The First Smogon Council - Salamence

[capefeather]

Man, addressing every bad post in this thread since I last saw it would take forever and I only have like five minutes, so I'll just pick one:

@Randomdog, that article is stupid, do not even bother, while it does have some valid points, it clearly has no use in such a complex game. If we used that logic, there would be only a few ubers...Also its not like we are outlawing the pokemon, just moving it to a more appropriate tier to keep OU balanced.

The article is not stupid. The people quoting the article are stupid for misusing it so many times. If they'd read Play to Win further they'd have realized that Sirlin concedes that a ban is warranted if it drastically improves the metagame. This, in case they hadn't noticed, is the entire point of this Suspect test.

 

[Bamce]

- misrepresentation of Sirlin's article to say that people should stop complaining and try to find ways around Salamence (even though the same article says sometimes things are clearly overpowered and should be banned to improve the metagame, and we've been playing with Salamence for years now)

I would make the argument that salamence isn't "clearly overpowered". If he was then he would have been tested long ago. Or there would be less controversy.

Mence, in the air of sirlin, seems to me as more of slightly broken, than fully broken. Perhaps mence = sf4 sagat. Clearly superior, but not game breaking.

 

[Longfellow]

It's worth mentioning that Sirlin comes from a fighting-game background and his article is meant for the noobs who grief that "grabs are cheap!" or "spamming projectiles is dishonorable!" These claims are dumb for many reasons, which Sirlin discusses at some length. One, they're often just wrong; grabs, for instance, are needed to hit someone who blocks, so banning them makes no sense. Two, the scrubs often clamor for "soft bans", like "don't use Hadouken too often", which are untenable in tournaments. Three, these scrubs insist they're better than the pros who use moves they don't like, when really if they were any good they would win.

None of these applies to the Salamence ban. If anything it applies more to people who insist on using UU teams in OU and decry everyone else for being uncreative or unskilled.

 

[Bamce]

Completely irrelevant as 102 speed lets it outspeed the base 100s, 100% of the time. That speed allows it to do potentially so much more than the 20 extra speed allows Salamence to do when compared to Dragonite. Just because I am saying Salamence doesn't do alot more than Dragonite with 20 extra speed, does not equate to me saying SPEED HAS NO EFFECT ON OFFENSIVE ABILITIES or IF SOMETHING HAS LESS THAN 20 BASE SPEED DIFFERENCE WITH SOEMTHING ELSE, THEN THEY ARE ALMOST EQUAL IN TERMS OF EFFECTIVENESS.

I fail to see how you are able to understand the 2 speed being a difference, yet the 20 speed not.

I could see you switch in any number of threats be it with scarf or not and have a 100% chance of killing nite. Before it can kill me. There are 23 pokes who are faster than nite(in just the ou teir). 8 of which are typically or have capablity to be defensive sets

Celebi
jirachi
zapdos
tentacruel
gliscor
rotom
suicune
gyrados

Without a DD there is a decent chance you won't be beating these. Can't be a wall breaker if you are being killed first eh?

Edit:

It's worth mentioning that Sirlin comes from a fighting-game background and his article is meant for the noobs who grief that "grabs are cheap!" or "spamming projectiles is dishonorable!" These claims are dumb for many reasons, which Sirlin discusses at some length. One, they're often just wrong; grabs, for instance, are needed to hit someone who blocks, so banning them makes no sense. Two, the scrubs often clamor for "soft bans", like "don't use Hadouken too often", which are untenable in tournaments. Three, these scrubs insist they're better than the pros who use moves they don't like, when really if they were any good they would win.

None of these applies to the Salamence ban. If anything it applies more to people who insist on using UU teams in OU and decry everyone else for being uncreative or unskilled.

While I do agree that most of what is in those articles is directed at fighting games. A majority of it can easily be applied to anything competitive.

I lean towards the shouldn't be banned statement. I see the argument for banning him, I understand it. I don't feel I've ever been impacted by him in such a way. Granted I didn't play for real when the chomp era was around so I can't (and don't) draw that comparison.

Alot of what sirlin speaks is, lean, adapt, evolve. That can be applied to anything. As nature has showed us, that which doesn't evolve dies out.

 

[blasphemy1]

I fail to see how you are able to understand the 2 speed being a difference, yet the 20 speed not.

