NP: UU - Bye Bye Bye

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Jynx is definitely not common enough for anyone to use crappy pokes like Dewgong, just play intelligently and treat it like a better, prettier venusaur. Edit: And regarding Lapras, you're really better off going with a Curse set over DD.
 
So I Just played a SubDD Lapras on the ladder, and I sent in my Azumaril on it. Its return didnt even KO at +2 and it only did like 64% and after doing the calc thats hitting for max damage. While my azumaril hit back for the KO + LO damage. So I'm going to second flareblitz in saying that curse is a better option and that leftovers is a better option.
 
So I guess the cat's out of the bag. My biggest trump card, my secret weapon has been the one and only Raichu. Not Specs Manetric (which I'll admit is a fucking monster. I love how they always switch into Venusaur only to be absolutely mauled by Overheat, but that's another electric type for another day)

You know, I was once in disappointment with this pokemon. The Subpunch set was walled WAY to easily and the NP set consisting of: T-bolt/HP ice/Focus Blast/NP (while an effective Stall breaker) was outright outclassed by Toxicroak when it came to pure sweeping. The speed wasn't THAT important when it cam to most stall teams.

What changed though was when I went with NPencore set. It really gave me a new lease on the pokemon.The fact that Raichu is the ONLY pokemon in UU that can pull this off, is even better. I think he's one of the few pokemon that can beat Chansey one-on-one because of Encore.

I'm not saying that this is pokemon is amzing. It's been very *good* and simply that. I recommend you guys give it a re-try again in this metagame.

I've talked about Raichu a lot before. Aggravated many too. I've given it a good amount of time and I'm positive that it's got it's own niche in the metagame. It's also awesome when that Houndoom thinks he can revenge you with Sucker Punch but you encore as he uses said move and boost up for free.



I think that set, and Uragg's Anti-lead Cloyster set are the funnest pokemon in the tier for me to use.
For those who don't know, Uragg's Cloyster lead is mean't to troll most of the top 10 leads used, and act as a bulky water killer. You can lul them into a false sense of hope when you switch into their surfs. (because Surf is a almost a clean 2HKO due to Cloyster's awful SpD coupled with a hindering SpD nature)
Explode as they stay in too. Focus Sash guarantee's that you beat most of the opposing leads too.


Edit: My biggest complaint with Raichu is getting past Venusaur. Offensive Venusaur is a piece cake but they are extinct at the moment and specially defensive sets are everywhere (which really puts a damper on the plans)
 
Cacturne, Mr. Mime, and technically Volbeat (Tail Glow= Nasty Plot) can Encore + Nasty Plot too, but Raichu is probably the most effective.

And how does Encoring a revenging Sucker Punch work? I thought Encore failed if they hadn't attacked yet, so Sucker Punch would fail but the trick becomes obvious.
 
And how does Encoring a revenging Sucker Punch work? I thought Encore failed if they hadn't attacked yet, so Sucker Punch would fail but the trick becomes obvious.

It only fails if the opponent hasn't moved since they switched in. If they use Sucker Punch, it goes first even if it fails, so Encore will go right after it and lock them in.

I used a CB Raichu to cover one of my teams' weaknesses. I'm not impressed with its bulk, and its speed could easily be better, but firing off CB Volt Tackles feels pretty good, and Static is a nice ability. And a CB Focus Punch, while risky, is so awesome to nail incoming Registeel and Rhyperior with.

Raichu really needs Encore to make up for it's terrible defenses. With Encore, it can hold momentum for your team by forcing things trying to set up or recover in their tracks. Either NP or Sub Punch can take advantage of Encore. If you're not going with Encore, you should probably use Mismagius.

It's funny to see people responding to the forum... I saw a lot of Articuno today. Luckily, my SubRoost Arti is EVed to outspeed Milotic (base 81) while pretty much all of the others were set up to outspeed base 80's, so I still had the upper hand : D.
 
