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NP: UU - Silent Night
- Thread starter reachzero
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Posting an opinion without backing it up is just asking for it to be challenged. He countered your statement with reasoning of his own. That's essentially the point of a discussion.
There are a variety of ways to defeat Milotic, including Grass-types (such as Venusaur and Sceptile), special walls (Chansey and Clefable), Toxic (mostly utilized by bulky Water-types), Calm Mind, strong physical Water-types (Azumarill and Feraligatr) and Toxicroak. Yes, Milotic can beat some of its potential counters depending on its moves; however, it cannot beat all of them with one moveset.
There are a variety of ways to defeat Milotic, including Grass-types (such as Venusaur and Sceptile), special walls (Chansey and Clefable), Toxic (mostly utilized by bulky Water-types), Calm Mind, strong physical Water-types (Azumarill and Feraligatr) and Toxicroak. Yes, Milotic can beat some of its potential counters depending on its moves; however, it cannot beat all of them with one moveset.
the only reason I hate Milotic is because every so often you switch in your Toxicroak(or other Milo 'counter'), only to be exploded by LO Ice Beam or HP:Psychic or whatever stupid crap. most of the time, though, she's just a fat whore who doesn't patch up all the team weaknesses people attempt her to, e.g. she cannot handle a lot of physical threats she attempts to wall.
Heaven forbid we raise some discussion about the #1 pokemon in the tier being too potent?
And I don't understand why people say LoMilotic is a LOLOmilotic. You do realize it has the same STAB and SpA as Starmie? (Excluding Psychic because nobody uses that now that Heracross is dying)
It's been done to death. Same commentary, same outcomes.
It seems people can't help themselves, whenever LO Milotic takes more damage than tank Milotic would have, they make some comment. They're completely different. Bulky Milotic is a better all-around pokemon. LO Milotic is better for what my team needs. Get it?
Same outcomes of what? Using gimmicks like Passho Houndoom or cheesy lures like CBcanine thunder fang proving it's s00per weak?
Riiight.
congratulations, you figured out that you need to hit walls hard to make them go away! I can easily say the same for registeel; keep pounding at it with non stab thunderbolts and watch it die. you do know that a lot of things can beat milotic / use it as set up fodder? out of the top 25: milotic, venusaur, mismagius, registeel, clefable, rotom, sceptile, hitmonlee, toxicroak, and torterra can all comfortably switch in on 3/4 of milotic's moves and 2hko it or set up on it; not to mention things like sd ken and sd kabutops which can ohko milotic after the boost. milotic is good, yes, and the second best pokemon in the tier, but every wall needs to be hit hard to be knocked out. and when did i ever say "need" a lure? luring out and koing milotic with something like passho doom is akin to luring and koing registeel to set up a mismagius sweep. you by no means need a lure to defeat milotic; you do it to help something sweep better. of course milotic will wall some pokemon. but not everything.
so your claim for milotic going to bl is that it beat your slowbro? i see no point of your anecdote. you honestly can't tell me that you are not aware that some milotic run toxic or haze? the list of viable moves for milotic is probably haze / surf / recover / ice beam / hp grass / refresh / toxic. not to hard to remember. some pokemon can't beat some pokemon; you don't keep in venusaur in on arcanine, do you? if milotic shows toxic, then you aren't going to use a slowbro to combat it. if houndoom shows beat up you sure as hell aren't switching in chansey. altaria, fine, take it. cb altaria 2hkoes almost all milotic almost all of the time; dd lo 2kos after haze, and specially bulky dd is setting up on your weak ice beams as it stands. toxicroak suffers a narrow 4hko (3hko if you invest in satk) from ice beam. i'd say it sufficiently counters it.
ice beam is not that good on milotic and i see no reason why it is used on 70% of them. venusaur can come in, shrug off the hit with synthesis, and force you out. that's the definition of a counter. come in with little to no risk to yourself and force them out.altaria, fine, take it. cb altaria 2hkoes almost all milotic almost all of the time; dd lo 2kos after haze, and specially bulky dd is setting up on your weak ice beams as it stands. toxicroak suffers a narrow 4hko (3hko if you invest in satk) from ice beam. i'd say it sufficiently counters it.
here your post starts to become incoherent. enough grass types to spam ice beam until its drained of pp? milotic can probably score a solid hit, but grass types have access to synthesis and one wrong misprediction (toxicing that venusaur switch!!) and you're dead. toxicroak counters it by coming in, healing off damage from surf, swords dancing in its face and 2hkoing it. passho houndoom nasty plots as milotic comes in and dark pulses twice for the kill while eating a surf. an effective lure. i see no point to your arguements; you need to hit it hard to kill it, it can beat my slowbro, grass types take 40% from ice beam. very weak arguements in my opinion. eagerly awaiting your defense to what i have responded!
Person A: Milotic is broken.
