NP: UU - Bye Bye Bye

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Flamewheeler said:
1. Articuno is a beast; I used one in OU because I had ice for the monotype tourney in round 1. It takes a STAB fire blast from heatran and roosts it off like a champ. It's hella hard to take down, but it's just offputting because of it's horrendous typing and awful 4x SR weakness.

Glad to see Articuno getting shoutouts from people who aren't me :P. Just keep in mind that if you're using it as a Milotic counter that you still need some way to deal with RestTalk, unless you're using enough non-damaging attacks to sit there and stall it out of PP with Pressure. It is a great asset to have against Bulky waters, especially if you're running a Grass-type that can't afford to take an Ice Beam. The biggest problem is that Steel-types shit all over it, setting up Stealth Rock, resisting Ice, and being immune to Toxic. Still, it can be beastly with support, since while some things totally beat it, it has a pretty high number of UU pokes that it can take on while barely losing any health. Thus, if you scout the enemy and take out the right pokemon, Arti can sometimes destroy half the opponents team. I've used it to great effect on my main team. It's definitely fun to see the defensive set finish off a weakened Moltres after eating a Fire Blast :) (I don't recommend this unless it's desperate though). Unfortunately, if you don't keep Stealth Rock off of the field, Articuno's switch-ins are pretty much limited to bulky Waters and Grassers.

2. I've never used Raichu, but I remember when I first started UU, I used a SubManectric and it beat a lot of things. Electric is a nice offensive type, but I always feel like I'm being redundant when I use it alongside a grass-type. I just lean towards grass because it has better defensive typing.

3. Offensive Milotic is so overrated. It's pretty much dead weight against stall and can't really counter the things it's "supposed to". I guess because it's offensive, it shouldn't, but there's just better options imo.

Try the Life Orb tank set. It has more power (since it's Modest) and has just enough bulk to survive the moves it needs to and retaliate. It doesn't hard counter things all day like the bulky set, but it's a good mix of power and bulk. This comes at the cost of speed, however.
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Also regarding Franky's shoutout for Tauros: I'm actually baffled why Tauros doesn't see more UU use. 110 Speed + 100 Attack is damn good considering Tauros' STAB and coverage moves have 100 BP. If you're running Life Orb, Pursuit is an option to deal with Ghosts in certain situations. It's great insurance against Mismagius. Attack as it sets up, switch Tauros in on Shadow Ball, then kill it with Pursuit (~50-60% iirc) or Stone Edge (~80%).

@dbcb

The two main spreads are:

for support - 252 HP, 252 SpDef, 4 Spe. This is the one that survives Moltres' Fire Blast, takes 40% from Specs Zam Psychic, and counters Rotom and Lanturn despite the type disadvantage.

or the SubRoost - 252 HP, enough speed to beat Milotic (I think its 216) and the rest is useful in literally anything else, except attack. I prefer Defense. This one is still very bulky, but it's no wall. The speed and the bulk together make a dangerous combo, though. Only use this if you have Registeel firmly covered, and don't have waters well covered, though. Otherwise Moltres is superior.
 
Subperior is so. freaking. awesome. I had been using the banded set and switched back to the sub set and now I know why I used it in the first place. It can just blow holes through teams.

How are you guys ev'ing articuno? I just don't know if having all that support (either taunt lead or spiinner) is worth it though
 
I'm not sure what the skill level of the players you are playing against is, but most 'good' players will be able to tell whether Milotic is running a defensive set or an offensive set by the amount of damage Air Slash does.
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No, that's actually pretty easy to overlook. The lack of Lefties, however, will put up a red flag instantly.
 
You know, maybe I'm having trouble with Milotic because I haven't paid much attention to it all this time. I haven't really needed to until this period. I guess I'll be doing some much-needed hard calcs, then. Seriously, if Uberiffic can succeed with an old team, and if Thund, FlareBlitz, Jabba, etc. can take this metagame in stride like the other metagames, I don't see why I can't do the same. I might even invite good ol' Nidoking back... Too bad I have ~50 deviation already, though. I should have quit earlier.

