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Salamence is Uber.
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Having not been at Smogon for very long and I was wondering about two things in the wake of Mence being banned:
1) Did similar speculation about a huge change to the metagame take place after Latias and Garchomp?
2) If so, did the speculation get proved right?
I'm just curious, what with the radical changes suggested by this thread given Nite and flygon are waiting in the wings.
1) Did similar speculation about a huge change to the metagame take place after Latias and Garchomp?
2) If so, did the speculation get proved right?
I'm just curious, what with the radical changes suggested by this thread given Nite and flygon are waiting in the wings.
1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
I like the change, I think it promotes variety. It's a bit gay ahving to dedicate 1-2 pokemon slots to countering mence (as well as doing other things as well of course, but still). It is rediculously limiting when you need to run one of a handful of pokemon on every team.
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
Pana's argument is that when you don't need to dedicate a slot just to beat mence, you have more room to run stall breakers, and I agree. If you can't break stall without mence, there's something wrong. In all honesty, these players probably don't know the game very well. It might be more threatening on the ladder, but when the top players play, it'll be the same.
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Dragonite obviously. It's not quite as good but it's still really good. The only reason it wasn't used as much was because it was a lesser version of mence (for most things), not becuase it wasn't any good. Apart from mence, I think there'll be new scarfers running around just because you no longer need the top speed stat to beat mence. It's much easier out-running +1 gyara for example.
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
Dunno, I always liked the old method. We'll see how things go, at least we're changing the council members every time, depending on their credentials.
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
Who cares? What does that have anything to do with the OU tiering process really. Get this straight, ubers is a tier created to take out the overpowered stuff from OU. It doesn't matter how strong it is compared to the other ubers, it can still be too good in OU. It's not like there'll be more people using mence in ubers now either. They could use mence before, they can use mence now, nothing has changed from the uber metagame pov.
6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
Mence? lol
Ummmm... Scizor is my pick right now. It was a poke that strove on the metagame imo, largely because of the dragons. It'll be around, but it shouldn't be top 10.
7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
No idea really. Shaymin's pretty much OU now, but that's BL right?
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
Ummmm not really. 5th gen is right around the corner and what if it realeases a lot of good mence counters? We'll have to put mence back into this meta for a test. Then again, I understand not wanting to play against an uber for 2 more months.
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
It was good because it centralises the metagame, and even then, most teams are mixmence weak. I completely approve of it being a suspect, as well as the decision that it's uber. The only thing I don't like is the timing.
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
Ummmm what? We're not here to get rid of the OU list altogether. If this meta is fun and balanced, nothing will go to ubers. It's not a good idea to look for uber candidates one after another. Only do that when the game's centralized.
I like the change, I think it promotes variety. It's a bit gay ahving to dedicate 1-2 pokemon slots to countering mence (as well as doing other things as well of course, but still). It is rediculously limiting when you need to run one of a handful of pokemon on every team.
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
Pana's argument is that when you don't need to dedicate a slot just to beat mence, you have more room to run stall breakers, and I agree. If you can't break stall without mence, there's something wrong. In all honesty, these players probably don't know the game very well. It might be more threatening on the ladder, but when the top players play, it'll be the same.
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Dragonite obviously. It's not quite as good but it's still really good. The only reason it wasn't used as much was because it was a lesser version of mence (for most things), not becuase it wasn't any good. Apart from mence, I think there'll be new scarfers running around just because you no longer need the top speed stat to beat mence. It's much easier out-running +1 gyara for example.
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
Dunno, I always liked the old method. We'll see how things go, at least we're changing the council members every time, depending on their credentials.
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
Who cares? What does that have anything to do with the OU tiering process really. Get this straight, ubers is a tier created to take out the overpowered stuff from OU. It doesn't matter how strong it is compared to the other ubers, it can still be too good in OU. It's not like there'll be more people using mence in ubers now either. They could use mence before, they can use mence now, nothing has changed from the uber metagame pov.
