It doesn't need to be slower than Togekiss either. While the goal of this project is to increase Togekiss's usage via hooking it up with a partner, it doesn't necessary means that we have to make CAP11 the supporters and/or tank of this duo. CAP11 could the sweeper of this team, with Togekiss spreading it's supportive powers to it via Thunder Wave, Wish, or special attack boost via Nasty Plot. Being slower than Kiss might not be the best thing for CAP11.
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CAP 11 CAP 11 - Main Typing Discussion
- Thread starter Fuzznip
- Start date
- Status
My votes are a primary typing of either: Steel Rock or Posion.
Once again all three attract ground attacks which allow togekiss to switch in.
They also can take hits that togekiss are weak to (rock, ice, electric)
Ok this may seem a bit absurd, but I am suggesting a steel/rock type. Because of its 4x weaknesses to ground and fighting, Kiss can switch in a most likely setup or KO there poke.
An alternate typing I suggest is mono steel type, because once again resists kiss's weakness and vice versa, besides there is nothing immune to steel type attacks.
Once again all three attract ground attacks which allow togekiss to switch in.
They also can take hits that togekiss are weak to (rock, ice, electric)
Ok this may seem a bit absurd, but I am suggesting a steel/rock type. Because of its 4x weaknesses to ground and fighting, Kiss can switch in a most likely setup or KO there poke.
An alternate typing I suggest is mono steel type, because once again resists kiss's weakness and vice versa, besides there is nothing immune to steel type attacks.
Guys, stop suggesting secondary typings. I don't want to see any "Ground/Ice seems cool", "Omg Steel/Fire has excellent resistances", "Go with Electric/Fighting it's the best" statements. Keep that stuff out of this thread. The title is called "Main Typing Discussion" for a reason, so keep it that way. If I continue to see this, I will delete your post and I will infract you. Don't do it.
Now that that's out of the way, I'll mention some of my favourite types so far. I believe that Electric, Ground, and Psychic are exciting primary typings for Togekiss's Perfect Mate. All three of these types have very good synergy with Togekiss and are also offensive-minded types (You can say that Psychic has a bit more defensive bias to it, but it's still potent offensively), and considering how the direction I want is offensive-minded, they are perfect. Furthermore, they provide the few defensive/supportive synergies that I also requested. I don't need to explain why I like these types because I would just be restating what's already been said.
Also, I want to point out that some of you guys should think outside the box with the types here. "Steel resists Rock and Ice and is immune to Toxic, choose it!" is an example of what I'm talking about. So what if Steel resists those types? We should be looking for types that can be used offensively, have reasonable type synergy with Togekiss, are versatile with other type pairings, defeat certain Pokemon Togekiss hates, lures in certain Pokemon Togekiss loves, etc. Look at the bigger picture here.
I'll post again tomorrow with more detailed explanations of what I like and what I don't.
Now that that's out of the way, I'll mention some of my favourite types so far. I believe that Electric, Ground, and Psychic are exciting primary typings for Togekiss's Perfect Mate. All three of these types have very good synergy with Togekiss and are also offensive-minded types (You can say that Psychic has a bit more defensive bias to it, but it's still potent offensively), and considering how the direction I want is offensive-minded, they are perfect. Furthermore, they provide the few defensive/supportive synergies that I also requested. I don't need to explain why I like these types because I would just be restating what's already been said.
Also, I want to point out that some of you guys should think outside the box with the types here. "Steel resists Rock and Ice and is immune to Toxic, choose it!" is an example of what I'm talking about. So what if Steel resists those types? We should be looking for types that can be used offensively, have reasonable type synergy with Togekiss, are versatile with other type pairings, defeat certain Pokemon Togekiss hates, lures in certain Pokemon Togekiss loves, etc. Look at the bigger picture here.
I'll post again tomorrow with more detailed explanations of what I like and what I don't.
I am against Steel because it benefits every other OU Flying type more than Togekiss. Steel walls Togekiss's STABs and most people who are suggesting Steel are also suggesting we throw in a secondary typing to make CAP11 neutral to Fighting which is the type Togekiss uses to hit Steels. It is within the realm of possibility that choosing Steel would create a Togekiss counter.
Ground has the problem of not luring in Ground type attacks. I think this is the biggest argument against Ground since Ice isn't Kiss's biggest weakness. Since Ground doesn't resist itself we could make CAP11 weak to ground with a secondary typing, I'm not sure this is the best route. *snipped in light of Fuzznip's most recent post*
Anyways, I'll end my anti-Steel, anti-Ground rant and move on to which type I support. I support Rock because I feel it can be molded to pair well with Togekiss without inadvertently helping other Flying types more. I think it will be harder to work with than the overpowered Ground and Steel but I think it will result in a better final product. To sum it up: it lures in Ground and Grass attacks, not weak to Ice or Electric, Sandstorm boost, good offensive coverage with 'Kiss.
