Have you run a damage calc on that because I think it would be extremely close due to SE damage if the Zong had Heatproof it would be a different story
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The First Smogon Council - Salamence
- Thread starter Aeolus
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Have you run a damage calc on that because I think it would be extremely close due to SE damage if the Zong had Heatproof it would be a different story
What the hell are you talking about? Sacing a second Pokemon to Salamence? That really fixes things.
^ If MixMence gets rid of one wall, it's ahead. It's juts a bonus that it still has enough HP to come in later to kill something else.
v I didn't do the calcs before I made that post. I already edited it. Jesus.
Bronzong doesn't 1hko Salamence with Gyro Ball, either, unless it's taken two Life Orb recoils and SR.
If you were talking about Bronzong, how is it KOd by Draco Meteor+ Fire Blast? You od know Draco Meteor lowers your Special Attack by 2 stages so it doesn't Ko at all. Although it is crippled for sure taking around 75% from both.
edit: Well sorry that i was making this post before you edited your post so I couldn't have known.
Libelldra's ownpurpose calculator went down, but I calculated how much Draco Meteor would do to a Bronzong, and it does not 2HKO. Since Draco Meteor decreases Mence's SpA by 2 stages I know that Fire Blast cannot OHKO Zong.
This is assuming Zong switches into Mence's DC and not Mence's Fire Blast.
Edit: Also regarding to Zong not being able to OHKO Mence with Gyro Ball, Gyro Ball does have 150 Base power (without STAB) correct? Salamence gets OHKOed after Life Orb and SR damage from Gyro Ball.
If Mence switches out of Zong after it switches into a DC, Zong still has plenty of health to space, which means it has a chance of crippling whatever switches into Zong.
Even if your weak Pokemon dies and you can get in Starmie, Gengar, or whatever, I can come right back in on something else and do it again. Bet your fast sweeper won't want to switch in then.
The only reason you guys are bringing up this "sac a weak Pokemon" crap is because you know how dangerous Salamence is and it's probably going to get a kill if you try to counter it the way you do with other OUs. That doesn't make it balanced in the slightest. The fact that you even have to resort to these ultra-specific scenarios and circular logic proves that there's obviously a problem with Salamence you can't boast for any other OU. If anything, you're just strengthening the argument that Salamence is overpowered and doesn't even belong in the tier.
The only reason you guys are bringing up this "sac a weak Pokemon" crap is because you know how dangerous Salamence is and it's probably going to get a kill if you try to counter it the way you do with other OUs. That doesn't make it balanced in the slightest. The fact that you even have to resort to these ultra-specific scenarios and circular logic proves that there's obviously a problem with Salamence you can't boast for any other OU. If anything, you're just strengthening the argument that Salamence is overpowered and doesn't even belong in the tier.
I understand that just because a pokemon might not have a counter doesn't make it uber, but I make the argument that if a pokemon does not have a counter, it makes it closer to uber than farther away. These two pokemon in particular are very situational counters, and I personally would like to use both as they are neat pokemon.
If I were forced to use them on every team to counter or check Salamence, however, there would be no argument as to whether Salamence was uber or not.
Since Salamence is not being countered by Regirock and choice scarf Cresselia every game, that is not a major concern as to whether it is uber, as everyone is not using these counters and prefers to use something else to "check" Salamence instead. That leans Salamence more towards OU, right?
I am not convinced that Salamence is uber or not yet, but I will give it due credit for what it does and does not do. It has some counters in very specific situations. That sounds more uber than not given what else it can do. Correct? Having few counters to your strategy makes your strategy stronger, and closer to uber.
LOL i didnt even say anything about how dangerous mence was i was just proposing a solution if mence is on the field and you want to get your check in safely jeez.
You have it backwards; using bad Pokemon to counter Salamence makes it Uber because it means the standard metagame can't handle it and you have to resort to mostly impractical methods just to beat it. If we banned Latias because hardly any OUs could handle it, why should we let Salamece off the hook if none of them can reliably beat it?