Maybe this time I really will make an alt.
 
capefeather said:
You know, maybe I'm having trouble with Milotic because I haven't paid much attention to it all this time. I haven't really needed to until this period. I guess I'll be doing some much-needed hard calcs, then. Seriously, if Uberiffic can succeed with an old team, and if Thund, FlareBlitz, Jabba, etc. can take this metagame in stride like the other metagames, I don't see why I can't do the same. I might even invite good ol' Nidoking back... Too bad I have ~50 deviation already, though. I should have quit earlier.

Maybe this time I really will make an alt.
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I don't know if you'd say I succeded. I only got to #48, and stayed there for all of 20 seconds.

Hitmonlee is one of the best pokemon right now. Remember those cores of toxicroak/houndoom/venasaur/moltres everyone has? I run Earthquake/Close Combat/Mach Punch/Stone Edge for moltres switchins. Used to run blaze kick, but it didn't do enough to vensaur, and I could just go to moltres

All calcs assume adamant lee with life orb, since thats what I use and find more effective, even though hitmonlee wins most of these esier if jolly.


Max attack Houndoom sucker punch vs. hitmonlee: 49.6% - 58.3%
4 attack Houndoom sucker punch vs. hitmonlee: 38.4% - 45.9%
Hitmonlee Mach Punch vs. -sp.def houndoom: 104.8% - 123.3%
Hitmonlee wins if adamnat, assuming no rocks. But houndoom would die to life orb.

Toxicroak's max attack sucker punch vs. hitmonlee: 36.8% - 43.4%
Toxicroack's max speciel attack +2 (modest) vacuum wave vs. hitmonlee: 36.8% - 43.4%
Hitmonlee's earthquake vs. toxicroak: 135.7% - 160.4%
Hitmonlee wins unless jolly with cross chop. Jolly hitmonlee always wins.

I will analyze each venasaur set seperatly. First, 4def (choice, SD)

Hitmonlee's close combat vs. venasaur: 50.8% - 59.8%
Hitmonlee's earthquake/stone edge vs. venasaur: 56.5% - 66.4%
Hitmonlee's jolly close combat vs. venasaur: 51.8% - 61.1%
Lee wins if jolly and venasaur switches in. otherwise outsped by +speed and KO'ed by any physical attack.

Mixed Attacker Vena

Hitmonlee's close combat: 49.2% - 58.4%
Hitmonlee's earthquake/stone edge: 54.9% - 65%
Lee wins if vena switches in.

Support:

Lee's Close Combat: 38.5% - 45.3%
Lee's Earthquake/Stone Edge: 42.9% - 50.5%
Lee loses.

Note that lee can 2hko all vensaur with jolly blaze kick, so if you really don't like vensaur, that's an option.

Moltres: (assumes 4 sp.def, no def or hp.)

Close Combat: 44.9% - 53%
Stone Edge: Just for lolz: 199.4% - 235.5%
Jolly Hitmonlee outspeeds modest moltres

So, after doing these calcs, I have learned jolly lee is better against 3/4 pokemon, and venasaur is moltres bait anyway.
*Goes to change to jolly*

Heres all the notable pokemon in UU hitmonlee can outspeed and 2hko or ohko over 50% of the time. Assumes jolly. Assumes vs. Standard set. Does not assume rocks or spikes.

Absol, Aggron, Alakazam, Arcanine, Blaziken, Chansey, Clefable, Donphan, Cloyster (small chance for OHKO), Drapion (close combat + mach punch), Azumarill (app. 50% chance for OHKO with close combat + mach punch. easy OHKO back with aqua jet.), Dugtrio, Feraligatr, Hariyama, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop (includes intimidate), Houndoom (mach punch has about 50%), Kabutops, Lanturn, Ludicolo, Milotic, Mitank, Moltres, Nidoking, Omastar, Poliwrath, Regirock, Registeel, Rhyperior, Sceptile, Scyther, Steelix, Swellow.

Additional KO'es with rocks and one layer of spikes:

Torterra, Tangrowth, Ambipom (mach punch revenge after fake out only.).