I used a CB Raichu to cover one of my teams' weaknesses. I'm not impressed with its bulk, and its speed could easily be better, but firing off CB Volt Tackles feels pretty good, and Static is a nice ability. And a CB Focus Punch, while risky, is so awesome to nail incoming Registeel and Rhyperior with.
 
Lapras just doesn't hit hard enough and its stupid ice typing just ruins it. I have played around with its mixed DD set and it was meh. Curse set is meh.

And PK Gaming loving and bragging about Raichu... shocking lol.

And people forget about SD Toxicroak which is probably its best set. The problem with it.. it depends on Cross Chop and Stone Edge which means one I will miss at the wrong time and your sweep will be over and you will rage. But damn that thing hits like a truck (if it hits :(). Plus with seemingly everyone using the NP set, a lot of times people send in the wrong counter/wall only to get OHKO'd.
 
And people forget about SD Toxicroak which is probably its best set. The problem with it.. it depends on Cross Chop and Stone Edge which means one I will miss at the wrong time and your sweep will be over and you will rage. But damn that thing hits like a truck (if it hits :(). Plus with seemingly everyone using the NP set, a lot of times people send in the wrong counter/wall only to get OHKO'd.
Low Kick is a good move to use over Cross Chop. You hit stuff like Donphan and Milotic for the same base power, while hitting Registeel harder. Yeah, you hit other stuff for less power but most of the Pokemon that you would use your Fighting-type move on won't particularly enjoy a +2 Low kick anyway even if it hits for only 80 BP.

I understand that there's a glitch on Shoddy which cause moves like Grass Knot and Low Kick to ignore power boosts from items, so I guess it won't be that good to use if you run Life Orb on Croak. It doesn't matter to me though since I run Lum Berry on Croak (which was recommended by Thund somewhere in this thread iirc), which is a superior item choice imo.
 
How?? Chansey 3HKOs you with Seismic Toss.


At 2+ Thunderbolt is about 3HKO too. (34.2% - 40.2%)
Chansey will have no choice but to Softboil after the first one, and that' your chance to strike. (Unless it want's to die)


Raichu really needs Encore to make up for it's terrible defenses. With Encore, it can hold momentum for your team by forcing things trying to set up or recover in their tracks. Either NP or Sub Punch can take advantage of Encore. If you're not going with Encore, you should probably use Mismagius.

My sentiments exactly.
 
I've always been a fan of Hariyama. Specially Bulky is one that I'd usually go for, but RestTalk is always nice.

I'm not sure why but I've never liked Bulk Up sets. D:

I've never had such an irritating time deciding on a lead for a team... I said before that Mesprit/Uxie would work well with this team, but at the same time so would Registeel... I can never imagine Registeel leading, though.

Anyway, getting back to a general pitch... I'm going to be testing a Perish Trapper Lapras more soon enough. Can't really decide on what sort of general team to run with her, though.
 
- First, you assume a +2 Lapras, which no reasonable player will allow to happen, unless they have ran out of counters (which is hard on stall) or missplay, which are things you cannot rely on.
- Sub + Life Orb is absolutely contradictory, as it's Lapras' very same bulk that makes it remotely viable.
- Milotic could give less of a damn if Lapras is setting up, as it'll just have its boosts hazed away when it gets to +2 (we're assuming stall here, and no one would run 3 attacks unless they are pretty sure they got everything else covered); while it doesn't hit back for considerable damage, differently from Feraligatr.
- You're using a spinner, which means this perfect stallbreaker needs some considerable support to do its job; and you've been talking about stall all long, so Spikes are to be assumed and so is spinblocking.
- I repeat again, no player is gonna let you get +1, Substitute and then bring in their Hitmontop. People know what sweepers are capable of and will switch to their counters as soon as possible not to be swept, and Hitmontop's Intimidate + continuous Close Combats will force Lapras to lose a lot of HP subbing to win
- Repeating, Lapras will have a Sub OR have +1 status, not both.
- Registeel isn't common on stall, but balance.
- Regarding Rotom we have the following situation: Lapras switches in; Lapras uses Dragon Dance as Rotom comes in; Lapras doesn't OHKO Rotom while said floating poké either burns it or hit it with a STAB Thunderbolt; Lapras loses. Same applies to Venusaur;