6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
Mence? lol
Ummmm... Scizor is my pick right now. It was a poke that strove on the metagame imo, largely because of the dragons. It'll be around, but it shouldn't be top 10.
7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
No idea really. Shaymin's pretty much OU now, but that's BL right?
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
Ummmm not really. 5th gen is right around the corner and what if it realeases a lot of good mence counters? We'll have to put mence back into this meta for a test. Then again, I understand not wanting to play against an uber for 2 more months.
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
It was good because it centralises the metagame, and even then, most teams are mixmence weak. I completely approve of it being a suspect, as well as the decision that it's uber. The only thing I don't like is the timing.
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
Ummmm what? We're not here to get rid of the OU list altogether. If this meta is fun and balanced, nothing will go to ubers. It's not a good idea to look for uber candidates one after another. Only do that when the game's centralized.
Assuming I know nothing about the banning or suspect process, I'm curious, was banning outrage on salamence an option? Or does it over-complicate and make things too specialized?
@Justinawe: Okay, I see. Thanks for clearing that up!
The latter option. If banning moves was an option, then we could have just banned Swords Dance on Garchomp, Encore on Wobbuffet, and hell, even Draco Meteor on Latias. Banning moves makes things more complicated then they already are. Once the pokemon is gone, you remove the problem completely and don't have to worry about trivial moves.
That was never an option, as it opens a whole can of worms. If we do that, then, under the same standard, we'd have to allow stuff like Headbutt-only Rayquaza in OU. Staraptor, so long as it only knows moves like Tackle or whatever, could be used in UU. It just makes things way to messy and complicated, so it really is for the best that we decide things based on the whole package, so to speak.
Eh, bored and feel like answering these.
Also like to point something out:
Oh, one more thing.
I would REALLY REALLY REALLY like a log or summary of the discussion for banning Mence. I want to see what possessed you guys to ban him.
Most people are really afraid of stall now. I'm not exactly sure why. A good Draco Meteor or Outrage DID do a lot but I'm not seeing Mence as any defining factor of Offense vs Stall.
It might be stronger than Menceless metagame, but def not dominant.
Everyone is ignoring poor, poor Weavile. Scizor is fading away into nothing while a lot of its favorite prey are at the top. The Pokemon that was useless without checking Mence is now useful because he's gone. Heh.
The process seemed somewhat more convenient and quick than normal... it was good... until Mence was actually banned.
See: Suspect Ladder
Strange things come up from UU, but Mence's removal won't really help any of them. In fact, it might just send Umbreon back to UU. Nobody would DARE use him in a Nape-only-no-items-final-destination level of metagame.
Couldn't have timed it worse. Now that he's banned we have to have an ARGUEMENT or something over unbanning him when we get the Water/Steel with levitate.
Mence was never ban-worthy to begin with, over centralizing? Maybe, but not it a bad way. Removing it had a HUGE impact on the metagame and literally flipped it on its head. Nothing will ever be the same ever again. EVER. Does that mean it was breaking the metagame? No, it means it was keeping things in balance.
Mence was no more broken than say, Bronzong, so I guess he's next then.
Also like to point something out:
This is an opinion AND a hyperbole. You're throwing it around like it's fact. Stop it.
Oh, one more thing.
I would REALLY REALLY REALLY like a log or summary of the discussion for banning Mence. I want to see what possessed you guys to ban him.
And saying that Salamence is equivalent to Bronzong isn't?
I really hate how people are using all these slippery slope arguments. Oh, they banned Salamence, what next, Luvdisc?
Oh, he used Bullet Seed. What next, a school shooting? It's ridiculous.