General response: No it's not [insert things that can beat it yadda yadda].
EDIT: Bad Ass presented an incredibly timely ninja post.
Well, lets test that.
Milotic vs. Milotic, either one wins, then Milotic Wins
Venusar vs Milotic, Vensaur wins
Mismagius vs Milotic, every set besides the SubPlotTaunt one gets out recovered and hazed. Tie
Registeel vs Milotic, they both do piss poor damage to eachother, but Milotic has instant recovery, which makes it stall out longer. Milotic Wins
Clefable vs Milotic, Clefable can't out damage Recover+Leftovers and gets PP stalled out of GRass Knot. Milotic Wins
Rotom vs Milotic, Finnaly, a serious contender for the SubCharge set, neither can switch into eachother Tie
Sceptile vs Milotic, Sceptile wins, period.
Hitmonlee vs Milotic, Milotic can stall out 3 CloseCombats with recover than KO it with surf at -3. Milotic Wins
Toxicroak vs Milotic, any set without Taunt gets Hazed. Tie
Torterra vs. Milotic Neither can siwtch into eachother. Tie Althought it is something to note that if Milotic has 50 evs put into speed, Milotic wins.
PS: I don't want Milotic banned. Not because I think it's broken/not broken, but just because I hate having less options.
PPS: All calculations assume the both switch into each other at the same time.
You seem to be a bit biased and your statements aren all correct....
And are you talking about offensive or defensive Milotic? In most of your examples you picked the better suited Milotic-Set which is kinda awkward.
Well Milotic needs to predictthe Switch-In OR have to be a fast LifeOrb-Variant. The fast LO-Variant cant wall much of the metagame anymore without the Defense-EV's.....
If SubPlot/CM-Mismagius carries Thunderbolt, which it should, Milotic will definitely loose if you doesnt run an absud amount of Special Defense.
If Registeel carries Toxic or Rest it will definitely win. He can explode on Milotic too.
Milotic CANT win vs. Clefable. Firstly Clefable has access to Encore, Trick (with Toxic Orb), Toxic, Calm Mind and secondly posseses two good methods of healing itself with Softboiled and Wish too.
In most cases Clefable will win.
And then Toxicroak attacks until you have tio recover sets up a NP/SD and attacks again and so on.... ultimately Milotic will run out of Recover-PP and Toxicroak wins.
Just sayin.....
Yeah Milotic IS hard to break down but Milotic in itself cant wall an entire Team and does pitiful amounts of damage if she doesnt hit super-effective or is offensive orientated in which case she wont wall that much anymore. Shes good - like many Top UUs - but not broken.
And are you talking about offensive or defensive Milotic? In most of your examples you picked the better suited Milotic-Set which is kinda awkward.
Well Milotic needs to predictthe Switch-In OR have to be a fast LifeOrb-Variant. The fast LO-Variant cant wall much of the metagame anymore without the Defense-EV's.....
If SubPlot/CM-Mismagius carries Thunderbolt, which it should, Milotic will definitely loose if you doesnt run an absud amount of Special Defense.
If Registeel carries Toxic or Rest it will definitely win. He can explode on Milotic too.
Milotic CANT win vs. Clefable. Firstly Clefable has access to Encore, Trick (with Toxic Orb), Toxic, Calm Mind and secondly posseses two good methods of healing itself with Softboiled and Wish too.
In most cases Clefable will win.
And then Toxicroak attacks until you have tio recover sets up a NP/SD and attacks again and so on.... ultimately Milotic will run out of Recover-PP and Toxicroak wins.
Just sayin.....
Yeah Milotic IS hard to break down but Milotic in itself cant wall an entire Team and does pitiful amounts of damage if she doesnt hit super-effective or is offensive orientated in which case she wont wall that much anymore. Shes good - like many Top UUs - but not broken.
Ok I edited out your semi-coherent points.
Mismagius: How the hell does Milotic tie against Mismagius. Don't tell you you're gonna spam Haze when Missy comes in so it can't set up. +2 Thunderbolt does 74.8% - 88.5% to the standard Milotic, an obvious 2HKO at +2 then +0. This means you can't stay in and Haze it, because you're gonna get killed the next turn. and what's more, they can even choose to set up more NPs as you're forced to recover. SubCM versions set up an unbreakable Sub in your face. Even at +1, Missy still does 56.5% - 66.7%, a 2HKO. You're forced to either Haze or Recover, and Missy can just keep boosting and attacking since you're not going to be breaking her Sub thanks to CM's SpD boost. Mismagius obviously wins.
Registeel: Who is going to switch in Registeel into Milotic and try to take it down 1 on 1? Registeel doesn't come in to try to kill Milotic, it comes in to set up. Milotic's pitiful damage lets Registeel have practically free turns to set up SR, TOXIC Milo, and then GTFO and let something like Venu come in for free. Sure, Milo beats Registeel 1 on 1, but that's only going to happen when they are the only two pokes left. Milo is free turns and set up bait.