-Didn't you read what I said? Switch it in on something such as Chansey or Registeel and then sub. Get your DD as they switch, and if they send in something such as Milotic because they think just because it has HP Grass it's a counter then you set up more and 2KO it. That's usually how I get +2. Seriously, you probably don't even know how easy it is because I'm assuming you haven't even tried it. >_>

-I never said I used Sub LO even though it is possible with a wish passer. I just stated that I use a sub DD Lapras (mine is holding leftys). I only said LO grabs you a certain 2KO against Milotic at +2. You don't even need LO to 2KO Venusaur at +1 which means that if one switches it in after bringing Lapras in on Milotic, you'll most likely get these conditions to 2KO that Venusaur.

-Have you forgotten that substitute blocks Intimidate? Like I said, most people will try to status/attack it with Chansey, Milotic, and Registeel instead of going directly to Hitmontop allowing you a free sub which seismic toss doesn't break. This is because they don't suspect a DD set, though that's probably not the case now. If it CCs it loses defense and you just sub it off until you can KO it (after about 2 subs).

-If you bring it in on the above Pokemon which are really common then it is extremely likely you will have both.

-Not going to bother with this because you're right, but that still doesn't mean it isn't played on Stall.

-Just explained how I beat Venusaur up there (I did it several times, too...). Lapras has only ever lost to a Rotom once and that's because it was scarfed. Otherwise, it had its sub and +1 and 2KOed it with Waterfall.

Curse Lapras could be better, but I have my doubts. Ice is a bad defensive typing and Curse puts it in the position to take things like Close Combats from Hitmonlee and Hitmontop when it can just outspeed them for KOs with a DD set. I'm not going to forget about it before trying it, though, because shell armor is a good ability for a Curser.
 
So basically it's the surprise value. I suppose it's hard to decide whether to stay in since it can hit both sides of the spectrum anyway.
 
Talking about Curse, I have been using a Curse Venusaur lately. I used to run a regular SD set but when I saw this, I tried Curse instead and it works great. It sets up slower then the SD-set but it is bulkier by far.
 
-Didn't you read what I said? Switch it in on something such as Chansey or Registeel and then sub. Get your DD as they switch, and if they send in something such as Milotic because they think just because it has HP Grass it's a counter then you set up more and 2KO it. That's usually how I get +2. Seriously, you probably don't even know how easy it is because I'm assuming you haven't even tried it. >_>

Against Registeel you're coming in on Thunder Wave, against Chansey you're coming in on Toxic or Thunder Wave. Switching into these Pokemon is not a reliable way to set up. Pokemon such as Rhyperior and Torterra don't give two shits about Thunder Wave (or even Toxic) so they can just blindly switch in. If they send in Milotic, they're going to have Haze. If not, they simply won't send it in.
Metagross66 said:
-Have you forgotten that substitute blocks Intimidate? Like I said, most people will try to status/attack it with Chansey, Milotic, and Registeel instead of going directly to Hitmontop allowing you a free sub which seismic toss doesn't break. This is because they don't suspect a DD set, though that's probably not the case now. If it CCs it loses defense and you just sub it off until you can KO it (after about 2 subs).

Why would people just sit there and let you get a Substitute up then switch? That's stupid. I'm sure Plusle can sweep if Chansey and Registeel sit there trying to Paralyze its substitute or do minimal damage with Stoss/Iron Head. People won't do that. If you send Lapras in on a revenge kill, you can bet that they will switch right to Hitmontop and Intimidate will nail you. Even if Lapras isn't common the fact that you sent it in on a special wall makes it quite obvious.
Metagross66 said:
-Just explained how I beat Venusaur up there (I did it several times, too...). Lapras has only ever lost to a Rotom once and that's because it was scarfed. Otherwise, it had its sub and +1 and 2KOed it with Waterfall.

