The First Smogon Council - Salamence

[Tayla]

If Salamence is using Draco Meteor in the first place, it is most likely a Mix Mence. We'll use 252/252 Bold Blissey as example here. Earthquake musters 36% max from MixMence. DM 33% max. Dead Salamence if Blissey carries Ice Beam. If Salamence is stupid enough to Outrage after its Draco Meteor, Blissey takes 99.4% damage as a whole without SR or SS, with an opponent locked into an Outrage, or a dead Sally via Ice Beam.

Blissey has merits versus MixMence, but not DDMence. Again, I feel, part of the flavor of Pokemon. There's so many IFs.. lol.

 

[pokemonwargeneral]

can I join in this debate? though this is my first time here I can tell you that salamence SHOULD NOT be band,why,Simply because a lot of other dragons can stop it,by the way for those who did'nt know this,blissy can learn counter and ice beam.my bold,calm,or modest blissey can easily take any mence out with there pink eyes closed!

 

[Korali]

I'm not suggesting a switch in to salamence with a blissey, that would truly be stupid. Sometimes in pokemon, you just have to let what you have out die so that the counter can switch in without taking damage. The fact that Salamence does this sometimes is not reason to make him uber, every pokemon can do this, hell, even walls like blissey can force the opposition to stay in to die to ensure a safe switch-in from time to time. If that Blissey comes in on a non DD'd salamence, she would kill it. I'm not saying she is the best counter, but I'm saying that this argument that pokemon need some super rediculous spec/band-boosted power to OHKO salamence is simply untrue. Yes, not much can kill him with an unboosted Ice Shard (especially after an intimidate), but that's why Ice Shard is a priority move, it's supposed to be weak. People seem to forget that with ludicrously powerful bullet punches flying every which way.

This next part relates to the Garchomp argument, irrelevant to the main content of this thread:
The reason I ignored sand veil in that is because I really only tried to mention Garchomp as the arguments for his uberness relate to the argument for Salamence's. Besides, with evasion clause in effect (without brightpowder), Garchomp still gets countered by that stuff 80% of the time. In a metagame where having many counters that carry 70% accurate focus blast as their primary method to OHKO is considered a reasonable counter (see TTar) having an ability that slightly increases evasion only sometimes is not really a good reason to make an Uber.

A Pokemon shouldn't be so incredibly powerful that somebody is forced to let a Pokemon fall just because it merely exists. Salamence has no check other than Scizor, who even fears Salamence as well due to the Fire Blasts lurking out there.

can I join in this debate? though this is my first time here I can tell you that salamence SHOULD NOT be band,why,Simply because a lot of other dragons can stop it,by the way for those who did'nt know this,blissy can learn counter and ice beam.my bold,calm,or modest blissey can easily take any mence out with there pink eyes closed!

By a lot of other dragons, you mean Dragonite and Altaria, who are both outspeeded and 1HKO'd by Salamence. Please read above, while Blissey has it's merits on fighting Mence, she's not a true contender to fight him as there's too many what if's, the Salamence user could predict the Blissey switch in and Outrage, or he could be packing Brick Break.

 

[pokemonwargeneral]

Another stopper of mence is metagross,tyranitar,or Registeel.I know this do to my battling on rank 10 battle tower Wi-Fi.even if mence has fire blast or earthquake,neither of those attacks can down registeel.and with the maxed out attack adament registeel I use the intimadate from mence has no effect,then regi downs him with one Ice punch!

 

[Tayla]

To say that Salamence has "no checks" is stupid. Cresselia doesn't die to a +1 Outrage, and OHKOs with Ice Beam. There's a "check" right there.

And, as I said, Brick Break fails to significantly dent Bold Blissey. Outraging on a Pokemon you also have no hopes to OHKO also seems kinda silly to me. The player could easily just switch in Cresselia and Ice Beam the trapped Salamence.

 

[pokemonwargeneral]

uh korali, blissy has counter for outrage like I mentioned.And as for dragons,a bulky dragonite can do it now his little extreme speed trick which got my mence on Wi-Fi.my Drageddon had pulled about x3 D dances but since he was wounded ,dragonite came out and extreme speed him away,flygon's max timid speed stat is 328 equal with mence's 328 max speed,therefore a timid draco meteoring flygon can ko Big mence too!

