All I have to say:
PORYGON2 FTW
PORYGON2 FTW
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Salamence Theorymonning
- Thread starter SJCrew
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I'm pretty sure Choice Jirachi can switch in while Mence does DD or Outrage, and then Iron Head, hoping to flinch and going first, which usually happens through my experience... especially when Salamence runs Naughty, which means you will outspeed Salamence...
It doesn't need Shed Shell, Magnezone usage has been dropping a little lately...
Isn't that what priority is for?
Also, to all of you who say letting a Pokemon die in exchange of Salamence dying is bad, its not totally bad, especially bringing in a Pokemon who is almost dead and has done what its job is (take a Swampert lead with 20% health left) couldn't you just switch that in, let it die, and bring in a revenge killer, and kill Salamence off, especially how DDMence is usually one of the last Pokemon on a team, if not the last?
A smart Salamence player will scout the enemy team for counters, throwing Fire Blasts and Earthquakes out to pick off and lure frail scarfers.
Weavile takes 73.67% - 86.83% from a +0 Earthquake, a OHKO 87% of the time with Stealth Rocks and 100% of the time with Sandstorm.
That means Weavile has to perfectly predict a Dragon Dance or come in after Salamence kills something. Not to mention Weavile sucks as a stand alone pokemon.
Well sure, you could let it fodder the hit, but thats assuming mence chooses to stay in after you switch. If SR isn't up, its a free switch-in as much as it so chooses.
And certainly, if it is a "final sweeping" Salamence, the team would support its optimal sweep, thus getting rid of SR and making life easy for it to set up and sweep.
The what?
Draco Meteor from Mixmence vs 252 HP 0 SpD Porygon2: 73% - 86.1%
Idk, for some reason, my team never loses more than one poke to mence. I run Porygon-2 sometimes, but I find my Infernape, Starmie, Jirachi, etc. killing it a lot...
Also, for those of you saying dragon is a better STAB than Fire AND Fighting (lol Aerial Ace)
http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue3/attacking_types
Fire is #1 at 33.77%, Fighting is #6 at 29.93%, and Dragon is #12 with 28.20%
And don't argue that Salamence is stronger. Infernape is initially faster than the 'average' of 100, so +2 Atk or SpA means it actually hits harder than DD Mence (just like how Luke's CC is stronger than Mence's Outrage), and the +1 speed Mence gets only lets it outrun gengar/jolt/starmie/scarf
Draco Meteor from Mixmence vs 252 HP 0 SpD Porygon2: 73% - 86.1%
Idk, for some reason, my team never loses more than one poke to mence. I run Porygon-2 sometimes, but I find my Infernape, Starmie, Jirachi, etc. killing it a lot...
Also, for those of you saying dragon is a better STAB than Fire AND Fighting (lol Aerial Ace)
http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue3/attacking_types
Fire is #1 at 33.77%, Fighting is #6 at 29.93%, and Dragon is #12 with 28.20%
And don't argue that Salamence is stronger. Infernape is initially faster than the 'average' of 100, so +2 Atk or SpA means it actually hits harder than DD Mence (just like how Luke's CC is stronger than Mence's Outrage), and the +1 speed Mence gets only lets it outrun gengar/jolt/starmie/scarf
Weavile isn't a counter to Salamence, just to clear that up, it's a revenge-killer...
Let's just ban every damn dragon around. It's clear that the general disposition here is that any dragon-type pokemon with the ability to dish out offensive damage coupled with a respectable speed stat should be moved to the uber tier. Just like a couple of years ago with Garchomp, recently with Latias (without Soul Dew), and in the future, Salamence.
Like WHAT? +1 Mence 2HKOs everything in the game easily.
Also Epic Cherub is right on the money as far as Weavile is concerned.
Also Scizor being able to revenge SOME Mence sets means nothing. So One Pokemon can revenge it if it's running LO, you have Rocks up, and it's already killed something of yours. Also if you roll near max damage and it's Outrage locked. Seriously. You need Sand and something to die for Scizor to reliably revenge Mence and even then it's as easy as swapping out. Same with Weavile.
@Zelrio: Flygon DNite, Kingdra, and Altaria are in no way broken Pokemon and shouldn't be banned.
Salamence CanNot 2HKO a gimmick Impish Skarmory 252 HP/252 Def if the Salamence has EQ over Fire Blast... and leftovers
I dont care what that chart says. Dragon is easily the best stab in the game. You want neutral coverage in your stab move and supereffective coverage in your coverage moves. Dragon has that and pairs EXTREMELY well with fire and ground(or fighting).
Ok luke hits harder. He has counters and you dont need a scarf 101+speed poke to revenge him :/. The only scarfer you listed thats any good is starmie. Are you saying were forced to run him just to dea with dd mence?
Kingdra and flygon are here to stay i guarentee that
Im gonna sig that :)
Standard Mence always runs Fire Blast and Life Orb. It OHKOs Skarm. Also Standard Skarm has never run 252/252 and currently runs SpDef in lieu of Defense. Mence OHKOs it.
@Very: That could possibly be the dumbest thing said in this topic... Not the Breloom bit, but that stuff about the cover of a game. Let's make Blastoise, Charizard, and Venasaur Ubers then. And we'll take Arceus down. And Lati@s.
