NP: UU - Silent Night

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Anyway, Milotic isn't a full stop against that team because Glaceon just loves to freeze it every single time. I'd say the only reason that team is successful is because Blizzard loves getting hax be it freezes or crits.

Oh yes, and we can't say Blissey is a full stop to Specs Kingdra because you can get OHKO'd by a Sniper crit Draco Meteor. I'd never call a team that relies on 10% hax chances to get by its counters good, ever.

Oh, and Thund, I apologise for labelling you as a gimmick user, although I have seen you run your gimmick teams. It's not like you run your RMT'd team every match...
 
The day gimmick users aren't automatically labeled as trolls or incompetent is when I'll proudly call myself one. But for now no labels for Thund ktnx.
 
The day gimmick users aren't automatically labeled as trolls or incompetent is when I'll proudly call myself one. But for now no labels for Thund ktnx.

Since when did I ever associate the two?? FYI, I probably run just as many if not more gimmicks as you do.
 
Oh yes, and we can't say Blissey is a full stop to Specs Kingdra because you can get OHKO'd by a Sniper crit Draco Meteor. I'd never call a team that relies on 10% hax chances to get by its counters good, ever.

On paper it really looks stupid to get hax so easily..but when you spam blizzard from so many different pokes and milotic has to constantly switch in...what scoopapa said, you're eventually gonna get frozen...I respect his team because of the constant pressure he uses against opponents, but sometimes I do see certain game changing hax though
 
Since when did I ever associate the two?? FYI, I probably run just as many if not more gimmicks as you do.

I never said you did, but the general population does.

And FYI you don't want to start a gimmick war with me because I already have a few I'm gonna mess with tomorrow. :D
 
I'm not naming any names here.

It's not so much that gimmicks tend to be bad (in fact for many people something has to be bad to be called a gimmick), or that trolling the ladder with "gimmick teams" is annoying. It's simply the sheer attitude that comes with using gimmicks. It's bad enough on Shoddy chat where people think they're the best trainer in the world because they beat some noob's OU team with NUs. But when it happens in this forum it just irks me a little. I'm certain that I'm not alone in thinking this.

People seem to view the use of an uncommon Pokémon to beat the ladder as some kind of ridiculously high achievement. People seem to think that just because they have unorthodox measures against the top Pokémon their voices matter that much more. (Actually, this happened in Garchomp and Salamence threads too... look at what happened to that.) People grind up the ladder, post an RMT, and then watch as their teams get copied and spammed, and they use this to justify acting like a big shot, a rebel against the "competitive" mindset of other players. It's fine that people post uncommon sets to try out from time to time to beat common cores, but then there are some people who seem to have some kind of contempt against the state of the metagame, and who somehow feel that mentioning the Pokémon they like to abuse the most every chance they get is somehow an improvement to this.

Guess what? No one cares! I sure don't. It's come to the point where each avatar is just an indication of what flavour of elitism is going to be presented in the post. But at the end of the day I look at every single person who's had this "my gimmicks are best yo" attitude - in this forum as well as in others - and not a single one has had any sort of significant presence on Smogon, tournament or otherwise, other than maybe C&C. All you guys are doing is squelching the spirit of simply playing the game to learn and improve. I got tired of the predominant culture of this thread a long time ago. Indeed, the Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well here.

The recent Magcargo charade and WhiteQueen's rise to the top of the ladder serve merely to accentuate my point and parody the state of this community. The people arguing about Magcargo typically don't post much here, but what they do post is usually much more profound than most of the rest of the thread. They're much more commonly seen on IRC, planning matches against each other on the CAP server because the ladder isn't good or fun enough. We laugh at the Magcargo argument now, but honestly the rest of the thread hasn't been much better. Then there's WhiteQueen's hail team. From what I've gathered from conversations on IRC, WQ was just gaming the ladder with a team that she probably wouldn't take to a tournament. "Whatever." Not that it's a bad team - if you spam Ice moves enough you'll freeze your counter, end of story - but you get the idea. It's not exactly a tremendous feat to do well on the ladder with a flawed team, even a mono-team.