You don't reliably beat Venusaur. It switches in, you Sub or DD and you actually flat out lose if it has energy ball. You don't 2HKO even with a DD (52% maximum) and it can just flat out out damage you with Energy Ball. If it is Sludge Bomb / Leaf Storm you need to predict the Leaf Storm and use Substitute which isn't very easy. And you realize you don't have Sub and +1 when Rotom comes in, so it switches in and you have a Sub or DD then it OHKOes you with Thunderbolt (or 2HKOes you with the Sub).

Not to mention Tangrowth has been on the rise.
 
I was going to try Curse a while ago, but I thought why sacrifice speed when SD does the same thing? Besides, everything that is faster is usually specially based (Alakazam or Moltres) or can hit it for physical damage that is super effective with STAB (Scyther, Arcanine, and Swellow). Slower stuff is handled better by an SD set since Venusaur has no business taking hits from things like Rhyperior when it can kill them right away.

I'd say Growth Venusaur should be used more. Anyone other than me try it last round?

Against Registeel you're coming in on Thunder Wave, against Chansey you're coming in on Toxic or Thunder Wave. Switching into these Pokemon is not a reliable way to set up. Pokemon such as Rhyperior and Torterra don't give two shits about Thunder Wave (or even Toxic) so they can just blindly switch in. If they send in Milotic, they're going to have Haze. If not, they simply won't send it in.

What I meant was coming in after either letting something else take the status or you can always give it lum.

Why would people just sit there and let you get a Substitute up then switch? That's stupid. I'm sure Plusle can sweep if Chansey and Registeel sit there trying to Paralyze its substitute or do minimal damage with Stoss/Iron Head. People won't do that. If you send Lapras in on a revenge kill, you can bet that they will switch right to Hitmontop and Intimidate will nail you. Even if Lapras isn't common the fact that you sent it in on a special wall makes it quite obvious.

Considering you already know the set you would say this, but it's ridiculous how many people have actually let it sub up on there Chansey thinking it was the standard special sponge.

You don't reliably beat Venusaur. It switches in, you Sub or DD and you actually flat out lose if it has energy ball. You don't 2HKO even with a DD (52% maximum) and it can just flat out out damage you with Energy Ball. If it is Sludge Bomb / Leaf Storm you need to predict the Leaf Storm and use Substitute which isn't very easy. And you realize you don't have Sub and +1 when Rotom comes in, so it switches in and you have a Sub or DD then it OHKOes you with Thunderbolt (or 2HKOes you with the Sub).

Not to mention Tangrowth has been on the rise.

There's a good chance to 2KO, and taking into account SR, I'm sure it's guaranteed. Like Thund said, most Milotic are forgoing Haze for HP Grass.

The bolded part is what you guys are missing. It's so easy to get both a DD and a sub against things that rely on Seismic Toss to do damage. You outspeed as they try to status you and sub up. Then they switch to their counter as you DD. Behind a sub you can attack twice against things like Rotom and Venusaur only losing your sub while defeating either one.

Please just try it before saying anything, because you guys obviously don't know how bulky this thing is. It only takes 53% max from Support Venusaur's Energy Ball. You don't even need a sub to beat it down with Return, lol.
 
So DD Lapras's concept is "hope they don't realize I have 101 Subs and try to KO me with Siesmic Toss then realize they can't so they switch to something else and let me set up more"?

That's not very effective against stall in particular since it will not happen. Against offense, you may have some more success due to not as clearly being able to distinguish the DD set from the Special set because they don't have distinct walls, but finding something to set up on is still going to be ridiculously hard. Against stall it is very obvious which set you're running because you are sending it in on Chansey / Registeel the two most prominent special walls.

And it does 52% max to 252 HP Venusaur, which after a turn will almost assuredly not KO due to Leftovers. It has a very very small chance with Stealth Rock, and no chance without.