Also the non-Rock types that pair well with 'Kiss are all resisted by Rotom. Steel, Ground, Fighting, Electric, and Poison. And Psychic is weak to Rotom's Shadowball and is pursuit bait.
Ground has the problem of not luring in Ground type attacks. I think this is the biggest argument against Ground since Ice isn't Kiss's biggest weakness. Since Ground doesn't resist itself we could make CAP11 weak to ground with a secondary typing, I'm not sure this is the best route. *snipped in light of Fuzznip's most recent post*
Anyways, I'll end my anti-Steel, anti-Ground rant and move on to which type I support. I support Rock because I feel it can be molded to pair well with Togekiss without inadvertently helping other Flying types more. I think it will be harder to work with than the overpowered Ground and Steel but I think it will result in a better final product. To sum it up: it lures in Ground and Grass attacks, not weak to Ice or Electric, Sandstorm boost, good offensive coverage with 'Kiss.
Also the non-Rock types that pair well with 'Kiss are all resisted by Rotom. Steel, Ground, Fighting, Electric, and Poison. And Psychic is weak to Rotom's Shadowball and is pursuit bait.
Okay here goes.
Fighting I don't particularly like. You guys are giving too little weighting to the duo's power to switch around. Fighting covers Tog's weaknesses okay (although compounding the Zapdos weakness).
I want to reiterate what I envisioned in the Concept thread, which in my opinion didn't last long enough and needed some kind of conclusion.
Something that makes a lot of sense in terms of an offensive duo is Baton Pass. This is one of Togekiss' greatest offensive abilities - to BP Nasty Plot. If the give the CAP Baton Pass as well, and possibly some way to increase its speed or paralyse, we could have an effective partnership based on these couple of boosts which just goes back and forth between them as needed.
This gives a definite offensive direction, and there's a reason why I'm putting this in the typing discussion.
For anything like this to work, the CAP simply must FORCE the opponent to use a move Togekiss can come in on. The CAP should be fast and destructive enough that if the enemy doesn't use X move (thus allowing Togekiss to come in) the CAP threatens to KO it.
Psychic is the best choice as long as we can overcome two problems. The first is the Rotom formes. The CAP should be fast enough and powerful enough to KO these with a SE attack.
The second problem is Pursuit. I agree that we can't let the CAP be KO'd with Pursuit so easily, and I don't think the solution is just to give it Aura Sphere and Flamethrower to take down the two most common users.
Baton Pass helps here, particularly since the main choice variants of TTar and Scizor will then be beaten or set up on by Togekiss. However, both carry significantly powerful attacks to pose a huge risk to Tog, particularly Tyranitar.
Electric also makes a great deal of sense, drawing Ground moves and resisting the electric moves aimed at Togekiss. Going back to my idea of a Baton Pass duo, something like Motor Drive (or similar - since this would probably help Gyarados at least as much) would not only eliminate the risk of TWave's and Thunderbolts, but it could also pass speed back to Togekiss.
However, Tyranitar is still a major threat. \
The CAP needs some way to deal with or at least match three pokemon: TTar, Zapdos and Rotom-A
Fighting I don't particularly like. You guys are giving too little weighting to the duo's power to switch around. Fighting covers Tog's weaknesses okay (although compounding the Zapdos weakness).
I want to reiterate what I envisioned in the Concept thread, which in my opinion didn't last long enough and needed some kind of conclusion.
Something that makes a lot of sense in terms of an offensive duo is Baton Pass. This is one of Togekiss' greatest offensive abilities - to BP Nasty Plot. If the give the CAP Baton Pass as well, and possibly some way to increase its speed or paralyse, we could have an effective partnership based on these couple of boosts which just goes back and forth between them as needed.
This gives a definite offensive direction, and there's a reason why I'm putting this in the typing discussion.
For anything like this to work, the CAP simply must FORCE the opponent to use a move Togekiss can come in on. The CAP should be fast and destructive enough that if the enemy doesn't use X move (thus allowing Togekiss to come in) the CAP threatens to KO it.
Psychic is the best choice as long as we can overcome two problems. The first is the Rotom formes. The CAP should be fast enough and powerful enough to KO these with a SE attack.
The second problem is Pursuit. I agree that we can't let the CAP be KO'd with Pursuit so easily, and I don't think the solution is just to give it Aura Sphere and Flamethrower to take down the two most common users.
Baton Pass helps here, particularly since the main choice variants of TTar and Scizor will then be beaten or set up on by Togekiss. However, both carry significantly powerful attacks to pose a huge risk to Tog, particularly Tyranitar.
Electric also makes a great deal of sense, drawing Ground moves and resisting the electric moves aimed at Togekiss. Going back to my idea of a Baton Pass duo, something like Motor Drive (or similar - since this would probably help Gyarados at least as much) would not only eliminate the risk of TWave's and Thunderbolts, but it could also pass speed back to Togekiss.