Also: I really don't see the distinction between banning things because they're 'broken' and 'customizing the metagame' or whatever. The very act of calling something broken implies that you're not happy with its effect on the metagame. Does Mewtwo really break the game? No; you can still play the game like always, it doesn't crash. You can still use your team of Delibird/Unown etc. You just won't win. That's the point, isn't it? When you ban Mewtwo for being broken, you're really saying that you like a metagame without Mewtwo better than one with it. It's the same with Salamence; it's just a matter of degree. Maybe the ban was justified, maybe not - but I don't see a problem with the philosophy behind it. The tiers were really entirely artificial in the first place.
scizor that has completely changed the metagame is not even bothered looked at but salamence that has been the same since his introduction to the game is all of a sudden banned. Just because stall users didn't like him doesn't mean you got to ruin the game for the whole other lot of people. talk about dropping the ball smogon.
Haha, UltiMario's post was great for a laugh or two, but then realized he was being serious. Salamence did nothing "for the better". It swept through teams with little or no effort put into it. Sure, it wasn't exactly the best wallbreaker, having to be trapped into Outrage to actually kill Blissey and all, but it did its job efficiently. Salamence didn't over-centralize too much, other than the fact people used Scizor JUST FOR Salamence.
Salamence is banned because it... read above, please? And, Salamence was not completely the same this gen. Salamence got a move called DRACO METEOR. And, at the beginning of this gen., Salamence was overshadowed by Garchomp, Wobbufett, Deoxys-Speed forme, Shaymin-SKy forme, and, most recntly, Latias
Scizor isn't bothered to be looked at because of the fact it's NOT BROKEN. Zapdos and Gyarados completely WALL him.
i dont even think scizor was a counter for mence. Obviously its going to use bullet punch. And for bulky mence varients Mence laughs at scizors attacks then roost back his health. DD then sweep . even if its revenge killed by scizor something else will take its place like hmm emplolion (spelling) or gyarados or zone himself.
Scizor isn't a counter, very good. Scizor checked Salamence, taking Draco Meteor and Outrage like a champ, then killing it off with Bullet Punch. And even if Zone come sin on Scizor, people don't care, seeing as though Scizor did its job in killing Salamence.
And, unless you meant for it to be spelled wrong, it's Empoleon.
Scizor wasn't the greatest mence check, but it was one of the easiest. After a dragon dance, the scizor will have to bullet punch, and that is essentially a free KO from magnezone, who will probably further decrease in usage as a result of mence's banning. Bulky salamence does set up on scizor, but still has problems as they have no atk investement, making it difficult to break through things like intimidate gyarados and vappy with dragon claw. and will lose to a crit (which can happen after 3 or 4 bullet punches)
ok then zone comes in subs up on a 4x resisted bullet punch then proceeds to hit your switch in with stab tbolt from 394 special attack. you have got bigger problems than mence if that happens.
Zone is EASILY dealt with. Jolteon, Zapdos, plenty more pokes kill him.
One of the things that kept Scizor usage up, was Mence, take a look at the Usage statistics look at the Old Standard number one, and look at the Suspect most used Pokemon, what do you see? To be honest, Scizor was used mostly to check Salamence (yes, not counter Mence, ever tried switching Scizor in on a Fire Blast/Overheat or Flamethrower?).
With the introduction to Platinum, Salamence got Outrage, which put a brand new perspective on using him. It's not "all of a sudden banned", this has been discussed for months as to whether Salamence should be banned or not, and there were plenty of people who wanted it banned. Scizor
As to your statement about "stall users" not liking him, Salamence isn't the only Pokemon to break stall in OU, do some research, have a look at the other options that can be used to break stall, you'll definately find some.
Personally, I think this is the closest we'll get to a stable metagame until Black and White come out, and far more interesting. It's nice to see change in the tiers every now and then, so that the game doesn't become stale and boring. Come on people instead of complaining about it get on with it, Smogon aren't making these changes to piss people off, they're doing it to create a stable metagame for you all to play. If you don't like OU, then there are other tiers you can play.
the consensus on scizor is basically - it has a ton of hard counters and is merely a pivot mon and can be used as a final revenge killer, the same way flygon or other u-turners can simply give your team the advantage or revenge at the end. this isn't broken by any means, its part of strategy of when to bring in your counters to scizor, and whether to switch out or not. not to mention scizor has nowhere near the sweeping capabilities of salamence, and is shut down completely by magnezone if brought in at the right time. i don't think mence is uber, but it has suspect qualities offensively and support wise - scizor simply doesn't.