There is a difference between "not trying a set so I don't know how effective it is" when simple solid calculations and logic suffice to say how ineffective/effective a set is. For example, if people are doubting Qwilfish because of Ambipom leads I would tell them to actually try it instead of just assuming it doesn't work most of the time. This is different, the logic behind this set (DD Lapras) is not sound where as Qwilfish's goal is very realistic and makes sense.
 
-Didn't you read what I said? Switch it in on something such as Chansey or Registeel and then sub. Get your DD as they switch, and if they send in something such as Milotic because they think just because it has HP Grass it's a counter then you set up more and 2KO it. That's usually how I get +2. Seriously, you probably don't even know how easy it is because I'm assuming you haven't even tried it. >_>

- I never said I used Sub LO even though it is possible with a wish passer. I just stated that I use a sub DD Lapras (mine is holding leftys). I only said LO grabs you a certain 2KO against Milotic at +2. You don't even need LO to 2KO Venusaur at +1 which means that if one switches it in after bringing Lapras in on Milotic, you'll most likely get these conditions to 2KO that Venusaur.

-Have you forgotten that substitute blocks Intimidate? Like I said, most people will try to status/attack it with Chansey, Milotic, and Registeel instead of going directly to Hitmontop allowing you a free sub which seismic toss doesn't break. This is because they don't suspect a DD set, though that's probably not the case now. If it CCs it loses defense and you just sub it off until you can KO it (after about 2 subs).

-If you bring it in on the above Pokemon which are really common then it is extremely likely you will have both.

-Not going to bother with this because you're right, but that still doesn't mean it isn't played on Stall.

-Just explained how I beat Venusaur up there (I did it several times, too...). Lapras has only ever lost to a Rotom once and that's because it was scarfed. Otherwise, it had its sub and +1 and 2KOed it with Waterfall.

Curse Lapras could be better, but I have my doubts. Ice is a bad defensive typing and Curse puts it in the position to take things like Close Combats from Hitmonlee and Hitmontop when it can just outspeed them for KOs with a DD set. I'm not going to forget about it before trying it, though, because shell armor is a good ability for a Curser.

- If it's easy or if it isn't easy to setup Lapras you can't really tell as well, because the ladder is filled with people that have no idea what they are doing; and I never said that Lapras set sucked (although it's inferior to Gatr in a soundly amount of ways), but that it isn't a stallbreaker at all, and so far you haven't put up a single argument that counters me on that regard.

- Man, did you have any problems reading through my last post? You'll get your Sub up and I'll be switching; I won't be stupid and leave my Chansey/Registeel in there to act as huge fodders. If people on the ladder that play stall do that then whatever, but don't assume that will happen just because you play people that have no idea what they are doing. Oh and switching into Status isn't too good for our Lapras friend is it?

- Yeah, SubLO, a set that needs spin and wish support to 2HKO Milotic at +2. Wow...

- Have you forgotten that I can switch my Hitmontop into your Lapras as it attempts to use Substitute and it'll end up at -1? Get to know the mechanics before you post things like these; and stop assuming your opponent doesn't know a SubDD Lapras exists, because any poké can work like that. Oh and here's Lapras -1 Waterfall (Intimidate) vs a -2 Defense Hitmontop: 196 Atk vs 158 Def & 304 HP (80 Base Power): 108 - 127 (35.53% - 41.78%).

- To the rest of your points that make no sense whatsoever, stop assuming you'll be getting a Sub and a DD up; and get to think of more realistic stuff like:

Player A brings Lapras in on Chansey (let's assume Chansey didn't want to do shit for this turn, so there is no problem if it switches in or not)

Lapras uses Dragon Dance/ Substitute as Player B goes to Venusaur.

If Player A used Substitute, what will happen is:

Venusaur uses Power Whip and breaks substitute; Lapras uses Return. You're not at +1 so no 2HKO (that is if you outspeed at all, because as of lately I've seen speedier defensive Venusaurs).

If Player A used Dragon Dance, what will happen is:

Lapras will use Return and be KOed back by Power Whip; end of story.