However, Tyranitar is still a major threat. \
The CAP needs some way to deal with or at least match three pokemon: TTar, Zapdos and Rotom-A
Gonna go ahead and side with Psychic.
Looking at Psychic what people above have said is so true, it lures out a decent amount of Togekiss counters. Now here's where things can go either way. If it's an offensive Psychic type then with the right move pool in can nail the countering pokemon seeing as they do have huge weaknesses. If we make it defensive then it can resist them simply by being physically defensive as the aforementioned pokemon are for the most part physical attackers. So should we go either way as to allow for us to resist their moves then counterattack or run offensively for the counterattack and hit first be it through speed or whatnot, it's possible to still counter them even if the type is pursuit weak.
Add in the fact that Togekiss resists the Ghost type that plagues the type and it has some good synergy. However the one ghost that hurts Togekiss, Rotom-A, should need to be countered with the new pokemon somehow because Psychic leaves the pair weak to a pokemon who is currently in the Top 10 for usage, which is something that would definately need fixing. So that leaves me looking at another type to counter Rotom-A, but I'll save that for the secondary typing discussion.
So I believe a Psychic could run well as a partner with Togekiss. Here is something that might be semi interesting. A 252/0 Bold Cresselia takes 41% - 48.6% from a Scarfed Shadow Ball from Rotom-A with 252 SpA EVs. I chose Cresselia due to it being a defensive Psychic type, but that just shows that should the pokemon be a defensive Psychic type, that there is room to take a Rotom-A Shadow Ball and possibly hit back, however this is just Theorymon.
Looking at Psychic what people above have said is so true, it lures out a decent amount of Togekiss counters. Now here's where things can go either way. If it's an offensive Psychic type then with the right move pool in can nail the countering pokemon seeing as they do have huge weaknesses. If we make it defensive then it can resist them simply by being physically defensive as the aforementioned pokemon are for the most part physical attackers. So should we go either way as to allow for us to resist their moves then counterattack or run offensively for the counterattack and hit first be it through speed or whatnot, it's possible to still counter them even if the type is pursuit weak.
Add in the fact that Togekiss resists the Ghost type that plagues the type and it has some good synergy. However the one ghost that hurts Togekiss, Rotom-A, should need to be countered with the new pokemon somehow because Psychic leaves the pair weak to a pokemon who is currently in the Top 10 for usage, which is something that would definately need fixing. So that leaves me looking at another type to counter Rotom-A, but I'll save that for the secondary typing discussion.
So I believe a Psychic could run well as a partner with Togekiss. Here is something that might be semi interesting. A 252/0 Bold Cresselia takes 41% - 48.6% from a Scarfed Shadow Ball from Rotom-A with 252 SpA EVs. I chose Cresselia due to it being a defensive Psychic type, but that just shows that should the pokemon be a defensive Psychic type, that there is room to take a Rotom-A Shadow Ball and possibly hit back, however this is just Theorymon.
Ah, but here we come back to the original idea. If it is faster, that means we have a Gyarados or faster then Gyarados pseudo-tank, as it will most likely be very defensive, as to absorb the mutual weaknesses between it and Togekiss. If we have something that is bulky and fast, with good resistances, it will wreck OU just as much as if we have a fast Electivire, who would function as a mega sweeper.
This is why we can't just slap "LET'S MAKE IT EPICALLY POWERFUL ON EVERYTHING" on every CAP.
I realize this is slightly off topic, but the point needed to be made.
I support Psychic as a potential type, for reasons others have outlined. Luring out dangers like Scizor and Tyranitar and being able to kill them (given a decent movepool) will be able to help Togekiss immensely. It also lures Ghost and Bug-types which Togekiss plows through.
I also support Electric, for similar reasons - it lures Ground-type moves which Togekiss is immune to, and it would almost definitely get paralysis moves, which would assist Togekiss greatly.I don't think a Psychic/Electric type will work, but I guess we'll wait and see.
I also support Electric, for similar reasons - it lures Ground-type moves which Togekiss is immune to, and it would almost definitely get paralysis moves, which would assist Togekiss greatly.I don't think a Psychic/Electric type will work, but I guess we'll wait and see.
I was effectively sold for Ground before reading into it, but afterwords Psychic seemed like a more potent match-up for Togekiss, so long as we get SOME resistances in with secondary typing. I still feel Ground is a good option, but the ice weakness is what kills it. For people suggesting Rock, I understand some of the merits, but the thing that really kills it for me is the fighting weakness. Its crucial that CaP 11 resists Fighting, I've used Togekiss and honestly fighting is more of a weakness than ice is. Togekiss CAN NOT switch into fighting moves, Machamp, Lucario, even Heracross just destroy it with their STAB moves, so Rock I find is not the best fit possible.
The problem is that a Pyschic-typed CAP 11, unless you give CAP 11 base 92 speed or higher (something which cannot be taken lightly), will be crushed by a ScarfTar Pursuit. An Electric-typed CAP 11 would make both weak to Jolteon/Electivire.
