The First Smogon Council - Salamence

[TheValkyries]

People seem to forget what the term "counter" means. If a pokemon can switch in, and immediately force out the opponent, and do this job multiple times, then and only then is it a counter. Checks =/= Counters, and if a wide variety of checks were all we needed to keep a pokemon in OU then Latias would not have been banned. We should also keep in mind that entry hazards/SS/LO recoil are all only checks, not counters to Salamence.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

There is no way you are serious here, tell me what legitimate Pokemon can take a DD Outrage or 2 Outrages and OHKO back (that is what a "hard counter" is). Cresselia, P2, very bulky Suicune/Vaporeon ... that is all really. Even it's checks can only come in safely on revenge kills (Mamoswine/Weavile) as they run the risk of being Outraged/Fire Blasted.

For the bulky water counters, they often support an entire team, can you imagine Mence taking them down to 20% or whatever and then DDGyara or Infernape just sweeping?

Alright look at it this way. If we -know- Salamence is a of a DD variant, than it has A LOT of hard counters. I would switch in Swampert/Vaporeon/Suicnue all day long. What is it going to do? Blind Outrage on the switch? The most likely move it does is either of it's 2 other offensive moves, normally EQ/FB or DD. If it DDs, your water Poke is only taking 6% on the switch in after Leftovers. We're assuming same conditions here. Salamence had to take 25% just to get in.

Now what? You're gonig to Outrage me and die? You say that it opens up for Infernape/Gyarados. Well those two can do the same thing. What are Gyarados's hard counter? We'er going to ignore Cresselia/P2 because they "stop" both DDGyara and DDMence. Gyarados can weaken all of it's counter significantly as well. Bulky Rotom is still going to be weaken enough for an Agility Metagross sweep, Celebi/Grass Pokes can be beaten alone with Bounce, and Vaporeon absolutely needs HPElectric, or it could lose to either SubBounce, DDTaunt, or DDRestTalk. Because Salamence weakens one Pokemon for another to sweep doesn't make it uber, because EVERY Pokemon pretty much has that ability.

The only reason why you would possibly bring up DDMence being of any importance to whether or not it is uber relates to only one thing. Earlier I said "if you knew it was DD." That's it. That's the only reason why it should be brought up, because you don't know between the two. And let's face it, any other Salamence that isn't DD or Mix is a joke. Scarfmence is a joke, Specsmence is a joke, and bulkyMence is as well. You are overly concerned for two reasons, because if yuo switch in ScarfJira/Heatran on a DDMence, you might lose it. If you switch in Swampert on a MixMence, then that's gone. But seriously, DDMence has hard counters and is -not- a threat -If- (and a big If) you know it was DD.

On an unrelated note. Also DDJollyNite is absolutely fine. With all the raging Jolteons out there, I'd say it's a good investment to make. And with the power difference, if you're using Life Orb, you're probably not going to notice it, and if you're using Lum/Yache/Leftovers, then that 10% boost isn't going to help KO much either casue you're using it for more defensive purposes most likely.

On another unrelated note. A year ago people wanted to test Ho-Oh and Darkrai and now so eager to ban Salamence...smh.......................

 

[Bamce]

I'm getting tired of the "DNite, so slow" argument.
Out of all of these, the only Pokemon that Salamence manages to beat which Dragonite can't: Rotom-A. Mence speed ties with Flygon and Jirachi, which I don't consider "beating".

You do realize that not forcing a speed tie is loosing right? The fact that mence forces the speed tie instead of just being beaten is all the more in its favor.

Nite can't force that tie. It must switch or die.

I'm really trying to stay out of this whole debacle. Seeing both sides of the argument.
However its really easy to try and push an argument to one side by arbitrarily throwing out facts for no good reason.

 

[Hipmonlee]

The only reason why you would possibly bring up DDMence being of any importance to whether or not it is uber relates to only one thing. Earlier I said "if you knew it was DD." That's it. That's the only reason why it should be brought up, because you don't know between the two.

As far as only reasons to bring it up go, what you have described is basically every situation a ddmence can possibly be used ever.

You cant know its a ddmence until it dds, and at that point not even Cresselia can switch in safely.

Also Salamence will outrage on the switch if it expects a bulky Suicune. So Suicune is only relevant if (and to be fair this is a big if) the Salamence is not aware of its presence. IE you save Suicune specifically for the possibilty your opponent has DDmence.

Have a nice day.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

With leads to the one aspect of battling 90% of the entire community always seem to ignore.

Execution.

