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NP: UU - Bye Bye Bye
- Thread starter reachzero
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If Toterra learned a Ice move, then maybe...
About Milotic: "banning" Milotic would improve and hamper the metagame at the same time IMO.
There's no replacement for Milotic. The closest one, Slowking, has to deal with the crippling weaknesses to common special attacks.
That would drastically weaken stall. For example, who's going to stop Houndoom from running through any stall team? (good luck with Lanturn).
It's true that Milotic holds off many pokes though...
PS: arrgh, i don't feel like arguing today...
About Milotic: "banning" Milotic would improve and hamper the metagame at the same time IMO.
There's no replacement for Milotic. The closest one, Slowking, has to deal with the crippling weaknesses to common special attacks.
That would drastically weaken stall. For example, who's going to stop Houndoom from running through any stall team? (good luck with Lanturn).
It's true that Milotic holds off many pokes though...
PS: arrgh, i don't feel like arguing today...
It still has access Hidden Power, which could be Ice typed. ^^
Don't insult SD Sceptile. It is absolutely one of the best sweepers in UU. Its high speed lets it rip through offense, and it can still hit stall hard. 76% minimum to Bold max/max Slowbro with Leaf Blade and 63% minumum to 252 HP Registeel with Earthquake at +2 is sexy. Also, QuakeEdge + STAB Leaf Blade is phenomenal, coverage-wise.
Anyways, IMO you could just put "it's like Milotic" for the DC. It's that good. The issue, though, is that we're winnowing down UU by booting everything that gives us trouble. I'm not saying that Raikou and Froslass didn't deserve to go or anything, but I find it highly likely that if we ban Milotic, something else will suddenly become broken, and so on.
Ah, didn't see the 24 SpD.
Haha okay I see your point. (If I ever face you using Infernape/Raichu I'm straight attacking what I force out)
Gotcha. Just a question though, how would you deal with Manectric? It can't set up like Raichu, but would you stay in the specs set (to predict a Trickspecs/Overheat/HP ice?)
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Gosh Nintendo boost up their HP/SpD already.
Ah okay that makes a lot of sense. (she can still Sub or whatever. But how cool would Ampharos + Tail glow be?)
I concede... for now.
But coming of Torterra's... questionable Special attack stat + the EV investments... doesn't seem worth it. (thank god it doesn't learn something silly like Ice punch or some other non-sense)
Shed shell is viable and the argument makes sense. I wasn't comparing the two pokes because they performed or were used simlarly, but because the principle was. Both could be prepared for with viable options making the whole Torterra was too good argument retarded. Also, I put "best trapper" in quotes for a reson because some people believe duggy is. And I never made any reference to you being ban happy. =) I never wanted an argument actually- I just wanted to point out the humor. =D
I absolutely love when people don't get the sarcasm. Oh well whatever, even I can't stand myself posting in this thread. I do agree with the second part of your post though, because if we go that way we'll have Milotic booted -> Moltres booted -> ... -> Magikarp booted because Hoppip can't check it.
Haha classic quote.
But yeah, as much as I hate to see Milotic's ugly mug it checks Moltres. A pokemon that I want to keep in a metagame for secret reasons. Houndoom will also lol at this metagame too. (Although it would be nice to see an increase in Technitop)
If it gets banned, people will start Charizard. While very cool, I'd need to resort to Manectric to always outspeed it instead of my precious Raichu...
A case of domino's.
While I do think Milotic is an absolute bitch, to me, it's like a necessary evil to a whole truckload of Pokemon in line. I mean, if Milotic goes, Aggron, Rhyperior, Houndoom, Moltres (If it stays), Arcanine and a whole host of Pokemon would become a whole lot more dangerous.
Eh just posting this b/c i can but id like to point out that with an LO and a mere 58 spA evs (and a non -spA nature obv.) torterra can guarantee the 2hko on tangrowth+leafeon after SR with hp ice. Also 2hkos defensive altaria and OHKOs offensive versions with SR. Tbh it hits everything you'd hit with stone edge for the same or more damage except for moltres and maybe weezing i guess (dont quote me on this im pretty sure i left something out). Also doing ~80% to other torterras is pretty cool.
I am backing you on this, because i ran a special torterra at the beginning of this round and it did open holes against stalls that were utilizing altaria and Tangrowth...but it was almost useless against everything else... but idk, I just threw it on a team because leafeon and other torterra were becoming popular...IMO it is defintely a surprise to get past all of his counters lol but almost too "gimmicky" to be viable
Oh man, after actually playing for a bit I make sure that I get at least lower reqs, EVERYONE AND THEIR MUM ARE RUNNING AMBIPOM LEADS. What is with that?? Ambipom sucks. I actually had a competition where I gave away a free ladder win (Pretty much a free ragequit) to the first person who wasn't running an Ambipom lead. Turned out to be the very next battler but still.
Anyway, on a more serious matter, CB Kangaskhan is an absolute asshole. Probably the only offensive Pokemon my team has trouble with. It basically comes in and starts spamming Returns, and with Scrappy, something is going to get hurt. This isn't to mention that it has great bulk too.