While many see Zapdos as a threat to this combination, I feel that it is not the worst thing in the world for a pokemon used less than 8% of the time last month to be a counter. Zapdos is also fairly easily beaten by other things like Blissey, Snorlax, Tyranitar, Swampert should Zapdos be running HP Ice, or Gliscor or Flygon should Zapdos be running HP Grass.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Pursuit a 40 BP move when you Baton Pass out of it, instead of an 80 base? If CAP11 goes as the consensus seems to be, then it'll be physically defensive, probably to take an unboosted Pursuit off a scarfer.
Never mind then. This is correct. Pursuit's "special power" does not activate and it is thus only 40 BP, hardly something a defensive CAP 11 would fear.
However, I still oppose Psychic because of both CAP 11's and Togekiss' weakness to Rotom forms. Psychic as a first type very much limits what the second type can be with Heracross Megahorn, Scizor Bug Bite, and Tyranitar Crunch to worry about. Psychic/Fighting and Psychic/Steel are the only two viable combinations in my mind... and both have been done several times already.
Plus wasn't someone's idea to make CAP 11 help solve Togekiss' "4 move slot syndrome"? Expending one move slot to avoid PursuitTrappers seems counter-intuitive.
That's actually a great point and puts into words what I was thinking as I read through this thread. To be a good partner to togekiss, it doesn't necessarily have to let togekiss sweep. It can simply take support from togekiss and sweep, or meld with togekiss to form a defensive core. With that in mind, I suggest Fighting as it resists rock type moves aimed at togekiss and is great offensive STAB, allowing togekiss' partner to rampage through teams or simply stop Rock/Steel types that ruin togekiss' murderous sweep. It doesn't have the resistance to Close Combat, but that can be fixed with a secondary typing. Overall, Fighting is a great typing as a partner to togekiss and allows it to run through with at least neutral attacks to togekiss' common counters, while benefitting from togekiss' coverage with STAB Air Slash.
Psychic:
+ Not covered by CAP before
+ Not SR weak
+ Draws Ghost attacks
- Draws Persuiters
- Bad STAB in OU due to the rampart Steels
- Can't do much on the physical side of things, with only choices of Psycho Cut and Zen Headbutt for physical Psychic moves, and therefor, might find beating the blob and Tyranitar difficult. Especially as the latter is immune to it's STAB.
- Dosen't take any of Togekiss' weaknesses too well
Electric:
+ Draws Ground Type attacks, which Togekiss is immune to
+ Not SR Weak
+ Resists Electric
+ Good STAB
- Thundnerpunch and Volt Tackle are not really good options for taking down Blissey and T-Tar, especially as the latter would require some Krillowatt-Draco Meteor Esquire thing to get it on the moveset
- Low damage, or recoil... nether is good. [I presume we intend to go physical, to handle Blissey and T-Tar]
Steel:
+ Resists Rock and Ice
+ Draws Ground-type attacks
+ STAB is actually decent for the intended goal. Super Effective on Tyranitar, and most users of STAB Ice/Rock type moves dislike Steel-type moves
+ Most Steels get Earthquake as a given, unless they float like Magneton, this will handle Electrics not named Zapdos.
+ Sr Resist, Toxic Spikes Immune, Persuit Resist
+ Physically-based type when it coes to moves.
+ Meteor Mash, should it get it, is good for dealing with Pink Blobs who try and stall you, even if this CAP dosen't get sweeper stats.
- Does nothing for the Electric weakness
- Quakeslide can handle both Togekiss and Steels.
- Bad STAB for doing much else in OU, like taking down Steels that Togekiss dislikes.
Ghost:
+ Draws Ghost-type attacks
- Doesn't do aything for Togekiss' weaknesses
- STAB is useless agaist Blissey, and almost as bad against Tyranitar
- Persuit Bait
- Gengar and Rotom-A use Thunderbolt
Water:
+ Draws Grass-type attacks, which Togekiss Resists
+ Resists Ice. Hits Rock-types Super Effectivly
+ Decent moves on both sides, Waterfall and Surf.
- Draws Electric-type attacks, unless we're re-making Swampert.
- Most moves are Specially-based
- Other bulky Waters tend to carry Ice Beam, so Togekiss can't switch in on those.
- Only draws a resistance, not an immunity, and it's not the world's most common or popular type.
Now, I might get burned at the stake for suggesting this, but here goes: I suggest the Steel type for Togekiss' partner. It covers the most weaknesses, can handle Tyranitar and Blissey, and draws the most common attack in the game to it, which Togekiss can switch in on. Bad STAB? Well, look at Metagross, he still Meteor Mashes away. My veiw on things is that this pokemon should be a supporter anyway, not a sweeper in it's own right, or Togekiss will become IT'S perfect partner, helping CAP11 to sweep, which is the reverse of the concept. So we should not make arguments based on 'Electric STAB > Psychic STAB'
+ Not covered by CAP before
+ Not SR weak
+ Draws Ghost attacks
- Draws Persuiters
- Bad STAB in OU due to the rampart Steels
- Can't do much on the physical side of things, with only choices of Psycho Cut and Zen Headbutt for physical Psychic moves, and therefor, might find beating the blob and Tyranitar difficult. Especially as the latter is immune to it's STAB.