It is the difference between why Garchomp is Uber, and Salamence shouldn't be. For Pokemon like Garchomp, it could just Swords Dance once, and already has a guarantee 20% to win outright. Salamence you have to actually know how to use it. You don't just switch it in on a ground move and then start DD'ing up right away. You keep it hidden until all the scenarios you want are in place. It's just as if using any other Pokemon. Salamence is no different than any other OU Pokemon. Switching it in is not an automatic win. It does not need to be overcentralized to counter. I would put the same amount of effort into building teams to stop either kinds of Salamence as I would with Infernape and Tyranitar and Metagross and Jirachi.

Speaking of which, let's ban Jirachi.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I agree with everything Aeroblacktyl has said.

. . . let's ban Jirachi.

 

[Aura Guardian]

With leads to the one aspect of battling 90% of the entire community always seem to ignore.

Execution.

It is the difference between why Garchomp is Uber, and Salamence shouldn't be. For Pokemon like Garchomp, it could just Swords Dance once, and already has a guarantee 20% to win outright. Salamence you have to actually know how to use it. You don't just switch it in on a ground move and then start DD'ing up right away. You keep it hidden until all the scenarios you want are in place. It's just as if using any other Pokemon. Salamence is no different than any other OU Pokemon. Switching it in is not an automatic win. It does not need to be overcentralized to counter. I would put the same amount of effort into building teams to stop either kinds of Salamence as I would with Infernape and Tyranitar and Metagross and Jirachi.

Speaking of which, let's ban Jirachi.

I actually agree about Jirachi as Suspect. Anyway, what about Wobbufett? Wasn't Wob was banned despite few people (44th, iirc) using it right because it could be used in a broken way? Mence can *possibly* be used in a broken way, too. So, what's the difference?

 

[JonTheRed]

I actually agree about Jirachi as Suspect. Anyway, what about Wobbufett? Wasn't Wob was banned despite few people (44th, iirc) using it right because it could be used in a broken way? Mence can *possibly* be used in a broken way, too. So, what's the difference?

Wobbuffet is a really strange one, because it pretty much guarantees you'll get at least one free turn to set up a sweeper and whatnot. Its ability combined with Encore is probably the big reason why it's jumped into Ubers.

 

[TheValkyries]

With leads to the one aspect of battling 90% of the entire community always seem to ignore.

Execution.

It is the difference between why Garchomp is Uber, and Salamence shouldn't be. For Pokemon like Garchomp, it could just Swords Dance once, and already has a guarantee 20% to win outright. Salamence you have to actually know how to use it. You don't just switch it in on a ground move and then start DD'ing up right away. You keep it hidden until all the scenarios you want are in place. It's just as if using any other Pokemon. Salamence is no different than any other OU Pokemon. Switching it in is not an automatic win. It does not need to be overcentralized to counter. I would put the same amount of effort into building teams to stop either kinds of Salamence as I would with Infernape and Tyranitar and Metagross and Jirachi.

Speaking of which, let's ban Jirachi.

So what you're saying is... The only difference between Salamence and Garchomp is that Salamence is Idiot-Proof?

I'm sorry, but if we're limiting Uber status to things that are Uber even when idiots are using them, but not things that are Uber when used intelligently, then we're doing something wrong. Quite frankly, I think we should be basing it's tiering status off of it's maximum stand alone potential (i.e. No team support, just straight intelligent play) rather than by how well it's used by the masses.

 

[Efemera]

Jirachi has a fantastic movepool and defensive typing but I don't see how anyone can begin to think that it qualifies as Uber. Flinchhax on physical sets is annoying at best if you don't have a status absorber and on special sets it doesn't have too many advantages over other CMers. It's a pretty good support Pokemon, I suppose. Overall, Jirachi has great stats and is pretty unpredictable (until it uses a move) but it's not nearly dangerous enough to qualify for any of the characteristics of what makes an Uber.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

I actually agree about Jirachi as Suspect. Anyway, what about Wobbufett? Wasn't Wob was banned despite few people (44th, iirc) using it right because it could be used in a broken way? Mence can *possibly* be used in a broken way, too. So, what's the difference?

Wobbuffet can mindlessly kill pretty much any staller right off the bat, most times without even taking damage. And it's not only on the defensive spectrum, it pretty much rapes all scarfers sans special attacking Scarftars or Physical ScarfGars etc. And everyone knows it's pointless to even attempt to set up on Wobbuffet because it's just going to Encore you and let their own Pokes set up. Wobbuffet is also pretty much exempt from any "X allows Y to set up so its _________" arguments because we don't have to use any objective measures against it seeing as how it's a unique case.

So what you're saying is... The only difference between Salamence and Garchomp is that Salamence is Idiot-Proof?

I'm sorry, but if we're limiting Uber status to things that are Uber even when idiots are using them, but not things that are Uber when used intelligently, then we're doing something wrong. Quite frankly, I think we should be basing it's tiering status off of it's maximum stand alone potential (i.e. No team support, just straight intelligent play) rather than by how well it's used by the masses.