I haven't been on Shoddy ladders much recently because Shoddy 2 is apparently in the home stretch and I'm basically going on Shoddy and PO to participate in testing projects (currently the Arceus test the only thing, followed by CAP 11 testing and more UU testing in the future I guess). I was never a prolific pole-dancer like some of you guys are anyway :P So I can only imagine what UU is like at this very moment, or what WhiteQueen's team is like. However - I know I've said this many times before but - some things just don't change about UU. People never have to bend over backwards with gimmicks or near-gimmicks to beat the fad of the day. A team I've barely changed for a year and still only changed in response to CroakDoom still works, and indeed CroakDoom is the only consistent combo in my memory that's ever given it severe trouble, other than maybe Life Orb Magmortar and Honchkrow. It's just a simple team of a redundant offense backed up by a tried-and-true defensive core, nothing fancy. Of course I try out suspects and NUs - most half-decent people do - but in the end I tend to fall back on the timeless classics.

So what I'm basically saying is, let's just play this game instead of nitpicking at each other's flaws to boost our own egos.
 
The recent Magcargo charade and WhiteQueen's rise to the top of the ladder serve merely to accentuate my point and parody the state of this community. The people arguing about Magcargo typically don't post much here, but what they do post is usually much more profound than most of the rest of the thread. They're much more commonly seen on IRC, planning matches against each other on the CAP server because the ladder isn't good or fun enough. We laugh at the Magcargo argument now, but honestly the rest of the thread hasn't been much better.

Thanks. Let's hear it for Maggy!

On the WhiteQueen Hail subject, I don't see why people insist on discussing it. The creator herself (himself?) pointed out clearly that her team has its flaws, more than other standart teams you constantly see on the top of the ladder, and easily crumbles to some very specific threats. Yes, it's situational, and depending on a freeze to win matches is just as risky as depending on Jirachi to flinch/para pokémons throughout the game to achieve the same. Sometimes the hax is not needed at all for you to win, but when pokés like Milotic and Shed Shell Chansey present themselves you'll obviously need some luck on your side. I wouldn't call this team a gimmick because the definition I get from that word is "a certain set/playstyle that works once, but as soon as your opponent has smartened up and gets to know about its tricks, it simply won't work again". That's why they work on tournaments, not on the ladder. On the other hand, WhiteQueen's team doesn't fit that definition because it still works even if you know exactly what's going to happen; but the real reason I wouldn't call it a reliable team is because a considerable number of your losses will happen on turn one, when the team match-up is taken; and those sure losses will come much more often than with a team that attempts to cover everything.
 
I think the reason the discussion began was because someone was asking how to deal with it if, say, your primary counter, e.g. Milotic, gets frozen or something(which is likely to happen with 3+ Blizzard spammers in Hailish weather) and then someone questioned the viability of said team(without answering the question, from what I can tell).
 
To deal with hail, I've swapped out my fire type again from NP Ninetales to Sunny Day Entei. It doesn't get two shotted by annoying Arcanine's extremespeed like Houndoom and Ninetales yet can still handle Milotic with Solarbeam. Since WhiteQueen's RMT spawned a bunch of terrible ones that beat me with the slightest ounce of hax, I decided to try a full out stop to it. It fits since it has synergy with my Chlorophyll Exeggutor.

It probably wouldn't work against WhiteQueen since he/she never sacrifices Snover early, but the copycat teams sure love to toss him aside by turn two.

And while testing this Entei, I just want to elaborate that there is a reason Arcanine, Houndoom, and Moltres are UU's top three fires. All three of them avoid getting checkmated by Dugtrio. God damn Dugtrio.
 
Yeah, I've had enough trashtalking now too.

Anyway, by the looks of it, Venusaur is going to be a Suspect. If he ends up banned, what Grass Pokemon would (attempt) to take its place?? Yes, I have been arguing against Venusaur getting banned, but would actually be quite pleased if he did. I could finally use Meganium without looking like a total dork, lol.
 
Well, the only way you'd look like a dork using Meganium is if you weren't using Aromatherapy, which is probably the only support option it doesn't possess.

Also, Venusaur is not BL, you guys be trippin'.
 
there's like 3 venusaur nominations out of 55 posts in the nom thread. don't worry about it
 
If 3 noms out of 55 ends up getting it nominated then this system is corrupt IMO





Oh and vileplume > meganium as venu replacement. That poison typing is vital. + sleep powder.
 
Well, it's already been a week since the deadline. I wonder whether the suspect procedure has been abandoned until September, lol.
 