- Dosen't take any of Togekiss' weaknesses too well
Electric:
+ Draws Ground Type attacks, which Togekiss is immune to
+ Not SR Weak
+ Resists Electric
+ Good STAB
- Thundnerpunch and Volt Tackle are not really good options for taking down Blissey and T-Tar, especially as the latter would require some Krillowatt-Draco Meteor Esquire thing to get it on the moveset
- Low damage, or recoil... nether is good. [I presume we intend to go physical, to handle Blissey and T-Tar]
Steel:
+ Resists Rock and Ice
+ Draws Ground-type attacks
+ STAB is actually decent for the intended goal. Super Effective on Tyranitar, and most users of STAB Ice/Rock type moves dislike Steel-type moves
+ Most Steels get Earthquake as a given, unless they float like Magneton, this will handle Electrics not named Zapdos.
+ Sr Resist, Toxic Spikes Immune, Persuit Resist
+ Physically-based type when it coes to moves.
+ Meteor Mash, should it get it, is good for dealing with Pink Blobs who try and stall you, even if this CAP dosen't get sweeper stats.
- Does nothing for the Electric weakness
- Quakeslide can handle both Togekiss and Steels.
- Bad STAB for doing much else in OU, like taking down Steels that Togekiss dislikes.
Ghost:
+ Draws Ghost-type attacks
- Doesn't do aything for Togekiss' weaknesses
- STAB is useless agaist Blissey, and almost as bad against Tyranitar
- Persuit Bait
- Gengar and Rotom-A use Thunderbolt
Water:
+ Draws Grass-type attacks, which Togekiss Resists
+ Resists Ice. Hits Rock-types Super Effectivly
+ Decent moves on both sides, Waterfall and Surf.
- Draws Electric-type attacks, unless we're re-making Swampert.
- Most moves are Specially-based
- Other bulky Waters tend to carry Ice Beam, so Togekiss can't switch in on those.
- Only draws a resistance, not an immunity, and it's not the world's most common or popular type.
Now, I might get burned at the stake for suggesting this, but here goes: I suggest the Steel type for Togekiss' partner. It covers the most weaknesses, can handle Tyranitar and Blissey, and draws the most common attack in the game to it, which Togekiss can switch in on. Bad STAB? Well, look at Metagross, he still Meteor Mashes away. My veiw on things is that this pokemon should be a supporter anyway, not a sweeper in it's own right, or Togekiss will become IT'S perfect partner, helping CAP11 to sweep, which is the reverse of the concept. So we should not make arguments based on 'Electric STAB > Psychic STAB'
I vote steel to be the main typing here although I really don't like another steel in OU...
When we think of defensive birds, Skarmory immediately comes to mind as Steel has great synergy with flying, resisting rock which comes in the form of Stone Edge and Togekiss can definitely not handle and ice, which comes in (maybe) lethal Ice Shards and Ice Punches and okayish Ice Beams. Electric is unresisted but can be handled by Togekiss's high SDef and the rarity of Electivire. In the event of Electivire, Rotom and Zapdos which Togekiss's Fighting/Flying moves cannot handle, Steel can only handle those to a small extent with coverage moves like Stone Edge. Also, Steel is weak to Fighting which Togekiss can only handle to a small extent (Vacuum Wave yes, DynamicPunch no).
Thus, offensively and slightly defensively, Togekiss's match made in heaven can be a ground-type to soak up 2/3 of Togekiss's weaknesses and maim Electivire and Zapdos heavily with EQ and SE. Rotom can be handled with a strong Pursuit, but that's another story.
Overall, I prefer steel to ground due to its sheer amount of resistances, so yeah, there's my reluctant vote.
When we think of defensive birds, Skarmory immediately comes to mind as Steel has great synergy with flying, resisting rock which comes in the form of Stone Edge and Togekiss can definitely not handle and ice, which comes in (maybe) lethal Ice Shards and Ice Punches and okayish Ice Beams. Electric is unresisted but can be handled by Togekiss's high SDef and the rarity of Electivire. In the event of Electivire, Rotom and Zapdos which Togekiss's Fighting/Flying moves cannot handle, Steel can only handle those to a small extent with coverage moves like Stone Edge. Also, Steel is weak to Fighting which Togekiss can only handle to a small extent (Vacuum Wave yes, DynamicPunch no).
Thus, offensively and slightly defensively, Togekiss's match made in heaven can be a ground-type to soak up 2/3 of Togekiss's weaknesses and maim Electivire and Zapdos heavily with EQ and SE. Rotom can be handled with a strong Pursuit, but that's another story.