What? Do you even know what you're saying? If I comprehend what you're saying, then no, Salamence is not an overdominating stand alone Poke. Shit like Kyogre, Garchomp, Wobbuffet, you just switch in and you get a free kill basically. You can switch in a Water resist or a Dragon resist but chances are they're still going to die within the next move. Salamence absolutely needs support to make it anywhere near powerful. Why am I saying this and why is it true? Because I can guarantee you that I use and play against Salamence 10x better than you ever will, so your understanding on how to use it will hinder your ability to comprehend whether or not it is uber.

 

[FlareBlitz]

You do realize that not forcing a speed tie is loosing right? The fact that mence forces the speed tie instead of just being beaten is all the more in its favor.

Nite can't force that tie. It must switch or die.

I'm really trying to stay out of this whole debacle. Seeing both sides of the argument.
However its really easy to try and push an argument to one side by arbitrarily throwing out facts for no good reason.

Not being able to force the tie is losing, yes, but forcing the tie isn't winning either. A 50% chance of beating a Jirachi or a Flygon isn't very good at all, and if you have a Magnezone or a PursuitTar waiting in the wings switching to that would be a lot smarter.

Essentially the point of my post was that there is exactly one scarfer that solidly beats DNite where it doesn't solidly beat Mence and two scarfers that beat Mence half the time and beat DNite 100% of the time. While that might be significant, the question is "is it significant enough that Dragonite is subtantially slower in common battle conditions and thus unable to sweep". The thing is, both Dnite and Mence outrun everything without a scarf at +1, and DNite only really loses to one Scarfer that Mence can beat 100% of the time, so I'm not seeing any validity in any concerns about its speed.

I also don't have any preconcieved notions about Mence's Ooba/OU status one way or another, especially since I don't play Standard nearly as much as I play Ooba or UU, but given the playtesting I've done so far I just don't see much difference between DNite and Mence, especially not between MixNite and MixMence.

 

[tawp64]

Well, lets just think about OU experience. What usually causes more havoc? Jirachi or Salamence? I'm goin' with Salamence. Jirachi is a good pokemon, but is it really THAT hard to kill? Even if it is, it won't kill much itself. Now on to Salamence, he is a DDer, one of the most dangerous moves in our metagame. Imagine Gyarados without it, it would most likely be a scarfer. But, it has it, so that makes it demonous. Salamence is better than Gyarados at almost everything, making it near Uber. Some things in Uber aren't even as good as Salamence, he is a pure sweeper. Deoxys in def. forme for example hasn't done so much to the metagame as Salamence has done to OU, and probably Uber too. Salamence is just flat out annoying when it can get many of your pokemon.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

You are ignoring the point. Salamence is no bigger threat, in my opinion, than any of the other following Pokes I listed such as Jirachi, Gyarados or Infernape. They all hit hard, and they can all sweep, given the conditions are right. This holds true to absolutely everything. Just like Gyarados or Lucario, you just can't switch in Salamence and automatically win. You have to bid your time until the opportunity is right to use it. And with that said, follow that with any Pokemon and said Pokemon will be dangerous.

And the Jirachi for ban thing was a joke (not that I'd mind). But seriously, how mindless is it to win just by pressing Iron Head to repeatedly flinch shit? I've had full health Magnezone and Heatran die to the gay fucking bullshit before and that is very fucking annoying. And yes, it is fucking hard to kill. In fact, Salamence is twenty times easier to kill. The issue with Salamence is taking a hit. The issue with Jirachi is getting in that hit. This just adds on to the notion that unless you're thoroughly experience with both metagames (OU and suspect) you should probably refrain from posting your uninformed opinions here.

 

[Hipmonlee]

Salamence is significantly less uber than Garchomp, I agree. This however does not mean that it is not uber.

Mence is way harder to deal with than Jirachi, Gyarados or Infernape.

In the case of Jirachi, the damage it will deal to your team is accumulative, as opposed to all happening in one turn, it gives you opportunity to react and prepare. Essentially Jirachi is like a Salamence where you do get to know if it is DD or Mixmence before it will be able to eliminate a pokemon.

Gyarados is just easy to counter. I mean bulky cune is a legitimate hard counter to Gyarados. Unlike in the case of Salamence where it requires having knowledge it is unreasonable to expect anyone to have.

Infernape is pretty scary, but it is essentially a mixedmence without the ddmence option. Infernape is revengeable by essentially any scarfer at all, and a whole bunch of unscarfed pokemon. Whereas in the case of salamence you pretty much have to scarf something that doesnt require a scarf to stop nape, or use infernape or a 50/50. It also switches in on less and has attacks that are resisted by more, meaning that even without counters you at least have a chance of stopping it without significant sacrifice.