 

[Korali]

Another stopper of mence is metagross,tyranitar,or Registeel.I know this do to my battling on rank 10 battle tower Wi-Fi.even if mence has fire blast or earthquake,neither of those attacks can down registeel.and with the maxed out attack adament registeel I use the intimadate from mence has no effect,then regi downs him with one Ice punch!

Let me humor you and say he's running an Adamant (why on earth you would do that to a Registeell, I'll never know) nature, using the 252HP/168 AtK/88 Def spread with Ice Punch. Let's say he's using an Expert Belt too. This is all an incredibly improbable situation, an Adamant Registeel with Expert Belt in OU with Ice Punch. Yes. You're right, this would oneshot a Salamence, and a Fire Blast would only do 70% damage.

But who in their right mind with give Registeel an Adamant Nature with an expert belt?

 

[pokemonwargeneral]

That is true Helix,I forgot about Cressilia(one of the strongest pokemon I use on Wi-Fi) My modest Full Moon has her Ice beam for mence,chomp etc.

 

[Dracolosse]

I have always thaught of Mence as the most unoriginal pokemon ever created : a big, fat, scary dragon that has huge attacking stats. Nintendo couldn't have come up with anything less original.
In addition, it makes the metagame so unbalanced. It simply prevents the usage of many pokemons and many stall strategies. Mence has a big role in the fact that our metagame is more about sweeping as soon as possible than anything else.

Of course, it is beatable, but it is extremely annoying and there is like no pokemon that can both switch in safely and take it down.....sounds like the reason Garchomp was banned to Ubers.

 

[pokemonwargeneral]

Me Ha Ha! I got me 142+ streak on battle tower too.that 273 attack isn't funny after a couple of curse,or expert belt like you mentioned Korali!

 

[Efemera]

ChouToshio's post has been one of the few posts in this thread that have actually made a solid argument for Salamence being OU. Residual damage does hurt Salamence greatly, usually allowing it to switch in only 2-3 times. However, I think there's a hole in that argument that wasn't sufficiently addressed. Salamence isn't Flygon. It doesn't need many switch-ins to do its job. So although switching it in is a risky move, it at once seizes control of the board (continuing your chess analogy here). Now, I'm not a pro at Pokemon by any means, but I did make it to over 1400 on the ladder pre-Latias ban, so I think I'm at least decent at the game. The assumption that a lot of people are making is that the player using Salamence will just switch it in on any resisted attack and attempt to set up or grab a quick kill. This is anything but the truth. I rarely, if at all, see good players bringing Salamence in on Turn 4. Salamence's go-to switch-ins and revenge killers are easily lured out by other threats. Like you said, Scarfed Flygon isn't going to be hidden in the last slot, because it's built to scout and revenge kill throughout the game. Salamence isn't going to be brought out while that's around (unless you anticipate it switching in and fire off a Draco Meteor). When Salamence does come out, it has precisely the effect of a Queen in chess. Suddenly, it becomes the center of attention. Nothing else in OU has that kind of presence. I don't think it's exactly balanced to have a Pokemon like that in the metagame.

I would also like to add that the game doesn't end when you kill Salamence. A lot of posters have repeated again and again that even if you switch in a bulky Pokemon predicting MixMence and let it get off a DD, that you can revenge kill it by forcing it to Outrage. Ice Shard users, Scizor, Scarfed Flygon something else bulky enough to take a +1 Outrage and 1hko with Stone Edge or Ice Beam. I'd like to point out that every almost single one of these commonly used revenge killers gives another Pokemon a free turn. So you switched in Weavile and got rid of Salamence with Ice Shard. Good for you. Now Gyarados has a free turn to DD, or Metagross has a free turn to Agility, or you also lost you revenge killer in addition to what you lost to Salamence. How many Pokemon carry a Choice Scarf just to revenge Salamence? How many of those Pokemon are going to be locked into a resisted move after they revenge it?

 

[Korali]

We're all suggesting extremely off the wall and improbable situations between Salamence and these so called "checks".

Cressellia had a 2.5% usage in April. That's an incredibly small amount compared to Mence's 20.91%. Nobody should be forced to use a Pokemon merely due to one Pokemon's existence and it's capability of destroying the entire team.