Overall, I prefer steel to ground due to its sheer amount of resistances, so yeah, there's my reluctant vote.
I support having the main type of the pokemon to be Ground. There are many reasons as to why Ground can offer a better synergic main type as opposed to others. These mainly include:
- Resistance against Rock and Ice type attacks which are two of three of Togekiss's weaknesses
- Has a weankess to Stealth Rock which can further allow to to reiably and constantly switch in on a counter to Togekiss
I don't like this concept and don't normally participate in CAP at all, but here's some thoughts.
Togekiss's main counters are not Tyranitar or Scizor. They are both easily beaten by Togekiss's most common NP set. Rotom-A and Zapdos are EASILY much bigger threats. Also, Thunderbolts are really not terrible for Togekiss, they never OHKO without STAB and a boost. I feel a lot of users are weighing in who really have no concept as to how NP Togekiss works.
A Ground type is the obvious choice. Rotom-A and Zapdos both can't use their primary STAB against it, and it also could help with stuff like Metagross and Jirachi which are similarly pests to Togekiss. Any other choice simply doesn't have any inherent advantage on Togekiss's two actual counters rather than assuming "oh it's normal flying so it must hate ice beam" Factor in an SR resist and Thunder Wave immunity and you have butter.
Togekiss's main counters are not Tyranitar or Scizor. They are both easily beaten by Togekiss's most common NP set. Rotom-A and Zapdos are EASILY much bigger threats. Also, Thunderbolts are really not terrible for Togekiss, they never OHKO without STAB and a boost. I feel a lot of users are weighing in who really have no concept as to how NP Togekiss works.
A Ground type is the obvious choice. Rotom-A and Zapdos both can't use their primary STAB against it, and it also could help with stuff like Metagross and Jirachi which are similarly pests to Togekiss. Any other choice simply doesn't have any inherent advantage on Togekiss's two actual counters rather than assuming "oh it's normal flying so it must hate ice beam" Factor in an SR resist and Thunder Wave immunity and you have butter.
I fully agree with this, and throwing my vote to Ground. Defensively, it just seems to mesh that well with Togekiss. If I must restate earlier arguments for Ground...
We have a SR resistance, a Thunder Wave Immunity, decent STAB to compliment Kiss....Already, I'm very much liking it. Also, if we do end up choosing Ground, it would likely be physical, and help deal with a certain pink blob a bit easier as well.
As for a secondary type, I'd rather see what we choose as the primary before we start going at it over this.
Just to restate some things people have said that some people seem to be ignoring:
Togekiss is good at taking Ice attacks, as most are special coverage attacks in OU.
Togekiss basically has a pseudo-weakness to Fighting. I've seen several people ignore this.
We want the pokemon to lure in things Togekiss can deal with or hit easily, not just a "take things Togekiss can't kill" poke, because a "take things Togekiss can't kill" poke is basically Colossoil. It needs to depend on 'Kiss as much as Kiss depends on it.
Togekiss is good at taking Ice attacks, as most are special coverage attacks in OU.
Togekiss basically has a pseudo-weakness to Fighting. I've seen several people ignore this.
We want the pokemon to lure in things Togekiss can deal with or hit easily, not just a "take things Togekiss can't kill" poke, because a "take things Togekiss can't kill" poke is basically Colossoil. It needs to depend on 'Kiss as much as Kiss depends on it.
I liked Ground initially, but am now hesitant because of Colossoil. What's the point of remaking a Colossoil minus? However, that typing is definitely the best for Togekiss as a partner, and there is potential to make the Pokémon significantly different with a secondary typing / ability / lack of Fighting weakness. I think it's the best typing, Colossoil notwithstanding (is that enough of a problem? etc.), because of the oft-cited reasons: Thunder Wave immunity, Rock resistance, good physical STAB, blah blah blah. I also disagree that Scizor and Tyranitar are not problems for Togekiss. Scarf Tyranitar is the most common Tyranitar set, and Stone Edge is enough to OHKO, even without SR up:
252 Jolly Choice Scarf Tyranitar Stone Edge
vs. 252/0 Modest Leftovers Togekiss : 93.6% - 110.7%
Meanwhile, the most common Scizor set, Choice Band, 2HKOes without SR:
252 Adamant Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch
vs. 252/0 Modest Leftovers Togekiss : 45.2% - 53.2%
252 Adamant Choice Band Scizor Superpower
vs. Modest Leftovers Togekiss : 72.3% - 85.2%
Togekiss can't beat it one-on-one, but with a Nasty Plot boost it can beat it if it chooses to Bullet Punch. Either way, Togekiss's SR weakness ensures it is nearly always KOed by Superpower. Togekiss CAN always use a Fire move, but that brings me back to a problem I mentioned in concept assessment: 4 moveslot syndrome.