Clefable: Again, same situation as Registeel. If I switch Clefable in to Milo I'm not trying to kill it. Clefable can come in, set up SR, Aromatherapy to heal her team, TOXIC Milo, and not to mention it has reliable recovery as well so you're not killing it anytime soon either. Milo is free turns and set-up bait
Toxicroak: You have got to be kidding me. Like with Missy, you're going to just spam Haze so I can't set up? Of course not, unless you really are that bad of a player. Croak has a free turn to set up a +2 boost in either attack stat as you pitifully Ice Beam it for like 30%. As you haze, +2 Low Kick with Life Orb does 78.6% - 92.6%, an easy 2HKO with the next turn unboosted. +2 Focus Blast does 80.9% - 95.4%, so it's the same situation, and Croak can use Sludge Bomb the next turn to ensure Fail Blast doesn't let him down. Seriously you can't use Haze as an argument when Milotic gets 2HKOed easily by a +2 attack followed by an unboosted one. Milo is set-up bait AND gets killed.
Torterra: OK so Torterra can't switch into Ice Beam, but I guarentee you that out of all the turns in the battle where Milotic is using a move, Ice Beam will NOT be more frequent than Surf and Recover. Any smart Torterra user isn't going to immediately try to send in Torterra, they wait for an obvious non-Ice Beam move. And all those speed-creeping Milotic that run enough speed to beat x offensive threat are just asking to be 2HKOed by y offensive threat when they normally wouldn't be. Tie only if Torterra user is stupid. Otherwise win.
EDIT: ninja'd by Conflict
In my experiences, it's more difficult to force it out than anything. To force it out you really need a strong (and by strong I mean specs and upwards if unstabbed) super-effective attack, and these Pokémon can't stand up to offensive Milotic. Naturally, you can EV Venusaur to beat Milotic perfectly every time, but that leaves you open to other threats.
It's also difficult to compare Milotic to other walls. Comparing it generally to other walls such as Chansey and Registeel is impossible, in fact.
Chansey has an easily exploitable weakness to physical attacks, not to mention that its sole weakness (Fighting) is almost exclusively physically based in UU (Toxicroak and... uh...). Not to mention Hitmonlee enjoys switching in on Thunder Wave with it having zilch direct offensive presence (I.E. barring Toxic, which hardly takes down Hitmonlee).
Registeel has weaknesses to common attacking types in UU - Fire from Arcanine and Houndoom, Fighting from Hitmonlee and ""top and ground from Donphan and the dangerous Torterra. In a similar vein to Chansey, Registeel has little offensive presence - granted, it can defeat the fire-types with a Thunder Wave on a switch then an Earthquake, but it can't do that to Hitmonlee, and early game Thunder Wave is being thrown around more lightly than Iron Head. Donphan and Torterra flat out beat it.
Milotic, however, possesses the characteristics of the optimum wall. Its Water typing is only hit supereffectively by Electric and Grass. These types are predominantly specially-based (think: Leaf Storm from Venusaur, Thunderbolt from Manectric is the strongest STAB Electric attack likely to be seen in UU [Magneton generally isn't useful enough imo]). This means that the strongest moves against Milotic are hitting it on its stronger defense unlike Fighting-types hitting Chansey on its weaker defense.
Fair enough, you do 103.8% - 122.6% with a 140bp STAB super-effective attack from a max EV'd, Life Orbed base 100 special attack stat. However, it's easy to see Venusaur coming in and Ice Beam from even bulky water Milotic (forget offensive Milotic, you're ice aging it there) does 45.2% - 53.8%. That's 57% after Stealth Rock (minimum). Next time you switch in, say goodbye to Venusaur.
In my previous examples of Chansey and Registeel, they could basically do nothing to their switch-ins (in theory Registeel can beat 2/7, that's 29% if it predicts perfectly). However, here we see that Milotic not just dents its switch-in - it in fact 2HKOes the most common set of its most common check. In addition to this, a throw-away Ice Beam on the switch is much less risky than Registeel's situation. Registeel could be Thunder Waving an incoming Ground-type instead of the Houndoom it was aiming at.
Granted, Milotic can't do much to Clefable due to it being immune to Toxic and not minding much of its moveset, this is a fact. Another fact is that you won't be enjoying my Life Orb Hitmonlee.
It's also difficult to compare Milotic to other walls. Comparing it generally to other walls such as Chansey and Registeel is impossible, in fact.
Chansey has an easily exploitable weakness to physical attacks, not to mention that its sole weakness (Fighting) is almost exclusively physically based in UU (Toxicroak and... uh...). Not to mention Hitmonlee enjoys switching in on Thunder Wave with it having zilch direct offensive presence (I.E. barring Toxic, which hardly takes down Hitmonlee).