@PI-Dimension: Okay P2 takes more than 70% from Meteor and Rocks damage. Then next turn it does...what, exactly? It's finished off by any of Mence's moves and does nothing to threaten it as it's slower. P2 does nothing to MixMence even if it's not being OHKOd (it is OHKOd by old MixMence). Infernape takes more residual damage, has STABs that exclusively have inferior accuracy or do stat/HP recoil. Also Ape's +2 CC doesn't actually do much more damage than Mence's +1 Outrage.
614 Atk vs 553 Atk. Then think that Dragon is resisted by 1 type vs CC's 5. Outrage is hitting a lot more Pokemon as hard if not harder than Ape's CC is. Then factor in residual damage and that Ape is way, way, way easier to revenge. Fun.
Isn't that why I wrote gimmick?
Needless to say, they don't give the pure offensive power Salamence does that everyone seems to resent coming from any speedy dragon. I'd like to remind everyone that this isn't the same meta-game as 3 years ago where Salamence with focus sash was the universal lead. It appears that the large problem with Salamence now is the simple fact that it is versatile and able to do well with various types of offensive sets. In other words, the main argument is that Salamence should be banned because one has to predict what moveset he'll be running, and prediction should not exist in competitive battling.
Maybe you missed the memo that almost all Salamence played by decent players are backed up by a Magnezone, for that very reason. I think it is clear that you can easily play around Skarm if that's literally the only pokemon that is going to reliably stop Salamence AND still be useful on a normal team.
Also, someone mentioned that Draco Meteor on Porygon2: 73% - 86.1%. If I am not mistaken, after leftovers recovery is factored in, that's a 2HKO with Draco Meteor. Meaning that Porygon2 is indeed not a counter to Mixmence, merely a check.
I believe the mere fact that nothing walls this thing and most rely on Stealth Rocks, Life Orb recoil, and luck (DM miss, Fire Blast miss, crit hax, etc.) to bring it down means it should be looked at to go into ubers for sure.
And yet Fire Blast OHKOs it so regardless of that it's still OHKOd.
Even if Magnezone usage drops, it still is the biggest threat to Skarmory. Leftovers recovery may seem like a lot to pay just to escape from Magnezone but after your Skarmory goes down, I'm pretty you have nothing else to stop DDMence unless I'm missing huge details here.
If you HAVE been reading, this part has already been argued upon. Just like Garchomp, Salamence could very well wield a Yache Berry to survive potential OHKOs rendered by priority Ice-type attacks. A revenge killer Weavile never OHKOs Yache Berry Mence with Ice Shard, who, in turn, OHKOs back with STAB +0 Outrage. This, obviously, is with the assumption that Weavile doesn't get the Attack drop that Intimidate gives, as it is a Revenge Killer. This situation is actually kind of impossible since pokemon who get revenged are actually those who have already set-up. With the assumption of a +1 Outrage, even Mamo is OHKOed.
Edit:
Okay, I can't help but back this up. I just loved it. It is true that predicting what kind of moveset one pokemon is running shouldn't be existent in competitive play. Especially not from such a powerful pokemon that is Salamence. If you sacrifice your pokemon just to predict what set it's running, you don't just let that pokemon take damage, you let it die, literally.
Latias was a constant check to Salamence. The anti-offense idealists banned it, but Cresselia is still perfectly capable of walling Salamence. Scarftran is also fantastic against it when you accurately predict the fire blast. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Heatran is banned next.
Also, there was once a time when Ice-type attacks were very common. For example, I run Ice Fang on my Gyarados since everyone loves assuming that Salamence's intimidate is the perfect way to destroy it, only for Mence to be OHKO'd (even with a Yache berry). It's safe to say that this time will soon be over when every dragon with BST over 555 is banned.
Edit: the point is, in your efforts to remove dragon types from the game to somehow preserve balance, you're only removing balancing factors from the game. There's a reason Metternich did not remove France from the map.
And isn't that why I wrote in case it has EQ instead of Fire Blast?
I don't give about Magnezone, especially how I haven't seen a Salamence and Magnezone on the same team in a long time on Shoddy, I don't even have one team with Salamence and Magnezone in the same team, yet I do fairly well against others on Shoddy...
Actually, I've never had Swampert like that in a situation like I stated, I just game some random example that came up in my head...
Uh-huh, and when's the last time you've seen a Yache Berry Salamence?
Yache berry doesn't work with Mence, even if Mence's intimidate lowers the attack of the opposing physical sweeper. Trust me. This is merely a half-assed rehash of the argument used to get Garchomp removed from the game.
Salamence + Magnezon (or Salazone for the quirky) is one of the best offensive pairings in the tier. Often times If I see Salamence I know that there is a Magnezone waiting in tow.
Did I mention that they have perfect synergy with each other?
Sure they have synergy, but when I see Salamence, I don't see Magnezone anymore, as Salamence is what, #3 or so in Shoddy, and Magnezone is what, #20 or something, don't get mad if I'm wrong, I just don't know the standings right now, and so I have a at least 50-50 chance of being right that Salamence and Magnezone aren't on the same team, so yeah, don't rant on how I"m wrong, as I might be, I'm just saying...
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