Not to mention the Thunderbolts that have been largely cited as problematic are STAB (Jolty, Zappy, Rotom). :x
I'm not sure what to think yet, since all the typings bring inherent problems without knowing the accompanying secondary typing, but I've been watching this thread. It doesn't matter if our core is weak to a few things, but if we want it to succeed, then it shouldn't have a gaping weakness to Tyranitar.
NARFNra: You're quite right. I've been saying it myself. And here are my thoughts. An Electric-type lures in Earthquakes for 'kiss to come in on, as does a Poison-type. Electric-types also lure the likes of Shaymin and Celebi (at least for the pivot switch; sometimes they switch, if weakened, to avoid a possible Hidden Power Ice). Poison-types lure in Steels, most of which Togekiss cannot take, though. (Metagross, Lucario, [physical] Jirachi...) Psychic-types lure Bug-type attacks (though U-turn + SR is ouch) and Ghost-type attacks for Togekiss to come in on. Ground-types lure in special attackers generally, due to their typically lower Special Defense and weakness to common special attacks (Grass, Ice, Water...).
252 Jolly Choice Scarf Tyranitar Stone Edge
vs. 252/0 Modest Leftovers Togekiss : 93.6% - 110.7%
Meanwhile, the most common Scizor set, Choice Band, 2HKOes without SR:
252 Adamant Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch
vs. 252/0 Modest Leftovers Togekiss : 45.2% - 53.2%
252 Adamant Choice Band Scizor Superpower
vs. Modest Leftovers Togekiss : 72.3% - 85.2%
Togekiss can't beat it one-on-one, but with a Nasty Plot boost it can beat it if it chooses to Bullet Punch. Either way, Togekiss's SR weakness ensures it is nearly always KOed by Superpower. Togekiss CAN always use a Fire move, but that brings me back to a problem I mentioned in concept assessment: 4 moveslot syndrome.
Not to mention the Thunderbolts that have been largely cited as problematic are STAB (Jolty, Zappy, Rotom). :x
I'm not sure what to think yet, since all the typings bring inherent problems without knowing the accompanying secondary typing, but I've been watching this thread. It doesn't matter if our core is weak to a few things, but if we want it to succeed, then it shouldn't have a gaping weakness to Tyranitar.
NARFNra: You're quite right. I've been saying it myself. And here are my thoughts. An Electric-type lures in Earthquakes for 'kiss to come in on, as does a Poison-type. Electric-types also lure the likes of Shaymin and Celebi (at least for the pivot switch; sometimes they switch, if weakened, to avoid a possible Hidden Power Ice). Poison-types lure in Steels, most of which Togekiss cannot take, though. (Metagross, Lucario, [physical] Jirachi...) Psychic-types lure Bug-type attacks (though U-turn + SR is ouch) and Ghost-type attacks for Togekiss to come in on. Ground-types lure in special attackers generally, due to their typically lower Special Defense and weakness to common special attacks (Grass, Ice, Water...).
I think the main typing should be ground.
With ground, the only problem would be ice, which couldn't be easy to kill. That makes the combo "beatable" like infernape gets the skarmbliss combo. But, it would be hard to kill any other way. Here are the pros and cons:
Pros:
-Grass resisted by Togekiss
-Rock resisted by CAP
-Electric resisted by CAP
-When paired, all entree hazards are resited
-Water weakness is mainly special, and Togekiss can cover that
-Since air slash is very common on togekiss, pokemon that resist flying will come in. Ground hits all those types super effectively.
-Since earthquake would be (most likely) popular, pokemon that resist it are grass, flying, and bug, of which most are weak to flying.
-Specially defensive togekiss, and (most likely) physically defensive CAP
Cons:
-Ice weakness
-Neutral to most types
With all those pros, the cons hardly matter!
With ground, the only problem would be ice, which couldn't be easy to kill. That makes the combo "beatable" like infernape gets the skarmbliss combo. But, it would be hard to kill any other way. Here are the pros and cons:
Pros:
-Grass resisted by Togekiss
-Rock resisted by CAP
-Electric resisted by CAP
-When paired, all entree hazards are resited
-Water weakness is mainly special, and Togekiss can cover that
-Since air slash is very common on togekiss, pokemon that resist flying will come in. Ground hits all those types super effectively.
-Since earthquake would be (most likely) popular, pokemon that resist it are grass, flying, and bug, of which most are weak to flying.
-Specially defensive togekiss, and (most likely) physically defensive CAP
Cons:
-Ice weakness
-Neutral to most types
With all those pros, the cons hardly matter!
Two types stand out as the best types to partner with Togekiss, Ground and Electric. Ground resists Rock and Electric, but is still vulnerable to Ice
However, overall, I would have to nomiate Electric type as my preference. It resists electric attacks, and its perfect bait for earthquake, which Togekiss can switch in and just encore.
I always thought that Lanturn make a great partner to Togekiss, with Volt Absorb and Water Typing. Together they have great syngery, and can spread paralysis throughout a team.