Hmm does Garchomp ring a bell? The thing that had no counters in OU was that moved to ubers? Its movepool is actually worse than mence as mence can hit EFFECTIVELY from the Special side and theyre stats were almost the same. Garchomp (A magic 102 Base Speed though).
And before people go on about 'YEH BUT WE HAD WEAVILE' it was a check not a counter. Almost the same thing applies to mence.
Which allows your said pokemon to set-up. For example, Gengar could set up a substitute and it would end up being a pain to take out. If Scizor switches into Mence hoping for a revenge kill, Scizor could instead set up a SD + Bullet Punch combo that becomes more than a problem.
Mence doesn't have a lot of counters, but he's more prone to revenge-killers and switches as much as any sweeper.
Edit: Why does a pokemon need a solid, 100% counter? For example, MixNite and Lucario don't have a 100% counter for every set, but they have a shitload of checks that stop them from massacring a team. Salamence is the same except that he has more attack and speed to work from.
And if I have it, I can bring in my counter to said Pokemon and force them right back out, which is far easier to do because they're not Salamence.
Right, but the entire issue is getting them in without dying. You have to predict like a god the entire match to keep Salamence from killing anything, and even if it somehow doesn't, at team full of < 30% Pokemon is largely ineffective and prone to a sweep. I don't understand how that shit is not Uber.
Basically we agree salamence in this current metagame is broken until some genius finds a moveset to counter it effectively (most variants) which isnt really gonna happen. So...
Bye Mence
LOL it's not a revenge killer .... its a check? And names... hmm QUOTE 'What the hell are you talking about? Sacing a second Pokemon to Salamence? That really fixes things.' lol sorry if the implication wasn't to make me look stupid what was it?
Bye Mence
LOL it's not a revenge killer .... its a check? And names... hmm QUOTE 'What the hell are you talking about? Sacing a second Pokemon to Salamence? That really fixes things.' lol sorry if the implication wasn't to make me look stupid what was it?
Sleep Talk Cresselia is able to take anything DD Mence and MixMence throw at it, and OHKO with Ice Beam. I'm also hearing talk of a Choice Scarf Suicune with some bulk added to it. The Suicune sounds highly situational, however, and I'm not exactly sure what it would be capable of doing otherwise.
But yeah, Sleep Talk Cresselia is a 100% counter to Mence... Of course, every and any Mence user knows better than to keep Mence in on Cresselia, and pull out the #1 or #2 most used in the current OU, Scizor or Tyranitar.
No need to get your panties in a bunch, HoChiMinArushiDragon. This thread isn't just about MixMence, it's about Salamence as a pokemon being uber. The only viable argument that's been presented is "Salamence is uber because you have to predict what set he's using," yet it appears that everyone is forgetting the entirety of the metagame is about out-predicting your opponent. No one Salamence set is overly destructive; it appears that everyone is simply finding it too mentally straining to put their wits against their opponent's.
The process is simple, but flawed. If enough people just don't like Salamence that can vote, it's gone. I believe their justification would be the support role for Salamence, but I agree with you that Salamence can be played around.
The vast majority of players, however, can't do this because they don't have the skill or experience or the right pokemon. Enough so, that I believe in the competitive community, Salamence will be voted uber.
I would like to have more discussion about what makes Salamence strong and weak, however, because I would like everyone to be on the same page.
We should have a post with a common consensus of what Salamence is and does, and what works against it and neuters it effectively so we can all agree on the basics.
The major issue with Salamence, I believe, is that you don't have to predict to know it's running Fire Blast, Earthquake and Outrage, and for those moves alone in that combination with the speed and power behind them that Salamence has, it is worthwile to play without it to see how uber/centralizing/broken/supportive/awesome it is (which is taking place right now, of course, or how else could I be posting in this tread? And why wouldn't I read it all to know what's going on.. Some people..).