Oh and vileplume > meganium as venu replacement. That poison typing is vital.
What does Vileplume have over Meganium?

For possibly good options, Meganium has DualScreens, Magic Coat, Outrage, Earthquake, Leaf Storm, Overgrow, and better stats except Special Attack. Heck, it's bulkier than Venusaur. It gets Iron Tail too, but it really doesn't help much.

Vileplume has Poison typing and thus STAB Sludge Bomb, Fling, Sleep Powder, higher Special Attack, and Clorophyll, which is only of use on Sunny Day teams.

Both Pokemon learn Swords Dance. It should also be noted that Vileplume learns Aromatherapy by level up, while Meganium gets it as an egg move. In short, Vileplume has a few tricks up its sleeve, such as Sleep Powder, but Meganium seems to be better overall. Vileplume is really just an inferior Venusaur, while Meganium is substantially different.
 
Well, it's already been a week since the deadline. I wonder whether the suspect procedure has been abandoned until September, lol.

Yeah, the reason you haven't heard anything is because there isn't much to hear. I think Jabba and I have both been rather distracted by the World Cup of Pokemon, but the gist of it is that we have another situation of no Suspects. It looks to me like not much is going to change until the next tiering update.
 
Ok Milotic is really getting on my nerves. It's easy to say "use Venusaur" but when it outspeeds and KOs with Hydro Pump + Ice Beam then what do you do?

I don't want to be forced to use Lanturn (only bulky water which can actually break through Milotic) on ever team -_-
 
That's my favorite Milotic to face ever. Not being able to take a Thunder Fang from Arcanine is just a lol burden for a Milotic to have.
 
Offensive Milotic is good at checking specific stuff, like Azumarill/Feraligatr/Modest Moltres. It's also good because Venusaur is generally a bitch to offensive teams that don't have the luxury of ResTalk Weezing - you can lure it out and KO it. You also get to do lots to things like Leafeon that try to set up coming in on a weak Surf and take massive damage from LO Hydro Pump.
 
If 3 noms out of 55 ends up getting it nominated then this system is corrupt IMO

Because those fifty-five nominations, which lack reasoning of any sort, should be held with as much weight as the nominations posted with reasoning. Granted, it wasn't a requirement to post reasoning for a "No Suspects" nomination, but it just seems wrong for the nominations of people who haven't even played this phase to be treated with equal weight as the ones of those who did. Nominations are evaluated on a player-by-player basis (SEXP), so it was not exactly a "3 vs. 52" thing. On a side note, there were five, not three, Venusaur nominations, other nominations for suspects that weren't Venusaur, and only fifty-four, not fifty-five, nominations.

Alchemator said:
Ok Milotic is really getting on my nerves. It's easy to say "use Venusaur" but when it outspeeds and KOs with Hydro Pump + Ice Beam then what do you do?

I don't want to be forced to use Lanturn (only bulky water which can actually break through Milotic) on ever team -_-

Use 252 HP / 252 SpD Calm Venusaur. Other answers to offensive Milotic include your own Milotic (with Toxic), Clefable, Chansey, and Sceptile.
 
Because those fifty-five nominations, which lack reasoning of any sort, should be held with as much weight as the nominations posted with reasoning. Granted, it wasn't a requirement to post reasoning for a "No Suspects" nomination, but it just seems wrong for the nominations of people who haven't even played this phase to be treated with equal weight as the ones of those who did. Nominations are evaluated on a player-by-player basis (SEXP), so it was not exactly a "3 vs. 52" thing. On a side note, there were five, not three, Venusaur nominations, other nominations for suspects that weren't Venusaur, and only fifty-four, not fifty-five, nominations.

Then the system needs to be changed for nominations. The system, atm, doesn't require much explanation for the no suspect response, so they have to be rated the same.

Use 252 HP / 252 SpD Calm Venusaur. Other answers to offensive Milotic include your own Milotic (with Toxic), Clefable, Chansey, and Sceptile.


qft, calm venu owns milotic. sceptile, ime, can only switch in once though
 
Offensive Milotic is pretty much completely blocked by <Insert bulky Water with some form of recovery here>, and <Insert Special wall with some form of recovery here>. Bulky Grass Pokemon like Calm Venusaur does really well too.
 
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