I could see you switch in any number of threats be it with scarf or not and have a 100% chance of killing nite. Before it can kill me. There are 23 pokes who are faster than nite(in just the ou teir). 8 of which are typically or have capablity to be defensive sets

Celebi
jirachi
zapdos
tentacruel
gliscor
rotom
suicune
gyrados

Without a DD there is a decent chance you won't be beating these. Can't be a wall breaker if you are being killed first eh?

To be fair, most of these Pokemon run EV spreads that are slower than the MixNite set. Also, physically defensive Zapdos is OHKO'd most of the time by Draco Meteor w/SR, while the special defensive is always 2HKO'd with rocks. Gliscor is easily OHKO'd by Draco Meteor, and Rotom-A takes 80.9% minimum. The only Gyarados set that can OHKO Dragonite is the offensive DDer with Ice Fang, which is always OHKO'd with Draco Meteor + SR. Celebi is 2HKO'd by a combination of Draco Meteor + Fire Blast. If Dragonite has Thunderbolt, and predicts a Suicune/Tentacruel switch-in, then it easily 2HKO's them both with just Thunderbolt + SR (or Thunderbolt + Draco Meteor). Jirachi can switch into anything except Fire Blast, and can OHKO with an attack invested Ice Punch, however that is fairly easy bait for Magnezone.

However, Dragonite is simply too slow to fire off Draco Meteor's against the majority of OU. It isn't so much about things coming in to check him, as it is most Pokemon having the ability to attack him without switching out in fear of a OHKO. Salamence can easily force out a Pokemon like Gyarados in fear of Draco Meteor, but this is not the case for Dragonite.

 

[Objection]

I am providing you the resources to get an answer to your question. I'm not at fault for you not wanting to do some research.

I already knew what a valid argument is in general. If you genuinely knew what a valid argument is, you would have given your own definition. The fact that you have not done so yet suggests that you don't know what a valid argument is.

You are asking someone who does not think Salamence is uber to give a valid argument that Salamence IS uber. See the flaw?

Nope. It prompts you to give a logical argument along the lines of "If Salamence is Uber, it would be xyz. However, it isn't xyz, therefore it isn't Uber." Replace xyz with what you feel makes a pokemon Uber, being as specific as possible.

Well if you were to read the posts, you would know that we are discussing Dragonite to answer questions similar to: 'If Salamence is suspect, why isn't Dragonite?' and to express why we think Salamence is too similar to Dragonite to make it uber or if we don't think that etc.

It is because they are quite similar and it just brings up alot of questions about why Salamence is apparently such a uber mon where various offensive pokes that present just as much of a threat aren't.

None of this matters. Dragonite is not exactly the same as Salamence, therefore it is an entirely separate case.

 

[Jaxx]

Dragonite is out sped my a lot of things. The only thing Dragonite and Salamence share is a Dragon/Flying typing. Dragonite shouldn't be compared to Salamence AT ALL.

 

[Robb90000]

Now that I'm thinking a little more over it, perhaps we should make Salamence a temporary Limbo; we just moved Latias to Ubers, and as May 2010 statistics aren't out yet (props to Doug for making those amazing lists for us), we've no idea if Cresselia would be more viable in the current metagame, or if Regirock is actually being used enough in OU with Tyranitar to consider it a true counter.

 

[SushiOnToast]

I fail to see how you are able to understand the 2 speed being a difference, yet the 20 speed not.

I could see you switch in any number of threats be it with scarf or not and have a 100% chance of killing nite. Before it can kill me. There are 23 pokes who are faster than nite(in just the ou teir). 8 of which are typically or have capablity to be defensive sets

Celebi
jirachi
zapdos
tentacruel
gliscor
rotom
suicune
gyrados

Without a DD there is a decent chance you won't be beating these. Can't be a wall breaker if you are being killed first eh?

Right,I'll rip your arguments apart if I really have to:
I see we are addressing the wallbreaker set, as you say that Nite cannot break these 'walls' (defensively created mons) because they kill Nite first.