I can send Cresselia or Bronzong in while Mence DDs and scare it away. The next time it comes in, it takes another 25% damage. Infernape could potentially set up using SD or NP and sweep your entire team because, well, not every team is going to be carrying a Tentacruel.
Can you guys, like, make some real points and actually address the points pro-Uber supporters have been making thus far rather than coming into the thread and spouting your ignorant opinions? You're not helping anything by saying "Salamece is obviously not Uber and you guys are too dumb to beat it", you're just wasting the time of people who're reading this and came for a well-informed, legitimate discussion on Salamence.
Once again, it's not "predict what set it's using", it's "predict absolutely everything it does 100% to keep it from destroying your team because it's decently fast, very powerful, has perfect coverage, and is quite capable of beating all of its checks/counters. If you can't address or counter any of the arguments the other side has made thus far, you have absolutely no right to claim whose arguments are viable or not.
Way too late to pull that neutral crap. You just stated quite clearly that you don't think Salamence is broken, insulted everyone who disagrees, and aren't bothering to explain why.
We've been discussing for the entire thread why we think Salamence is/isn't broken, so there's no point in doubling back for the nth time to explain the principle ideas behind the discussion. If you've been playing this game or reading this thread, you already know, and you've already outlined some ideas as to why. Now connect the dots: what is your stance and how can you back it up?
My personal opinion conflicts with the entire process. I don't like how the competitive community strays so far from the official rulesets outlined by Nintendo in their various tournaments. I play the game with the rules on here because this is really the only place I can go to better myself.
That being said, my official stance on whether Salamence is uber or not is that I want to test it being gone and see what happens, see what people think. Once we have a handle on that, I would like to make a decision based on the proper evidence. Right now, without playing in the suspect ladder enough, I don't think anyone can make the call whether it is uber or not.
I can stop playing both sides of the fence, but I will always tend to want to respond to comments that I think are based on incorrect assumptions or facts.
I would like to, if the thread continues on, discuss how and why and what makes Salamence a threat, and the various side arguments like Dragonite ______ or special counters seemed very flawed. Dragonite is not Salamence. Counters aren't the only thing that make Salamence a suspect. Let's get our info together.
If we are going to change the fundamentals of the game, it better be for a good reason.
That being said, my official stance on whether Salamence is uber or not is that I want to test it being gone and see what happens, see what people think. Once we have a handle on that, I would like to make a decision based on the proper evidence. Right now, without playing in the suspect ladder enough, I don't think anyone can make the call whether it is uber or not.
I can stop playing both sides of the fence, but I will always tend to want to respond to comments that I think are based on incorrect assumptions or facts.
I would like to, if the thread continues on, discuss how and why and what makes Salamence a threat, and the various side arguments like Dragonite ______ or special counters seemed very flawed. Dragonite is not Salamence. Counters aren't the only thing that make Salamence a suspect. Let's get our info together.
If we are going to change the fundamentals of the game, it better be for a good reason.
Exactly this point. Something that should be Uber is mostly about how said mon can set-up and how much it could cover in the standard metagame. Latias had plenty of counters ranging from T-tar to Blissey, but the majority of the people thought that Latias was broken due to her type coverage. It's odd that Salamence should be banned to ubers solely on the fact that it lacks fundamental counters.
You're like a broken record. This is all absolute bullshit and has been addressed several times. The only reason you're clinging to this nonsense is because you've so far proven incapable of coming up with anything else.
You don't have to resort to any "ultra-specific scenarios" to envisage a game where Salamence doesn't get a kill. You seem to like thinking that Salamence can use every one of his moves on a single turn and always kill (or 2HKO) the switch-in, but that's just nonsense you're making up to bolster your otherwise nonexistent argument. Whichever attack the Salamence chooses - and he can only choose one! - it's just as likely that the switch-in threatens Salamence as it is that Salamence threatens the switch-in.