I'm not here to start the anti-Lapras inquisition and I know I'm being extremely bitchy on this subject, but in this thread, in every page, out of 25 posts, 15 have something absurd; so that's just getting on my nerves a little (lot).
 
I used a CB Raichu to cover one of my teams' weaknesses. I'm not impressed with its bulk, and its speed could easily be better, but firing off CB Volt Tackles feels pretty good, and Static is a nice ability. And a CB Focus Punch, while risky, is so awesome to nail incoming Registeel and Rhyperior with.


I honestly did not see this point. Raichu as a CB user eh... At least he doesn't get outclassed like when using Specs (Cough Manetric) and Luxray's Spark deals considerably less damage than Volt Tackle...

My only problem is that Raichu's physical movepool is rather poor.
(wishes it had Seed bomb)
 
Regarding Lapras. It's too weak for the DD set and almost completely outclassed by Feraligatr. Curse set isn't bad since you get STAB Ice Shard and Avalanche is much stronger than anything available to the the DD set. This also lets it beat Venusaur (assuming it attacks instead of putting you to sleep or you're running RestTalk with Avalanche). But I think the best set it can run is sub + 3 attacks. Sub/Surf/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam. Walled hard by Chansey, but does a nice job of ripping apart most FWG cores from behind a sub. I've also used a Lanturn with a similar set, but its main problem was being unable to 2hko Venusaur with Ice Beam. Lapras does not have that issue, although you're going to need to run an assload of speed to outrun Venusaur (hint: aim for 208 SPE). Edit: Lapras loses the 2hko on Milotic in favor of gaining the 2hko on Venusaur, but Milotic can't do shit to you anyway, even with HP Grass, so you win in the end.
 
Lapras' typing does it no favours. A weakness to Rock and Fighting make it much harder to get any sort of boost. Lapras should just stick with what its good at, making use of BoltBeam, and 130/80/95 defenses. Or you can try Block Perish Song, but Mismagius or Jynx probably do this better.
 
Lapras I find, is a pokemon that would kick some serious ass if it was simply a water type. It's got impressive bulk and good offensive stats. That Ice typing just cost that pokemon from being a reliable bulky water in the tier, offensive juggernaut etc.

That being said it's not awful. I haven't used the DD set, but I once with an all out sweeper set (like Flare blitz mentioned but with Toxic in place of Sub) and it was pretty decent. I only used it for like 2 matches in Porygon Z era so I wouldn't know how it would stack up in this metagame.

Yes I have used every single pokemon.
 
Low Kick is a good move to use over Cross Chop. You hit stuff like Donphan and Milotic for the same base power, while hitting Registeel harder. Yeah, you hit other stuff for less power but most of the Pokemon that you would use your Fighting-type move on won't particularly enjoy a +2 Low kick anyway even if it hits for only 80 BP.

I understand that there's a glitch on Shoddy which cause moves like Grass Knot and Low Kick to ignore power boosts from items, so I guess it won't be that good to use if you run Life Orb on Croak. It doesn't matter to me though since I run Lum Berry on Croak (which was recommended by Thund somewhere in this thread iirc), which is a superior item choice imo.


I didn't know he learned low kick. Thanks, that would help a ton.
 
Lapras just doesn't hit hard enough and its stupid ice typing just ruins it. I have played around with its mixed DD set and it was meh. Curse set is meh.

And PK Gaming loving and bragging about Raichu... shocking lol.

And people forget about SD Toxicroak which is probably its best set. The problem with it.. it depends on Cross Chop and Stone Edge which means one I will miss at the wrong time and your sweep will be over and you will rage. But damn that thing hits like a truck (if it hits :(). Plus with seemingly everyone using the NP set, a lot of times people send in the wrong counter/wall only to get OHKO'd.

Actually every time I see a Toxicroak now I assume it's a physical variant. It seems Nasty Plot sets seem to have died, probably because if you pair it up with Houndoom, Houndoom is the better special sweeper and physical Toxicroak handles Milotic easier than special variants.

And yes Lum Berry is the superior item. LO sucks.
 
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