We can argue all day about who checks what and what Mence's moveset does so and so. We're not factoring in things such as Life Orb Recoil, Leftovers, Stealth Rock, and Sandstorm. It's a moot point from here to even suggest things that may look good on paper.

 

[pokemonwargeneral]

On Another Note,I would like to see what pokemon are on this complete banned list smogon version,apparently It's not the usual no event pokemon band list nintendo uses.this banned list on this sight focus on versatility of a peticular pokemon instead,interesting!

 

[Tayla]

People are forced to use Pokemon to counter other Pokemon every single day. That's team synergy. Cresselia isn't a horrific Pokemon. It's a solid support Pokemon. It's usage is kind of moot, as Scizor is king of OU, yet here we are discussing banning Salamence, who's usage isn't anywhere near Scizor's.

There are other things that can check Salamence, also, so being "forced" to use Cresselia is silly if there are other alternatives.

 

[Efemera]

On Another Note,I would like to see what pokemon are on this complete banned list smogon version,apparently It's not the usual no event pokemon band list nintendo uses.this banned list on this sight focus on versatility of a peticular pokemon instead,interesting!

http://www.smogon.com/dp/tiers/uber

Clearly you don't play the same competitive Pokemon that we do and you have no business arguing for or against Salamence in this thread.

People are forced to use Pokemon to counter other Pokemon every single day. That's team synergy. Cresselia isn't a horrific Pokemon. It's a solid support Pokemon. It's usage is kind of moot, as Scizor is king of OU, yet here we are discussing banning Salamence, who's usage isn't anywhere near Scizor's.

Scizor isn't king of OU. It's mostly used for scouting. Even with a SD under its belt it's walled to death by a large number of Pokemon. Its popularity is in large part thanks to threats like Salamence and Latias.

 

[Grovernator]

I have done a few battles with Mence to test it out, kept getting one-shotted by every Ice type pokemon. Can't seem to get a DDance sweep out, might be cuz i haven't played for a while.

 

[Korali]

I have done a few battles with Mence to test it out, kept getting one-shotted by every Ice type pokemon. Can't seem to get a DDance sweep out, might be cuz i haven't played for a while.

Give a person who's never fired a gun in their life a large firearm, and he's bound to hurt himself.

Give an experienced tactical military veteran said weapon, and he's bound to deal some damage.

I'm pretty much gonna simmer down now because I agree 100% with what Efemara said above.

 

[pokemonwargeneral]

That Cressilia usage is wierd to me.I thought garchomp beat Mence when it came to percentage.I guess I need some trainer friend codes to prove that cressilia is a terrible psychic Blissy.

 

[remlabmez]

We're all suggesting extremely off the wall and improbable situations between Salamence and these so called "checks".

Cressellia had a 2.5% usage in April. That's an incredibly small amount compared to Mence's 20.91%. Nobody should be forced to use a Pokemon merely due to one Pokemon's existence and it's capability of destroying the entire team.

We can argue all day about who checks what and what Mence's moveset does so and so. We're not factoring in things such as Life Orb Recoil, Leftovers, Stealth Rock, and Sandstorm. It's a moot point from here to even suggest things that may look good on paper.

lol so no one should use checks and counters for popular pokemon in the metagame? I can name other pokemon capable of sweeping as well, I guess we should just say ohnoes im swept by xxx cause I thinkg using specefic pokemon to counter threats is dumb

 

[pokemonwargeneral]

I joined Smogon this year Efemera,But I've known pokemon battle strategy for years,most people on this site use a lot of hax pokemon,and they seem to over look some pokemon who can knock a lot of over used pokermon just simply because of speed or move pull.I have A friend on this smogon,Dr.Dimentio.We've had our own talks of banned and such.I had to teach him that toe to toe,because of latios speed(350 the fastest dragons he and his sister latias)latios technicaly can beat every other dragon pokemon.with or without soul dew.I have to get ready and sign off but I guess this is all I'm saying.You should have a good Idea of a lot of pokemon,from jolly rhyperiors,to,phisical attacking regice.