i don't like this entire argument, because mence is definitely much more threatening than magnezone who has to rely on having the right hidden power, as well as being hard countered by blissey but anyway, jolteon and zapdos are certainly two pokemon i wouldn't counter with, jolteon cant even hit zone neutral with any of its attacks, taking damage from hidden power fire, grass, or ice. jolteon may force zone out but at that point, jolt is basically done from ss, sr, the hp, maybe lo?, etc. zapdos is even worse, it takes neutral hit from tbolt and the only thing it can threaten it with is heat wave which wont ko or roar which just phazes, meanwhile if you reveal those, you reveal exactly what zapdos you are running without really affecting zone.
1.How will Salamence's removal affect the metagame?
-A lot of good, viable Pokémon are now usable because Mence isn't hanging around over-centralizing the metagame around his insane offensive prowess.
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
-There are still enough good stall breakers in OU.
3.What Pokémon stand out as a Pokémon that thrives without Salamence?
-The rest of the OU Dragons. Grass types.
4.What did you think of the process for Salamence removal?
-It was okay. The speed was great. Putting power in so few people's hands makes you wary of possibility for mistakes being made but it's better than a purely democratic system.
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
-This is kind of irrelevant since you could already use him in Ubers before the banning.
6.What Pokémon will see a decrease in use?
-Scizor's numbers will drop but he'll still be top OU. Weavile and Mamo might drop but I was never convinced they were worth using anyway. I think the best thing about banning Mence is it will make more Pokémon viable.
7. What Pokémon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
-People in this thread have been saying Sceptile and while I don't see it I hope they're right. That would be fun to see.
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
-Yeah. If the panel was right that the game is better without him, now is the perfect time. I've heard people complain that it's so close to B&W, but that's a whole new game. If B&W add a levitating Water/Steel that outspeeds and OHKOs Mence that doesn't make Mence not broken in DPPt. That makes him not broken in B&W. We still need to focus on making the DPPt metagame the best it can be. We can't just drop it and wait for B&W when those games won't even affect DPPt.
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for Ubers?
-Well, he fit the characteristics of an Uber if the people who voted him such are to be believed. (I think they are.)
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
-We'll have to wait and see. Gut instinct is always to want to ban things you hate (HAXRACHI) but if you go with your brain you have to do the research. Play the ladder and see what is breaking the game.
As an aside to those wanting to ban Breloom: Yes he's good, but don't hate on the Shroom. I think he has a healthy affect on the metagame and he's not that hard to stop if you build your team accordingly. And you should, he's in the top 15 iirc. (EDIT: I've been getting rocked by Looms all day. I really need to rebuild my team.)
-A lot of good, viable Pokémon are now usable because Mence isn't hanging around over-centralizing the metagame around his insane offensive prowess.
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
-There are still enough good stall breakers in OU.
3.What Pokémon stand out as a Pokémon that thrives without Salamence?
-The rest of the OU Dragons. Grass types.
4.What did you think of the process for Salamence removal?
-It was okay. The speed was great. Putting power in so few people's hands makes you wary of possibility for mistakes being made but it's better than a purely democratic system.
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
-This is kind of irrelevant since you could already use him in Ubers before the banning.
6.What Pokémon will see a decrease in use?
-Scizor's numbers will drop but he'll still be top OU. Weavile and Mamo might drop but I was never convinced they were worth using anyway. I think the best thing about banning Mence is it will make more Pokémon viable.
7. What Pokémon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
-People in this thread have been saying Sceptile and while I don't see it I hope they're right. That would be fun to see.