Anyway, on a more serious matter, CB Kangaskhan is an absolute asshole. Probably the only offensive Pokemon my team has trouble with. It basically comes in and starts spamming Returns, and with Scrappy, something is going to get hurt. This isn't to mention that it has great bulk too.
Ambipom is probably being used because it's extremely consistent as far as leads go. I mean, if you're using an Ambipom, you don't have to worry about random shit surprising you, you either beat something with Fake Out -> Return or you scout and move to a safe switchin with Fake Out -> U-Turn, or if they leave in a typically-slower Pokemon that would be KO'd by Fake Out -> Return you can guess it's scarfed and go to something else.. With Omastar and Cloyster and Rhyperior you have to be on the lookout for Energy Ball Uxie and random shit, which can easily cost you momentum or even a Pokemon.
I guess so. I've been completely dominating it unless it's some other random Ambipom, like AgiliPasser or Rain Dancer (Which gets really annoying). Standard Ambipoms with Fake Out and U-Turn get completely eaten alive by CB Spiritomb, who is immune to Fake Out and completely cripples it as it gets Pursuited on the U-Turn.
Real men use Last Resort Ambipom.
Anyways I've been fucking around with NU's again and CBMuk is beast. Gunk Shot does a shitload to pretty much everything (when it hits) and it gets awesome coverage moves. Explosion is also bad ass and I did like 70% to a Steelix with it.
SubCM Entei is beast and can even set up on Milo if it's in top condition and it Calm Minds on the switch. I use Flamethrower/HP Grass as most Fire-types can't touch you anyway, and Blaziken dies to a gust of wind. 101 Subs are also ftw.
And last but not least I've been changing all my NP Missy's to CM versions. I missed setting up on weak special attackers like Uxie, Slowbro, and Milotic. Many teams crumble to it.
Anyways I've been fucking around with NU's again and CBMuk is beast. Gunk Shot does a shitload to pretty much everything (when it hits) and it gets awesome coverage moves. Explosion is also bad ass and I did like 70% to a Steelix with it.
SubCM Entei is beast and can even set up on Milo if it's in top condition and it Calm Minds on the switch. I use Flamethrower/HP Grass as most Fire-types can't touch you anyway, and Blaziken dies to a gust of wind. 101 Subs are also ftw.
And last but not least I've been changing all my NP Missy's to CM versions. I missed setting up on weak special attackers like Uxie, Slowbro, and Milotic. Many teams crumble to it.
I'm running a 252 Satk Timid monkey with Taunt/NP/Swift/Water Pulse and holding a Lum berry. Works pretty well. STAB Technician Swift coming off 438 Satk is decent, and even playing against people who know I'm not using the standard crap, it can do some damage - most things that wall it (Chansey, Milotic, Registeel) get crippled by Taunt, and there's always the chance of confusion from Water Pulse.
Really, though, I see no reason to just mindlessly click Fake Out on turn 1, as it probably won't do anything. It's ok later when you want to stop Swellow from overrunning your Offensive team, but other than that it leaves to be desired. What is nice, though, is that people who spam Fake Out + U-Turn don't realize that I get an essentially free hit every time they turn.
Really, though, I see no reason to just mindlessly click Fake Out on turn 1, as it probably won't do anything. It's ok later when you want to stop Swellow from overrunning your Offensive team, but other than that it leaves to be desired. What is nice, though, is that people who spam Fake Out + U-Turn don't realize that I get an essentially free hit every time they turn.
I was about to post just about the same thing FlareBlitz said... I guess I'll just add that it is good enough that I have to run protect on every lead I run to not take the nasty 17-40% from Fake Out.
I'm particularly fond of Swellow and Hariyama leads. The turn you protect the fake out your flame orb activates boosting your attack to obscene levels. Hariyama is different in that it is walled only by Spiritomb and Slowbro and beaten only by Moltres and strong Psychic types. Swellow is again stopped by a small amount of pokes, but those pokes really do hard check it and I hate giving free setup to Aggron/Registeel/Rhyperior, so I usually run a set that consists of Protect/Substitute/Facade/Baton Pass(Brave Bird) to beat the lead game with enough HP to rarely have my sub broken by Ambipom's U-Turn.
I'm particularly fond of Swellow and Hariyama leads. The turn you protect the fake out your flame orb activates boosting your attack to obscene levels. Hariyama is different in that it is walled only by Spiritomb and Slowbro and beaten only by Moltres and strong Psychic types. Swellow is again stopped by a small amount of pokes, but those pokes really do hard check it and I hate giving free setup to Aggron/Registeel/Rhyperior, so I usually run a set that consists of Protect/Substitute/Facade/Baton Pass(Brave Bird) to beat the lead game with enough HP to rarely have my sub broken by Ambipom's U-Turn.
Really, if you aren't gonna add something substantially important to the discussion why even bother posting? HP Ice's benefits over Stone Edge have already been explained and although (IMHO) they don't outweight having the former, it's not like using HP Ice is equally absurd as using HP Flying on Rotom to check Heracross; and is definitely much more viable than many of the stuff you get to post here.