 

[Korali]

lol so no one should use checks and counters for popular pokemon in the metagame? I can name other pokemon capable of sweeping as well, I guess we should just say ohnoes im swept by xxx cause I thinkg using specefic pokemon to counter threats is dumb

Most other Pokemon have a good option of counters to use or ways to deal with sweepers. Salamence has only two instances I can think of, and one of them is unreliable. Cresslellia beats Salamence, and Scizor fears getting toasted.

No other sweeper has the defensive capability and the offensive scaryness of Salamence.

 

[baboon 101]

Cressellia had a 2.5% usage in April. That's an incredibly small amount compared to Mence's 20.91%. Nobody should be forced to use a Pokemon merely due to one Pokemon's existence and it's capability of destroying the entire team.

You could say the same for Scizor. You can talk all you want about HP fire on Gengar or Magnezone, but sacraficing that speed IV on Gengar can be suicidal and Magnezone, despite its physical bulk, falls so easily to Earthquake or Close Combat or even Superpower from the scizor it was built to counter. Packing a few fire moves is almost mandatory just because of Scizor, even other steel types such as Metagross and Heatran have a ground weakness, and even Bronzong does not really have all the defenses that he is so often hyped up to have. Without Scizor, teams could be perfectly viable without a fire move.

Does that make scizor uber? No. It makes him an integral part of the game which teams must be flexible enough to handle. Same thing with salamence.

 

[Korali]

You could say the same for Scizor. You can talk all you want about HP fire on Gengar or Magnezone, but sacraficing that speed IV on Gengar can be suicidal and Magnezone, despite its physical bulk, falls so easily to Earthquake or Close Combat or even Superpower from the scizor it was built to counter. Packing a few fire moves is almost mandatory just because of Scizor, even other steel types such as Metagross and Heatran have a ground weakness, and even Bronzong does not really have all the defenses that he is so often hyped up to have. Without Scizor, teams could be perfectly viable without a fire move.

Does that make scizor uber? No. It makes him an integral part of the game which teams must be flexible enough to handle. Same thing with salamence.

Magnezone is a reliable way to counter Scizor. Scizor also doesn't have the bulk that Salamence has, and can be dealt with in many ways. Two earthquakes from anything that has a bit of attacking oomph behind it is usually enough to down Scizor. Most Magnezone are EV'd to outspeed an Adamant Scizor anyways, so your point that Scizor can be Superpowered is moot.

Point being is that Salamence has only one such reliable check/counter, unlike Scizor, who's frail 70 Base HP is it's downfall.

 

[baboon 101]

Point being is that Salamence has only one such reliable check/counter, unlike Scizor, who's frail 70 Base HP is it's downfall.

Only one counter?

Try everything that learns an ice type move in the game, even Blissey.

Almost every special sweeper in the game has at least one viable BoltBeam set, and on the physical side, there is still Weavile, Gyrados (ice fang and outrage) and Tyranitar, just to name three obvious ones.

I'm not defending Salamence because I want to keep him on my team, in fact I hate him and don't use him. He has swept me many a time due to mispredictions on my part or allowing all of his counters to die to early, but I don't look forward to a metagame without him.

 

[Korali]

Only one counter?

Try everything that learns an ice type move in the game, even Blissey.

Almost every special sweeper in the game has at least one viable BoltBeam set, and on the physical side, there is still Weavile, Gyrados (ice fang and outrage) and Tyranitar, just to name three obvious ones.

I'm not defending Salamence because I want to keep him on my team, in fact I hate him and don't use him. He has swept me many a time due to mispredictions on my part or allowing all of his counters to die to early, but I don't look forward to a metagame without him.

....sigh

Weavile is beating a dead horse, not going into that.

Gyarados, meet Stealth Rock. Gyarados, meet Draco Meteor. Salamence not only outspeeds Gyarados, but with SR support can 1HKO it. Never mind that Outrage and Ice Fang are INCREDIBLY RARE on Gyarados' nowadays. Tyranitar is handily dispatched by an Earthquake, and Scarfitar is locked into Stone Edge after handling Salamence, then they can easy switch in to another sweeper like Metagross or Lucario, set up, and finish what Salamence started.

A counter has to be able to switch in to Salamence, not be horribly brutalized by him, and manage to have the potential to finish him off or scare him into a switch.