Mixnite speed on analysis: 246

See below for defensive set's speed of each of your named mons:

Celebi-245
jirachi***-244
zapdos-244
tentacruel-236
gliscor-280
rotom-230
suicune-206
gyrados-201

***I assume this is CM wish Jirachi as Jirachi doesn't have a defensive set in particular

As you can see, Mixnite outspeeds all of those mons defensive sets apart from Gliscor. Now consider what this Gliscor is going to do when it hits this amazing first hit on Dragonite, I'd say toxic is worse case scenario, and while you do that Nite is going to tear you a new one dealing 92.7% - 109.3% with DM.

Actually, what are ANY of those things doing back to Dragonite? Apart from Suicune who often carries Ice Beam. Whereas, EVERYONE SINGLE ONE is getting 2hkoed with stealth rock (common battle conditions).

You see now why the 20 speed makes no difference when it comes to the wallbreaking Dragonite does?

Now I'll move onto the offensive threats

The only pokes that matter of those 23 are the ones that cannot outspeed/ tie with Mence. This leaves the following 9:

Electivire
Gliscor
Lucario
Roserade
Rotom-A
Heracross
Kingdra
Suicune
Gyarados

Out of those, I am going to leave out Heracross because CS is going to be faster than Mence, and CB usually doesn't max speed. Rotom-A rarely runs the speed necessary to outrun Dragonite without Scarf so that can be excluded too. Now I will exclude the ones that just aren't beating Dragonite with common sets. This means Gyarados, Lucario (Ice Punch is not common so don't come back at me with that shit), Gliscor are all excluded. This leaves Suicune, Kingdra, Electivire and Roserade. Roserade only beats Dragonite if it has hidden power: ice. Of these, of course NONE can switch in without risk of being OHKOed bar Suicune who is still taking upwards of 67%. If you choose to have ExtremeSpeed on the set (can be chosen as fourth slot) then that is an OHKO with rocks anyway.

This is why this 20 speed difference just does not matter on the wallbreaker/ offensive set without DD. Garchomp is in its own speed tier above base 100s, it speaks for itself really.

Now if we go onto when Dragonite is at +1, the only common scarfer that is going to beating Dragonite, that can't beat Salamence, is Rotom-A. That is 1 Scarfer,1. Rotom-A is setup bait for the DDset.

I'm not going to move other arguments as to why Dragonites offensive/defensive DD sets are barely any worse/ worse at all than Salamences' unless I am forced to, as I've already explained in various posts what I think on that matter.

So now that I have posted the above, how on EARTH do you justify saying there is a decent chance that Dragonite won't be beating those pokes you listed Bamce??

EDIT: @ Blasphemy - Why would Gyarados not have to fear Dragonite firing off a Draco Meteor? Bulky Dragon Dance is outsped and takes 70% - 82.7% compared to Salamence dealing 70.8% - 83.5%. Each with their respective Mixed sets. Yes it could be the offensive variation of Gyarados and I'd admit that offensive Gyarados can beat Dragonite with a stone edge/ice fang.

EDIT2: @ Blasphemy again - What is Salamence more effective at forcing out that Dragonite isn't? This list is going to be minimal.

 

[SushiOnToast]

Apologies for the double post but editing in all these quotes and stuff would take a while.

I already knew what a valid argument is in general. If you genuinely knew what a valid argument is, you would have given your own definition. The fact that you have not done so yet suggests that you don't know what a valid argument is.

That is what a 12 year old says bud O.o I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I!
C'mon, I know what a valid argument is and the part that I feel is not being met by you, and alot of other people is JUSTIFYING the conclusion you come to. I.E. If you say 'Salamence can wreck walls better than Dragonite' (it can't), then provide damage calcs showing that Salamence gets these 2hkos on walls that Dragonite cannot get (you won't be able to...). Otherwise, the argument given is as wishy washy as I said originally.

Nope. It prompts you to give a logical argument along the lines of "If Salamence is Uber, it would be xyz. However, it isn't xyz, therefore it isn't Uber." Replace xyz with what you feel makes a pokemon Uber, being as specific as possible.

Why would that prompt me to do the above...you said give an argument for Mence being uber... if you want me to do the opposite, then you have to say the opposite to what you said. You can try asking again.

Also, what makes an Uber pokemon Uber is individual to each case, unless you want to use general guidelines, AKA the characteristics provided to us.

None of this matters. Dragonite is not exactly the same as Salamence, therefore it is an entirely separate case.

It is not exactly the same, yet it is very similar. (PLEASE try disagreeing with that >.>) Therefore, it is perfectly acceptable to compare the two in the way that myself and others are doing.