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
-Yeah. If the panel was right that the game is better without him, now is the perfect time. I've heard people complain that it's so close to B&W, but that's a whole new game. If B&W add a levitating Water/Steel that outspeeds and OHKOs Mence that doesn't make Mence not broken in DPPt. That makes him not broken in B&W. We still need to focus on making the DPPt metagame the best it can be. We can't just drop it and wait for B&W when those games won't even affect DPPt.
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for Ubers?
-Well, he fit the characteristics of an Uber if the people who voted him such are to be believed. (I think they are.)
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
-We'll have to wait and see. Gut instinct is always to want to ban things you hate (HAXRACHI) but if you go with your brain you have to do the research. Play the ladder and see what is breaking the game.
As an aside to those wanting to ban Breloom: Yes he's good, but don't hate on the Shroom. I think he has a healthy affect on the metagame and he's not that hard to stop if you build your team accordingly. And you should, he's in the top 15 iirc. (EDIT: I've been getting rocked by Looms all day. I really need to rebuild my team.)
TYRANITAR IS GONNA GO NEXT NEXT NEXT!!!
1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
Rise of Many Pokemon scared of Salamence, Scizor will be put down except for T-Tar.
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
There will be a new stall breaker somewhere else...
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Dragonite, Atlast!
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
Tyranitar was a bigger threat.
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
Outclassed by Raq. and Gar
6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
Scizor, Weavile < Not even used before that, Mamoswine< May keep use...
7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
Really Never thought like that.
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
No, Tyranitar first.
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
It wasn't such a threat if you played right. Tyranitar is way more bulky.
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
T-tar must go down. DOWN DOWN DOWN.
1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
Rise of Many Pokemon scared of Salamence, Scizor will be put down except for T-Tar.
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
There will be a new stall breaker somewhere else...
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Dragonite, Atlast!
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
Tyranitar was a bigger threat.
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
Outclassed by Raq. and Gar
6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
Scizor, Weavile < Not even used before that, Mamoswine< May keep use...
7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
Really Never thought like that.
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
No, Tyranitar first.
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
It wasn't such a threat if you played right. Tyranitar is way more bulky.
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
T-tar must go down. DOWN DOWN DOWN.
ofcourse scizor is a check if salamence comes into stealth rock its over for him. stealth rock itself should have been a good enough reason for him not being banned without even mentioning sandstorm and LO, heck with all that even a rattata with a quick attack could take him.
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That's because this is a competitive community.
Salamence was banned because the council decided it,
and that is because the metagame revolved around it, and it was over powered. Don't like it? Too bad.
Just wanna add:
Don't like it? Well, no one's forcing you to actually follow Smogon's tiers outside of Smogon. And even in Smogon's Wi-Fi subforum you may go to the Battle Me thread and say "I do not consider X and Y and Z as Ubers" and find someone else to battle you. Just do not expect to be allowed to use them in standard OU tournaments.
great attacking stats on both sides of the spectrum, a move that makes it the highest viable speed booster in all of ou, stab on what are likely the 2 best attacks in dppt, outrage and draco meteor, intimidate and the bulk to survive revenge kills, a mvoepool that fits exactly what it needs to sweep teams with a mix set (dm/fire blast/eq/outrage), and an excellent typing (dragon flying is good lol, eq immune, fire/water/grass resists, fight resist, etc).
these are the reasons salamence is a suspect in a nutshell (ie: it can rip holes through almost any team), it was voted ubers by panel members who played on suspect and standard and were trusted for their experience in the metagame - the majority voted uber.
Seems like people are trying to make OU into UU with all these bans. Salamence wasn't too centralising and neither was Latias, sure you had to carry a check for it but you didn't have to over prepare for it as much as say Kyogre in Ubers. Maybe a bit of centrality isn't bad for a metagame,
Maybe this is all a ploy to make everyone play Ubers, Ban everyones favorite pokemon to ubers and then everyone will have to play Ubers! Who's next; Scizor? Heatran? Infernape?
Maybe this is all a ploy to make everyone play Ubers, Ban everyones favorite pokemon to ubers and then everyone will have to play Ubers! Who's next; Scizor? Heatran? Infernape?