Obviously, all these KO'es are assuming perfect prediction. But it goes to show how few counters hitmonlee.
 
or the SubRoost - 252 HP, enough speed to beat Milotic (I think its 216) and the rest is useful in literally anything else, except attack. I prefer Defense. This one is still very bulky, but it's no wall. The speed and the bulk together make a dangerous combo, though. Only use this if you have Registeel firmly covered, and don't have waters well covered, though. Otherwise Moltres is superior.
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Just to clarify this post, SubRoost Articuno uses 248 HP/44 Def/216 Spe, although I prefer 44 to be in SpD so standard Milotic has a very low chance to break your Sub with Surf. SubRoost Moltres and Articuno used together are just killer though.
 
Listing a bunch of Pokemon that a middle-speed sweeper can 2HKO does not show anything really. I can put literally 20-30 sweepers with in 10 Base Speed of Hitmonlee in Hitmonlee's place and have more impressive results. Hitmonlee is a great Pokemon but not solely because "it can 2HKO some Pokemon". Hitmonlee is great because it has 120 Atk with access to two great priority moves, immunity to paralysis, and impressive special bulk.
 
Pretty much what Heysup said. Blaziken can OHKO/2HKO the whole metagame (bar two or three exceptions IIRC) with perfect prediction yet it doesn't steamroll teams as easily as a bunch of calculations make it seem it does. Also, if you're so interested in breaking those cores, I'd just go with Arcanine (Moltres and Houndoom aren't really used together, so I suppose you mean Houndoom/Toxicroack/Venusaur)
 
Yeah, I've been using Kangaskhan and Tauros together and so far they are really amazing. Nothing can really switch into CB Kangaskhan's Return except for those Steel and rock types which are all beat by Donphan and Slowbro. If someone opts to use Weezing's Will-O-wisp since it can survive a 2KO or any other fire attack for that matter, CBK9 has a field day. It also KOs those faster pokemon with E-Speed.
 
MetaGross66 said:
Yeah, I've been using Kangaskhan and Tauros together and so far they are really amazing. Nothing can really switch into CB Kangaskhan's Return except for those Steel and rock types which are all beat by Donphan and Slowbro. If someone opts to use Weezing's Will-O-wisp since it can survive a 2KO or any other fire attack for that matter, CBK9 has a field day. It also KOs those faster pokemon with E-Speed.
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Ghosts are a potential problem as well, so a MixDoom with Pursuit would be a fine choice to take them out...especially since it can switch into Will-O-Wisp as well.

Edit: Had a brainfreeze there...completely forgot about Scrappy.
 
Golden Sun said:
@Shrang I've been looking to make a team like that. What support do you give it?
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Obviously, Rapid Spin support, since both are murdered by SR. The rest of the team should just be used to cover pretty much every other threat, so a good defensive core and a revenge killer or two.
 
shrang said:
Obviously, Rapid Spin support, since both are murdered by SR. The rest of the team should just be used to cover pretty much every other threat, so a good defensive core and a revenge killer or two.
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Also, Steel types wreck SubRoost Articuno. So, Magneton can be used to trap and defeat Registeel/ Steelix, although Articuno outstalls Steelix anyway unless it runs Iron Head. Magneton may occupy just a niche role, but the removal of Registeel means that Articuno can destroy most teams unhindered.
 
Okay seriously. Offensive SD Venusaur is officially dead. I haven't seen a single offensive varient, instead I've been seeing the special tank set, mixed, specs and scarfed.

Is it really dead in this metagame? It still feels effective to me...


Also, Steel types wreck SubRoost Articuno. So, Magneton can be used to trap and defeat Registeel/ Steelix, although Articuno outstalls Steelix anyway unless it runs Iron Head. Magneton may occupy just a niche role, but the removal of Registeel means that Articuno can destroy most teams unhindered.
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Sorry IB, but Magneton doesn't effectively remove Registeel due to it's staggering SpD/Seismic toss wearing you down greatly. I reckon running something like a Torterra is a good idea as it simply doesn't care about Registeel of any kind. You can also run Dugtrio if that floats your boat.
 