Upon playing this metagame more frequently, I've realized that this metagame isn't all that different from other metagames other than that the "OMG suspects 1 and 2 might kill my team at any moment!!!" mentality isn't needed anymore. Every banlist change has left certain previously great strategies in the dust, and I've been rather foolish to think that my favoured strategies were immune to this just because they survived the other metagames. People who succeeded in the early onslaught of WTF seem to have simply been "lucky" or were aware enough to anti-metagame a metagame with no specific suspect. Or they're just awesome. I guess it was jarring to the rest of us that the early metagame consisted of diversity overload rather than centralization overload.
Anyway, I'm glad that the metagame has settled down again. Scouting is actually relevant again! This makes me happy. Also, I've been getting worse at OU/Suspect again. Order has been restored...? Also, what happened to Weezing?
Anyway, I'm glad that the metagame has settled down again. Scouting is actually relevant again! This makes me happy. Also, I've been getting worse at OU/Suspect again. Order has been restored...? Also, what happened to Weezing?
No, it's not. (and i stopped posting random gimmicks here, if you want to know).
What do you use, Rock Polish and HP Ice?
Let's see...
1- Unless you do some magical prediction, Tangrowth comes in on Rock Polish/EQ/Wood Hammer and puts you to sleep while you fail to KO it with HP Ice. Tangrowth wins 60% of the time (unless you've already seen Tangrowth coming in before and uses HP Ice next time... which even then it could just switch out.)
2-Leafeon is almost on the same situation: the difference is that Torterra has this one on it's favor. Unless it carries Yawn (unlikely), Torterra can stand a Leaf Blade and 2HKO with HP Ice... it loses when you use Wood Hammer/EQ on the switch though.
3-Altaria gets KOed by Stone Edge just fine. HP Ice Torterra gets stalled by bulky Altaria using Roost to cut the damage. Also, if it RP on the switch and uses HP Ice but fails to KO, there's always the switching option (not to say Altaria won't dare to switch into Torterra in fear of Stone Edge).
4-Weezing is a lost cause. Don't try to take it with Torterra: you can't.
5-Torterra doesn't counter Torterra. HP Ice still doesn't KO (at leat that's what someone here said: it deals 80%), but at least you're preservng some health since you won't need to use Wood Hammer...
The solution: giving Torterra more sp.atk EVs. Is this worth it?
What do you lose without Stone Edge:
1-Moltres. This is bad, really bad.
2-Drifblim/Articuno. Those are not even UU, so whatever. Didn't even Bolded them. But they show themselves on UU sometimes, and giving a free sub to Articuno or free CM for Drifblim is annoying.
3-Overall usefulness: So yeah, you're using HP Ice to pick your counters off guard... but you see, they have to be REALLY off guard for you to win.
The flashback is from HP Ice Heracross trying to defeat old Gliscor. Yeah, way back and more like this Torterra discussion: giving something to KO it's usual counters.
I concur. It doesn't impress. Most of UU's leads don't give 2 shits about Fake out and heavily damage Ambipom if they it stays in and taunt. Don't know about NP but... yeah it doesn't impress. Maybe as a stand alone sweeper?
And I also agree with CB Kangaskhan. For a pokemon with 90 Base attacks, it's moves hurt badly and it's even got aqua tail to screw over Aggron/Rhyperior.
Congrats.
Not going to lie you guys (shields self) Weezing isn't that good imo. It's naked on the special side, has no reliable healing and it's *great* defense stats are somewhat ruined by it's poor HP. It's typing is phenomenal though. Meh just my lowly opinion.
First, it has Synthesis, not Rock Polish. Second, switching out once you see Tangrowth/Leafeon/Torterra and catch it on the switch-in doesn't require you to be a genious (also, bulky Torterra is meant to counter offensive Torterra, which means that if he switches on something like Wood Hammer it's already on HP Ice's range). Third, I never talked about Altaria or Weezing, Folgorio did (actually only about Altaria, which he mentioned you could still kill if you used HP Ice, but never saying Stone Edge wasn't better doing that); while Weezing can't be broken no matter what attack you have). Fourth, except for this thread that pretty much spreads one's sets all over the ladder, I guess no one would expect an HP Ice Torterra, and that's what I call really off guard (I myself would just lol if I saw that against me). Oh and finally, I introduce you to HP Fire Latias; and just like it can call out Scizor to make it easier for other teammates to sweep, Torterra can remove things like Tangrowth and Leafeon and make it easier for Feraligatr to sweep. Oh, and giving HP Ice to something with 75 base attack isn't as stupid as giving it to something with 40 base attack, that I bet doesn't even 2HKO.
Edit: I actually bothered calculating... 116 Atk vs 186 Def & 354 HP (70 Base Power): 164 - 196 (46.33% - 55.37%)
Oh and regarding the gimmick part, sorry I didn't know Curse Slowking and Sub SD Rampardos weren't gimmicks.
Edit: I actually bothered calculating... 116 Atk vs 186 Def & 354 HP (70 Base Power): 164 - 196 (46.33% - 55.37%)
Oh and regarding the gimmick part, sorry I didn't know Curse Slowking and Sub SD Rampardos weren't gimmicks.
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