If me or anyone else wants to compare the two in this thread, we are completely justified in doing so because they share enough similarities to warrant a comparison. Nobody gets answers if questions aren't asked.

Edit: @ Kurashi below - Only a handful of those actually commonly carry a super effective move and you need to recognise that Dragonite is faster than the defensive versions of all but 1 of them. You have to also realise that Dragonite is setting up on alot of them if you run the DD set ,it doesn't even need to force them out.

You say that Salamence punishes bad switches...but Dragonite punishes them EQUALLY.

QUESTION THAT NEEDS TO BE ANSWERED: Why can Salamence force so many more pokes out than Dragonite? Those that are saying this need to JUSTIFY IT >.>

 

[KurashiDragon]

Ok I gotta make a statement to the 2 pages of people trying to compare Dragonite to salamence. One of the recent posts made me think about this argument for a second and I gotta say that they are similar in their power. I won't say that it's exactly the same in that Mixmence will probably net more kills with DM then dragonite. (I'll take a look at some damage calculations later) However it's not just about their strength. That speed actually does make a difference but nobody seems to be explaining it correctly so I mostly just remained confused.

Simplifying it: With that 20 base speed difference salamence can threaten alot of poke "Upon Switching in."


Celebi
jirachi
zapdos
tentacruel
gliscor
rotom
suicune
gyarados

As it turns out all these things are faster than Dragonite as stated above and therefore Dragonite cannot immidiatally pose a threat against them. In turn alot of these pokes can imidiatally threaten Dragonite with their higher speed and SE moves. Salamence with it's 20 base higher speed, 10 base higher sp. atk and intimidate ability can actually force a switch against these pokes and inflict tons of damage on most of anything that switches in if your opponent makes a bad predicition. I won't say that mence can force a switch 100% of the time and that dragonite can't force a switch 100% of the time but mence has an extremely higher chance of forcing them out than dragonite.

What makes salamence broken is it's ability to force switches with it's higher base speed, sp atk, and abilities. This is also the main reason why dragonite is much more balanced in the metagame.

I'm really not sure how I can make it any simpler than that. If I made any mistakes plz don't hesitate to say thim.

Oh yea, in case your wondering I'm pro ban.

 

[Longfellow]

Alot of what sirlin speaks is, lean, adapt, evolve. That can be applied to anything. As nature has showed us, that which doesn't evolve dies out.

That's not a reason not to ban something, though. It's a response to the scrubs who insist they would win if everybody used their house rules, and it's only valid if the house rules are bad in other ways (would you say "Play to win" to the pros who ban Akuma?). When a whole community wants to change the rules, however, things are different. For one, Smogon isn't trying to nurse anyone's ego.


Also, re: the Salamence/Dragonite comparison, has anybody paid attention to the Suspect ladder? The actual battles can tell us if Dragonite can do the same work Salamence does in Standard. We needn't even resort to theorymon.

 

[SushiOnToast]

Mixmence will probably net more kills with DM then dragonite. (I'll take a look at some damage calculations later)



I won't say that mence can force a switch 100% of the time and that dragonite can't force a switch 100% of the time but mence has an extremely higher chance of forcing them out than dragonite.

I have cut your post down to the above as I edited my previous post in response to some of your original post.

Now in response to your first statement: Don't bother

All below calcs are assuming Mixnite and New Mixmence from their analysis pages.

Mixnite:
Superpower vs 252/252 Bold Blissey 79.8% - 94.1%
Draco Meteor vs 252/0 Relaxed Swampert 70% - 82.7%
Fire Blast vs 252/252 Careful Skarmory 80.2% - 94.6%

Mixmence:
Outrage vs 252/252 Bold Blissey 55.9% - 66%
Draco Meteor vs 252/0 Relaxed Swampert 71.3% - 83.9%
Fire Blast vs 252/252 Careful Skarmory 80.8% - 95.2%

As you can see there is barely noticable difference in the damage calcs, with the exception of Dragonite having an advantage against Blissey. Salamence would deal more against Heatran, but Dragonite still deals 92.3% - 109% to 4/0 Heatran, meaning OHKO with rocks.
So no, Mixmence will not 'net more kills' (^._.)>



For your second point, just because you say 'mence has an extremely higher chance of forcing them out than dragonite.' doesn't make it true. Why would I be in a different mindset if I had a Swampert out against a Salamence to if I was against a Dragonite??? Why would I be any more/less likely to switch out to one than the other???