But Suicune beating DDmence in an entirely impractical situation is not relevant. And DDmence is a perfectly reasonable set to bring up.

Have a nice day.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

All DDmence does is prove that it is less Uber than it is Uber. DDMence requires you to actually predict to use, and predict to stop. What is one of the most common way of baiting Kingdra? Forcing it to Outrage. Now it brings up real Pokemon battling into the equation. Let's go back to Salamence. You now have to judge base on your opponent's past moves to how he has reacted to other situations. Do you want to Outrage the 70% Swampert now? But what if he brings in a Heatran or Jirachi? And as the Swampert user, do you go right away to your steel type? Or do you let Swampert die and then easily revenge kill it. Salamence makes people battle more. It is healthy for the metagame. It requires knowledge of scenarios and situations. People act as if it hurts the metagame. Sure it hurts if you just repeatedly click Draco Meteor, because it hurts the people who actually know how to battle that has to put up with the consequences caused by ignorant battlers who just assume things.

But hey guess what? Once Salamence goes -2, it's open for a set up sweep. It's like when people always used PursuitTtar as an argument for Latias. Guess what, you're going to be so Lucario fucked.

 

[connoisseur]

Salamence is an uber theorymon.

In practice it is much easier to deal with it. Scizor is reasonably good at halting its sweep and stealth rock and life orb really do add up. Once Mence attacks once, my scizor can have a ball. Bulky Gyarados can roar out Salamence (this is usually what I attempt to do, it usually works with DDMence, with the mix version switch to skarmory after gyara of course and start lolling). ScarfInferape, ScarfStarmie, and ScarfGengar all handily dispatch all mence as well.

And rotom-H is the hard stop to gyarados. Jirachi cannot ever hope to break suicune without the CMTbolt set not many people use.

 

[Mufasa]

Infernape also loses 100% to slowbro, which is not a gimmick pokemon, it actually has uses. And vappy.

I've had full health Magnezone and Heatran die to the gay fucking bullshit before and that is very fucking annoying.

You must have the worst luck ever, looking at it statistically that's highly improbable, even if they don't have leftovers.

Salamence's dragon outrage stab let's hit everything but steel types pretty damn hard after a dd...i wonder why there are so many steel types running around

 

[shrang]

+2 Grass Knot vs OU Countering Utility Slowbro: 117.77% - 139.09%

Have fun. Vappy can give Ape trouble, yes, but if it's taken any sort of prior damage (>25% or so), the Grass Knot also OHKOs.

 

[PK Gaming]

Grass Knot doesn't OHKO due to Vaporeon's light weight. 2+ Focus Blast WILL OHKO though.

 

[lati0s]

so will +2 close combat, SD is imo one of his best sets

 

[connoisseur]

Gyarados is a 100% infernape counter unless +2 Grass Knot kills it.

I believe Cressellia can crush Infernape with Psychic and easily tank a +2 blow.

 

[Obsessed]

Gyarados is a 100% infernape counter unless +2 Grass Knot kills it.

I believe Cressellia can crush Infernape with Psychic and easily tank a +2 blow.

Can Bulky Gyarados take a +1 Thunderpunch (Swords Dance boost - Intimidate Attack Drop)? (legitimate question. I would run damage calcs but I can't remember the url for the calculator)

 

[shrang]

Nope, not happening.

+1 Jolly Infernape vs 252/252 Impish Gyara: 115.74% - 137.06%

 

[TheValkyries]

What? Do you even know what you're saying? If I comprehend what you're saying, then no, Salamence is not an overdominating stand alone Poke. Shit like Kyogre, Garchomp, Wobbuffet, you just switch in and you get a free kill basically.

I guess you missed the original point. You said that the reason Salamence shouldn't be Uber is because of "execution." Sure, some random idiot can come in with Kyogre and spam one move and generally wreck entire teams. But Salamence has the same individual potential in BOTH of his sets if they're played smartly.

You can switch in a Water resist or a Dragon resist but chances are they're still going to die within the next move.

So that's what an overdominating pokemon does, huh? You realize that describes Salamence to a T, right?

Salamence absolutely needs support to make it anywhere near powerful. Why am I saying this and why is it true? Because I can guarantee you that I use and play against Salamence 10x better than you ever will, so your understanding on how to use it will hinder your ability to comprehend whether or not it is uber.

Excellent argument, sir. "I'm right because I say so, and because I say you're a scrub." Think for two seconds, please. If a well placed outrage critically damages your hard DDmence counter, what's going to stop its sweep later? Not powerful without support indeed...


All I'm saying is that execution should not be the deciding factor in Salamence's tiering, as you say it is. The inability of some people to use a weapon doesn't make the weapon safe.