Scarfers and Ice Sharders switching in on the Dragon Dance is not an "ultra-specific scenario". A bulky Flying type or Levitator switching in on Earthquake is not an "ultra-specific scenario". Scizor switching in on an Outrage is not an "ultra-specific scenario". Starmie switching in on Fire Blast/Flamethrower is not an "ultra-specific scenario". This stuff is common. And if he stuffs it up the first time, getting back in is no waltz in the park; If Stealth Rock is up (protip: It probably is!), then you have to sacrifice something unless you're sure that your 40% Salamence (2 SR and one LO recoil, even less if Sandstorm is up) isn't going to just keel over and die from the attack it has to take on the switch-in.
I'm not going to argue that Salamence can't threaten all of his switch-ins, because quite obviously, he can. What you seem absolutely unable to accept, however, is that Salamence has to pick his attack before he knows what's switching in, and therefore won't always get it right. Sure, if he uses Draco Meteor, then a Mamoswine switch-in dies. But if he uses Earthquake, Dragon Dance, or even Outrage on a bulkier Swine, then he's either dead or crippled, either of which being good enough to strip him of his not-so-guaranteed kill per game.
It's easy to sit there theorymonning how Salamence can kill everything that might switch in. It's also devoid of any intellectual reasoning. It's much more difficult to think about how Salamence actually works in match conditions, the limitations placed on him by incomplete knowledge, and the very real situations where Salamence himself is the one who must "predict like a god" or die. Until you start actually thinking, rather than just parroting damage calcs and other bits of Salamence trivia that lack any context, then your contributions to this thread are going to remain as empty and unconvincing as they have been for the past 33 pages.
Draco Meteor as the first attack, perhaps?
That would be for less bright players. Just Draco Meteor and switch as necessary. Roost on Mence, or a Wish Passer, or a Rapid Spinner would let Mence do that even more. Not that Mence needs the help.
Again, the problem is Draco Meteor. It is always better than Fire Blast, barring you knowing Fire Resists are gone, and Fire weaks being present (say, a Steel Type). So, Draco Meteor is what we need to prepare for (well, OK, Scizor changes it a bit. But Fire Blast still hurst most things. And ScarfTar with Pursuit or something like that switches in on the Starmie. Check down.
I've seen Mence put holes in teams. Holes that are mostly irreparable. Also, Mence doesn't need too much prediction. Scizor? Draco Meteor and switch. Stealth Rock will wear down Scizor, and Mence can Roost off the damage.
No, I'm fairly sure that Draco Meteor (or Fire Blast if you're reasonably sure of what will happen) will take down a lot of stuff to the point where they can be finished. So, should I switch to Scizor, predicting DM or DD? Or, should I switch to ScarfTran predicting a Fire Blast? Or something like that. Yeah, basically, Mence doesn't need as much prediction as the guy facing Mence. From my experiences on the ladder.
I've been looking around and found a reasonable check (note the word) to Salamence: Milotic. Yes, I know, it's 2HKO'd by the thing, but still, she pretty much forces Salamence to use Outrage, from which then you can exploit. Draco Meteor does ~60% to 252 HP/252 Def/4 SpD Bold Milotic, and Outrage does ~50%. So pretty much, the only way Mence is going to 2HKO you is to use Outrage (Or it dies), so you can go to your Scizor or whatever. Unlike other bulky Waters who gets crippled by DM, Milotic has reliable recovery (Yes, I know Vaporeon can Wish, but when it's at about 30%, Wish loses its reliability).
yeah okay if you're going to just pretend that salamence always knows exactly what's switching in, and that he can always afford to use Draco Meteor rather than going straight for the kill even against things that will kill/threaten him if they don't switch out, and that even if he doesn't know what's switching in he'll pick the right attack anyway, and that "if you know exactly what your opponent has left then you can just use DM" is a good argument for anything, and that "if you've got a Spinner and Salamence has Roost or you've got a Wisher then he's dangerous" is a good argument for anything, and that Draco Meteor never misses, then yes Salamence is Uber.
and so is damn near everything else.
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