This is what I mean by people not giving justification for this 'Salamence can achieve so much more' crap.

EDIT: @ Longfellow - Yes I've been playing both ladders regularly the last week and this is why I am voicing my opinions so much, I'm not seeing a difference between the two in terms of performance.

 

[Tortferngatr]

I have cut your post down to the above as I edited my previous post in response to some of your original post.

Now in response to your first statement: Don't bother

All below calcs are assuming Mixnite and New Mixmence from their analysis pages.

Mixnite:
Superpower vs 252/252 Bold Blissey 79.8% - 94.1%
Draco Meteor vs 252/0 Relaxed Swampert 70% - 82.7%
Fire Blast vs 252/252 Careful Skarmory 80.2% - 94.6%

Mixmence:
Outrage vs 252/252 Bold Blissey 55.9% - 66%
Draco Meteor vs 252/0 Relaxed Swampert 71.3% - 83.9%
Fire Blast vs 252/252 Careful Skarmory 80.8% - 95.2%

As you can see there is barely noticable difference in the damage calcs, with the exception of Dragonite having an advantage against Blissey. Salamence would deal more against Heatran, but Dragonite still deals 92.3% - 109% to 4/0 Heatran, meaning OHKO with rocks.
So no, Mixmence will not 'net more kills' (^._.)>



For your second point, just because you say 'mence has an extremely higher chance of forcing them out than dragonite.' doesn't make it true. Why would I be in a different mindset if I had a Swampert out against a Salamence to if I was against a Dragonite??? Why would I be any more/less likely to switch out to one than the other???

This is what I mean by people not giving justification for this 'Salamence can achieve so much more' crap.

Counterargument dredged up from topic:

Salamence is harder to revenge without crap/nigh crap pokes.

Salamence could force switches more easily with Intimidate+enough speed to threaten stuff to GET that DD up. Dragonite takes more skill to abuse than Mence and comes in on less, and remember that some Pokemon can just run more speed anyway.

Would you keep a physical attacker in on Mence, to counter your counterargument to this? Please prove D-nite can force all the offensive Pokemon to switch Mence does.

I have no position; I'm simply pointing out what others have pointed out.

 

[KurashiDragon]

@ SushiOnToast

Swampert is a bad example cause that's just it. Your in a bad situation with both Dragonite and salamence just because of how many swamperts would carry an ice move. We're not looking for pokes that would put them both in a bad situation we're comparing them because there are things that Salamence can force out that Dragonite can't.

I believe I mentioned in my post that Salamence won't always force a pokes out just like I mentioned that Dragonite can force switches itself.

That's just it though Salamence can achieve more than dragonite can. The different stats and abilities of the two pokemon give them different roles to play. The role of Salamence is much more obvious and essential.

I'm actually kind of glad Dragonite can net those kills. Makes me feel better about picking Dragonite as my most favorite pokes. lol

 

[Objection]

That is what a 12 year old says bud O.o I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I!

That is not what I said.

Remember that you were talking about valid arguments before I asked you what one was. If you cannot give your own definition of a valid argument, then you don't know what one is and therefore should not be talking about valid arguments in the first place.

C'mon, I know what a valid argument is and the part that I feel is not being met by you, and alot of other people is JUSTIFYING the conclusion you come to. I.E. If you say 'Salamence can wreck walls better than Dragonite' (it can't), then provide damage calcs showing that Salamence gets these 2hkos on walls that Dragonite cannot get (you won't be able to...). Otherwise, the argument given is as wishy washy as I said originally.

When did you say that?

I am not proposing anything except Dragonite is irrelevant to Salamence, and that was on the side. What I am mainly saying is that the argument you were making was flawed. It may be that Dragonite is as good a wallbreaker as Salamence, but you dismissed everything other than attack, special attack and attacking moves, not considering the fact that Dragonite needs to be faster than what it hits and/or able to survive enough hits from its opponent so that it is able to use enough attacks to KO its opponent.

Even when you list the pokemon that have higher base speed than Dragonite but not Salamence, you automatically assume that the most common defensive EV spread is the only one that there can be. It is possible for those pokemon to run speed EVs in order to outspeed Dragonite and still be defensive.

