....wait...aww shit. All that EV training for nothing. So i think to myself,"next best thing is Mence" EV train it to lvl 70 getting ready to pump it with Candies,log on to smogon to check up on the Lati discussion and stumble upon this thread. Just great.

Anyway, Mence is broken IMHO. I run him for wifi battles locally at school and everyone rages when i manage to set up just one DD, at 2 they just DC. Then everyone(some 45 people) started running ice sharders like CB weaville and CB mamo to counter(lol they dont counter, id love to see them switch in on +1LO anything from mence). At that point, choice locked into gay ass IceShard is just lolfodder as i switch in my Scizor and get a free SD.

How much of a hassle is it pinpointing exactly what set mence is running?
Your either going to lose 1 guy in the process, or your team is going to get weakened.severely weakened. Versatility ftw

Why would everyone like to see mence banished? likewise, why would everyone like to see him remain OU?
 
I really think porygon2 can counter a lot of pokemon in OU. Remember the time when it used to be an OU at the same time with Porygon-z? It can counter gyarados and physical salamence via intimidate, scarfed heatran via flash fire, vaporeon via water absorb (hit it back with thunderbolt), jolteon via volt absorb and maybe scizor via technician (use a HP fire with 60 Base Power rofl. I'm not so sure if it can survive a 2 CB BP).
 
maknaedik said:
I really think porygon2 can counter a lot of pokemon in OU. Remember the time when it used to be an OU at the same time with Porygon-z? It can counter gyarados and physical salamence via intimidate, scarfed heatran via flash fire, vaporeon via water absorb (hit it back with thunderbolt), jolteon via volt absorb and maybe scizor via technician (use a HP fire with 60 Base Power rofl. I'm not so sure if it can survive a 2 CB BP).
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Im not 100% sure but i dont he was ever ou. Close but thats it. I think the only reason hes not ou is cb scizor every where...oh and breloom X(
 
maknaedik said:
I really think porygon2 can counter a lot of pokemon in OU. Remember the time when it used to be an OU at the same time with Porygon-z? It can counter gyarados and physical salamence via intimidate, scarfed heatran via flash fire, vaporeon via water absorb (hit it back with thunderbolt), jolteon via volt absorb and maybe scizor via technician (use a HP fire with 60 Base Power rofl. I'm not so sure if it can survive a 2 CB BP).
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He is right, Porygon 2 is a great counter to MANY pokemon in the OU tier. I don't know why he is over looked, but He is great. He can put a end to ANY and ALL of mence's sets. He can switch into both draco meteor AND Outrage, And 0HKO mence without a problem. You guys was asking for a counter, you have your counter. The next thing your probably going to ask is "WHO ACTUALLY USES PORYGON 2?!!?"
 
@Ladies Man Yes he did, but he didn't last. I was actually shocked the first time to see a non-fully evolved pokemon in OU.

@all Sorry about that "it can survive 2 draco meteors" that probably is something else that carries it as well. My bad.
 
S.T.A.R.S. said:
He is right, Porygon 2 is a great counter to MANY pokemon in the OU tier. I don't know why he is over looked, but He is great. He can put a end to ANY and ALL of mence's sets. He can switch into both draco meteor AND Outrage, And 0HKO mence without a problem. You guys was asking for a counter, you have your counter. The next thing your probably going to ask is "WHO ACTUALLY USES PORYGON 2?!!?"
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Except porygon2 dies to draco meteor 42.1% of the time. Maknaedik was mistaken, there is no such spread that can live 2 draco meteors, or a draco meteor and an outrage.

Edit-Thats what i mean too lol. I should word it better.
 
Now I knew why I miscalculated. My friend uses the same moveset FireBlast/Earthquake/Draco Meteor/Outrage @choice scarf but he did have a different spread and it's IVs are not maxed. That's why I thought I can survive 2 draco meteors.

With surviving a draco meteor followed by an outrage, I think I experienced it with Kingdra and not Salamence. He oftenly use a dragon team that's mabye the reason I kinda confused.
 
I can't believe it. First Lati, now Mence. I can see about Lati, but Mence isn't justified. Why not ban Gyarados? After one DD, it's already terminating your team say your scarfer is dead. You have to use an elec attack to kill, otherwise it can shove off hits.
Also I hope people won't be crying soon because DRAGONITE IS TOO BULKY OMG BAN TO UBER! Because he survived an Ice Beam.
Salamence isn't justified in Ubers. It was in the OU metagame for.. 5 years now? Or 6 IIRC R&S came at 2004.
I don't see a good reason Mence should be Uber. I still wait to see a quality thread like this:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36558
To actually give a reason Mence should be Uber.
 
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