To me SD Venusaur has always been mediocre and the worst of the sets Venusaur could run except maybe Choice Scarf. It's just walled way too easy with only 2 moves, either by Flying types, Steel types, or Grass types, and almost everyteam has something that can outrun it and revenge it.
Where it did (and still does) sorta shine was against Stall, who tend to have trouble with grass types if they dont use Arcanine (and Altaria doesnt beat SD Venusaur).
 
SD Venusaur needs ideal conditions to sweep, but if the conditions are met, it will plow through your team. The conditions are:

1. Remove all Pokemon that will beat you depending on you filler move (Steels for Return, Fliers for Earthquake).

2. Remove all Pokemon faster than you or have a priority move that can severely damage you.

Based on these two facts, I don't even see why people would run Return. Both Moltres and Swellow fit the second condition, so you shouldn't be staying in against them anyway, whereas Registeel fits neither if you use Earthquake, although it can status you if it isn't at low enough health for you to OHKO it.

But that's besides the point. SD Venusaur is a great sweeper, but it needs a lot of support to work well.
 
Has anyone tried not running sleep powder on it and running 3 attacks?

Of course then it becomes a Meganium with power whip... eh
 
Okay seriously. Offensive SD Venusaur is officially dead. I haven't seen a single offensive varient, instead I've been seeing the special tank set, mixed, specs and scarfed.
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I think it's partly a result of people responding to it's recent abundance. Not too long ago, if you were SD Venu weak you'd probably lose most of your games. I think people still consider Venasaur a mostly physical threat, as Special versions used to be almost always walls / subseeders and thus not too threatening. However, it seems like there are a lot of offensive Special Venusaur spamming Sludge Bomb now, probably since it can seriously hurt the Moltres and Arcanine that walk all over the SD set. Speaking of, another reason SD is so low right now is probably because in this metagame letting Moltres walk all over you is a serious liability.

shrang said:
Just to clarify this post, SubRoost Articuno uses 248 HP/44 Def/216 Spe, although I prefer 44 to be in SpD so standard Milotic has a very low chance to break your Sub with Surf. SubRoost Moltres and Articuno used together are just killer though.
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Thanks for the clarification, although it turns out that you need 224 Speed EV's to beat offensive Milotic, and trust me, it really sucks to die to two Hydro Pumps because you had a little bit of residual damage (which Articuno is likely to have since he's useful in so many situations). I've never specifically tried both birds together with SubRoost sets, but I do run a team that uses SubRoost Moltres and Cleric Articuno and the combo is pretty sweet.

@ Golden Sun

Obviously, you need massive amounts of spin support, as well as rock resists (hello Hitmontop, Donphan). Running two spinners isn't even that bad of an idea. Other pokemon to watch out for are Clefable, Chansey, (only if they have SR and you don't have Heal Bell) Houndoom, Ninetales, SD Sceptile, Resttalkers (Milotic, Blastoise, Regirock, Cradily), and Manectric. Hitmontop can spin and also takes on many of these threats, as does Haze Milotic.

As a point of interest (and awesomeness) SubRoost Articuno takes 85.9% - 101.6% from a Specs Manectric Thunderbolt.
 
I agree completely. I started running SpecialSaur before the transitiong for it's surprise factor and because it could hit hard right off the bat. Most times, I wouldn't even find myself sweeping with venusaur or using EQ at all. I prefer dual STAB over getting walled by bitches like Moltres and Arcanine. Heck,I would go mixed over full SD, but that's just me.
 
LoveHate said:
What defensive cores have people found to be most effective this round?
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Basically, bulky water + Tangrowth + Steelix/Registeel does pretty well. I use a SpD Milotic because Slowbro/King get fucked over by Houndoom...I don't wan't my Water getting owned by that thing.
 
Thund91 said:
Basically, bulky water + Tangrowth + Steelix/Registeel does pretty well. I use a SpD Milotic because Slowbro/King get fucked over by Houndoom...I don't wan't my Water getting owned by that thing.
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SD Blaziken rips apart most cores. So does SD Kabutops.

I literally went 25-4 on the ladder with Omastar / SD Kabutops(swap around with SD Blaziken) / Scarf Rotom / RP Torterra / SD Absol / Arcanine

People just crumble under the pressure of these heavy hitters, but I do feel this sort of team would only work on the ladder.
 
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