Why would that prompt me to do the above...you said give an argument for Mence being uber... if you want me to do the opposite, then you have to say the opposite to what you said. You can try asking again.

I did not ask why is Salamence Uber. I asked what specific traits would make Salamence Uber and does Salamence have those traits (if not then he's not Uber).

Also, what makes an Uber pokemon Uber is individual to each case, unless you want to use general guidelines, AKA the characteristics provided to us.

The general guidelines are just that: general guidelines. They are very open to interpretation, so if you're going to use them, you must give your interpretation and give every last detail of it, right down to the stats and moves.

It is not exactly the same, yet it is very similar. (PLEASE try disagreeing with that >.>)

Even if Dragonite is similar to Salamence, the fact that it is not exactly the same and not a pokemon that affects Salamence makes it irrelevant, much like toast is irrelevant to a discussion about cereal.

I will end by saying this: Dragonite's characteristics have no effect whatsoever on Salamence's tier placement. Dragonite as a pokemon does not significantly affect Salamence. Therefore, Dragonite is irrelevant.

 

[SushiOnToast]

Counterargument dredged up from topic:

Salamence is harder to revenge without crap/nigh crap pokes.

Salamence could force switches more easily with Intimidate+enough speed to threaten stuff to GET that DD up. Dragonite takes more skill to abuse than Mence and comes in on less, and remember that some Pokemon can just run more speed anyway.

Would you keep a physical attacker in on Mence, to counter your counterargument to this? Please prove D-nite can force all the offensive Pokemon to switch Mence does.

I have no position; I'm simply pointing out what others have pointed out.

Revengers that can effectively revenge Dragonite (assuming neither dragon has a boost) that cannot revenge Salamence are a handful. Offensive Suicune..Kingdra..Offensive Gyarados...Electivire...........I'd only call Suicune and Gyarados worthy of 'common' poke. Long list huh? Feel free to add some on if you can think of any.

I have already said umpteen times the limited amount of pokemon that effectively beat Dragonite that don't beat Mence due to speed enough times for my liking, therefore, you must be attributing most of this 'forcing out' logic to Intimidate. Dragonite can forces out anything that you'd force out with intimidate, and if they don't switch out, they die. I'm going to list all physical pokemon (due to your main backup of your point being intimidate) in the top 30 that Salamence forces out if it comes in after a kill and RED the ones that Dragonite also forces out/ beats if they stay in.

(assuming no boosts)
Scizor
Lucario
Machamp
Breloom
Bronzong
Forretress
Any Scarf mon locked into a NFE move (Flygon...er yeah thats all I can see/ think of thats physical)

(I'm assuming Dragonite is 4/0 with all below calcs)

Scizor is doing 39.3% - 46.5% to Salamence after intimidate. If Salamence tries to setup,it is 2hkoed with rocks. If Salamence fire blasts, Scizor dies.
Scizor is doing 52.2% - 61.4% to Dragonite with no intimidate. If Dragonite tries to setup,it is 2hkoed. If Dragonite fire blasts, Scizor dies.
Scizor may not switch out, but if it doesn't then the same result happens with both dragons.

Lucario will switch out of Salamence as long as Salamence is in decent health, no questions asked. (ignoring gutsy ice punch users). I don't think a good Salamence user would try to set up on Lucario as doing so could full well result in losing your Salamence so Salamence cannot afford to DD.
Lucario may choose to CC Dragonite as it is faster to deal 40.1% - 47.2% which will simply get Lucario roasted/smashed up in some way, shape or form as the Dragonite user wouldn't try to set up on it, the same as Salamence's situation with Lucario.
Once again, the same result is occuring.

Machamp is slower than both dragons and I have already shown that the 2 dragons attacking power does not affect any KOs, therefore, it is only logical that the same result would occur regardless of the dragon in question. If Machamp is going to switch out of Salamence, there is no reason that it would stay in on Dragonite. Due to most Machamp having Stone edge or Ice punch, they could choose to stay in to prevent risk of setup and that would result in a Salamence with <10% hp, great,1 more attack. Whereas Dragonite would have died.