However, overall, I would have to nomiate Electric type as my preference. It resists electric attacks, and its perfect bait for earthquake, which Togekiss can switch in and just encore.
I always thought that Lanturn make a great partner to Togekiss, with Volt Absorb and Water Typing. Together they have great syngery, and can spread paralysis throughout a team.
No matter how many times I look at it, Electric just seems like the best answer. Not only for luring EQs and EPs that Togekiss switches in on with impunity, but also for setting up TWave. A lot of Togekiss builds run TWave to allow its modest speed to outrun just about everything and flinchlock with Air Slash + Serene Grace. This frees up another slot for type coverage, or adds TWave to a build that previously didn't have access to it.
The combination of Electric + Togekiss would have difficulty dealing with bulky Ground types that have access to Stone Edge or an Ice attack (namely Hippowdon, Gliscor, Swampert, and Mamoswine), who aren't easily swept by Air Slash and can severely injure Togekiss on a turn during which Air Slash fails to flinch. Togekiss can run Water pulse to take care of Hippowdon, Gliscor, and Mamoswine, which comes with the added bonus of a boosted 40% chance of confusion. Mamoswine will still be able to get off his Ice Shards, but 252 SpA Togekiss 2HKOs Mamo with Water Pulse. Mamo 2HKOs Toge with Ice Shard in return, but a lucky confusion could prevent that. Grass knot OHKOs Swampert and 2HKOs Hippo, but is pretty lackluster against Gliscor and Mamoswine.
Those 4 trouble pokes could end up being ridiculously easily blown over if the Electric-Type also happened to be, say, secondary Grass-Type with Levitate, but that's just wishful thinking in addition to getting off-subject.
The combination of Electric + Togekiss would have difficulty dealing with bulky Ground types that have access to Stone Edge or an Ice attack (namely Hippowdon, Gliscor, Swampert, and Mamoswine), who aren't easily swept by Air Slash and can severely injure Togekiss on a turn during which Air Slash fails to flinch. Togekiss can run Water pulse to take care of Hippowdon, Gliscor, and Mamoswine, which comes with the added bonus of a boosted 40% chance of confusion. Mamoswine will still be able to get off his Ice Shards, but 252 SpA Togekiss 2HKOs Mamo with Water Pulse. Mamo 2HKOs Toge with Ice Shard in return, but a lucky confusion could prevent that. Grass knot OHKOs Swampert and 2HKOs Hippo, but is pretty lackluster against Gliscor and Mamoswine.
Those 4 trouble pokes could end up being ridiculously easily blown over if the Electric-Type also happened to be, say, secondary Grass-Type with Levitate, but that's just wishful thinking in addition to getting off-subject.
Psychic is a bad idea. It yields neither offensive nor defensive benefit for Togekiss and has an entire list of problems already that keep its greatest representatives from being OU. You'll have to do a lot to work around how badly it gets ruined by TTar, Scizor, Steels, and Pursuit. On top of that, you don't even get a good STAB out of the deal. I don't see any reason at all to support this.
Steel is good for resisting two of Togekiss's weaks and attracting Ground attacks, but it also attracts Fighting types, none of which Togekiss can safely switch in on and dispatch. Not much of a partnership when an extremely prominent offensive presence rips you in two without even blinking.
As for Ground...that double Ice weakness looks very unappealing, especially since it's such a common attacking type, but we have a seriously limited number of powerful Ice attackers in OU so maybe having uncommon Pokemon breaking through the duo might not be such a bad idea. Other than that, we're looking at a serious competitor here: STAB EQ for offense, Electric immunity and Rock resistance for defense, SR resistance, shuts down Tyranitar, Jirachi, and Metagross...we might be onto something here.
Also, I have to say, I was once keen on the idea of CAP11's main typing being Electric, but it's really not going to help vs. any of Togekiss's counters. But we don't know the moves, stats, or secondary typing yet, so it still has potential.
Now that I think about it, going Ground is a step in the right direction. Let's just see if we can turn this step into a stroll.
Steel is good for resisting two of Togekiss's weaks and attracting Ground attacks, but it also attracts Fighting types, none of which Togekiss can safely switch in on and dispatch. Not much of a partnership when an extremely prominent offensive presence rips you in two without even blinking.
As for Ground...that double Ice weakness looks very unappealing, especially since it's such a common attacking type, but we have a seriously limited number of powerful Ice attackers in OU so maybe having uncommon Pokemon breaking through the duo might not be such a bad idea. Other than that, we're looking at a serious competitor here: STAB EQ for offense, Electric immunity and Rock resistance for defense, SR resistance, shuts down Tyranitar, Jirachi, and Metagross...we might be onto something here.
Also, I have to say, I was once keen on the idea of CAP11's main typing being Electric, but it's really not going to help vs. any of Togekiss's counters. But we don't know the moves, stats, or secondary typing yet, so it still has potential.
Now that I think about it, going Ground is a step in the right direction. Let's just see if we can turn this step into a stroll.
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