Breloom once again is slower than both dragons. It is hard to say whether intimidate will be in effect when Salamence comes in as Salamence can't switch directly in due to threat of spore...BUT I will assume it is in effect and Breloom is behind a sub (this is going to be the scenario due to Breloom being Breloom, and if you don't agree, then you have no experience with/ against Breloom with a Salamence). Salamence cannot setup on Breloom as it will be swiftly 2hkod with rocks + 1 LO recoil. Salamence must therefore break the sub first time. Salamence can then force Breloom out or it will die. (Salamence left with about 40-45% HP)
In Dragonites situation the exact same will happen (you can't disagree with this...) but Dragonite will be left with 25% HP roughly.
Both dragons force Breloom out eventually.

Bronzong + Forry + Skarm are fairly straightforward and I do not think they warrant an explanation of what will happen. Both Bronzong and Forry could choose to explode killing both dragons. If they would switch out against Salamence, there is no reason they would not do the same against Dragonite as both carry fire moves. To switch out against one and not the other would be a result of ignorance of the user using the Steel in question. Skarmory is 2hko by both dragons Fire Blasts (assuming spec.def) and once again if it does not want to be KOed by Salamence it would switch out, but Dragonite can do exactly the same as Salamence and thus Skarmory would switch out again.


I believe this should be sufficient 'proof' for you that Dragonite can force out the same physical threats Salamence forces out by use of intimidate.

EDIT:
@Objection - I'm not bothering with you anymore as you are just going round in circles whilst STILL NOT JUSTIFYING WHY SALAMENCE IS UBER, and to respond to your unjustified 'conlusion', Dragonite is relevant because I put it to you that Dragonite is so similar to Salamence that one cannot be banned without the other following it. THAT is why Dragonite discussion is relevant

 

[Longfellow]

When arguing whether Salamence's extra speed matters, let's not forget any Pokémon who have 100+ base speed and normally run enough to outrace Mence. In the Suspect metagame they can run bulkier spreads and still beat Dragonite.

Not that Dragonite is at all relevant.

 

[SushiOnToast]

When arguing whether Salamence's extra speed matters, let's not forget any Pokémon who have 100+ base speed and normally run enough to outrace Mence. In the Suspect metagame they can run bulkier spreads and still beat Dragonite.

Not that Dragonite is at all relevant.

Dragonite too can run a bulkier spread and set up on these mons that you havn't named.

See edit on above post for why Dragonite is relevant.

 

[Longfellow]

Did I say there were any? I'm just reminding you that, as far as Speed is concerned, you have to consider such Pokémon, IF they exist.

Also worth mentioning is that any bulky Mence set that sacrifices speed, versus any bulky DNite set that also sacrifices speed, bring in a whole new group of Pokémon that outspeed DNite but not Mence. Whether any of those Pokémon matters I can't say, but it's shortsighted to consider only those who fall between 80 and 100.

If we can't ban Salamence without banning Dragonite, so be it. Does Salamence care?

 

[Ice-eyes]

Take Sushi's Lucario example - what if it CCs on your switch? Salamence is faster and forces it out, Dragonite is slower and is 2HKOd with Rocks. Now Lucario will sweep more easily later on.

The other reason why Salamence is harder to deal with than Dragonite is relevant to the speed at +1. One of the main arguments for Mence being Uber is that potential revengers like Flygon and Jirachi can only tie with it, and so you have a 50% chance of not stopping its sweep. The only things that reliably revenge Mence are Scarf Azelf, Gengar and Starmie, all of which are weak to Pursuit. Dragonite is outsped by both ScarfGon and ScarfRachi, as well as Rotom-H, Zapdos, Lucario etc.

 

[CuddyBuddy]

Get ready for Gyarados to kick the living poop out of teams now that Latias is out of the picture. If Latias has been OU since the beginning, why are they just now changing it to uber? People have adjusted to it and there was nothing wrong with it being OU.

 

[3v3rnoob]

It might not have been that bad being in OU, but now that it's an uber, the game is so much better. It happened. Get over it. Not much else you can do.

 

[StealthX]

If mence is so "uber" it would have been banned a while ago; Salamence has been around for 8 years for crying out loud!

 

[Jaxx]

If mence is so "uber" it would have been banned a while ago; Salamence has been around for 8 years for crying out loud!

He got some new toys in this Gen. Plus everyone was focused on Garchomp and Latias, Mence feel under the radar.