Registeel has weaknesses to common attacking types in UU - Fire from Arcanine and Houndoom, Fighting from Hitmonlee and ""top and ground from Donphan and the dangerous Torterra. In a similar vein to Chansey, Registeel has little offensive presence - granted, it can defeat the fire-types with a Thunder Wave on a switch then an Earthquake, but it can't do that to Hitmonlee, and early game Thunder Wave is being thrown around more lightly than Iron Head. Donphan and Torterra flat out beat it.
Milotic, however, possesses the characteristics of the optimum wall. Its Water typing is only hit supereffectively by Electric and Grass. These types are predominantly specially-based (think: Leaf Storm from Venusaur, Thunderbolt from Manectric is the strongest STAB Electric attack likely to be seen in UU [Magneton generally isn't useful enough imo]). This means that the strongest moves against Milotic are hitting it on its stronger defense unlike Fighting-types hitting Chansey on its weaker defense.
Fair enough, you do 103.8% - 122.6% with a 140bp STAB super-effective attack from a max EV'd, Life Orbed base 100 special attack stat. However, it's easy to see Venusaur coming in and Ice Beam from even bulky water Milotic (forget offensive Milotic, you're ice aging it there) does 45.2% - 53.8%. That's 57% after Stealth Rock (minimum). Next time you switch in, say goodbye to Venusaur.
In my previous examples of Chansey and Registeel, they could basically do nothing to their switch-ins (in theory Registeel can beat 2/7, that's 29% if it predicts perfectly). However, here we see that Milotic not just dents its switch-in - it in fact 2HKOes the most common set of its most common check. In addition to this, a throw-away Ice Beam on the switch is much less risky than Registeel's situation. Registeel could be Thunder Waving an incoming Ground-type instead of the Houndoom it was aiming at.
Granted, Milotic can't do much to Clefable due to it being immune to Toxic and not minding much of its moveset, this is a fact. Another fact is that you won't be enjoying my Life Orb Hitmonlee.
It's because of posts like this I don't think Milo is broken in the slightest.
And no other poké outside of Chansey and SpDef Arcanine can constantly switch into Moltres.
And please, if people are going to either try to prove Milo as BL or UU, have more embasement than I beat it with Mono-Fire, which is a ridiculously easy thing to do. Thanks.
But does being a great wall mean that it's BL? Milotic does a particular job and does that job damn well, but there are so so many Pokemon that currently use Milotic's ubiquity as a chance to shine. Milotic doesn't really restrict any type of playstyle particularly:
- stall doesn't care for offensive Milotic at all, as it's never ever beating Chansey, and can be checked by stall's own Milotic / Venusaur. Defensive variants of Milotic aren't given a second thought as stall rarely tries to set up (so Haze is worthless apart from against crotomb) and often carries a cleric (so Toxic can be reversed).
- balance generally has both offensive Pokemon that can force Milotic out (Venusaur/Torterra) and defensive Pokemon that can use it to set up SR or heal (Clefable/Registeel) or even Spike against it (Qwilfish). There are also several almost guarantee lures for defensive Milotic, which balance teams can make the most of to let other threatening sweepers go to town, a prime example being the Passho NP Houndoom + RP Rhyperior combo. Offensive Milotic gives balance trouble, but so does any bulky offensive Pokemon such as Rhyperior or Torterra, since they don't have any obviously exploitable weakness for balance to grab onto.
- offensive teams can use lures for Milotic as easily as balance teams can, but to even greater effect as they generally carry even more sweepers that can demolish Milotic or make the most of its absence. There are more than enough offensive Pokemon in UU that don't give a hoot about Milotic, and while a full health Milo can be very annoying for things like Arcanine and RP Rhyperior, the same can be said of a lot of walls, and it's up to the offense player to come up with one of the easily available strategies for getting around them. Offensive Milotic is outdamaged and outsped by almost all of the standard offensive team's members.
Overall I find Milotic to be a really good wall and it is deserving of its #1 spot, but it's also very one-dimensional and predictable. Ok, 1 on 1 it can beat a lot of sweepers, but the same can be said of Slowbro, who can take on a wider spectrum of physically offensive threats and more often than not come out on top. If a defensive Pokemon didn't do that, if it couldn't wall, it would simply not be used. Milotic's downfall is the fact that the metagame is not 1v1, and that if it comes in to wall a certain Pokemon and force it out, it needs to be ready to face 5 teammates that can potentially take advantage of it. It's not like it's hard to predict when Milotic will come in or what it will do, so if you plan on running Arcanine, make sure you have Qwilfish or Toxicroak or Venusaur to take advantage of it. It is SO common that it is very easy to bring in Arcanine out on an opposing Venusaur and then straight away double switch to Toxicroak to SD up as Milotic comes in and then runs away again.
Milotic's a great Pokemon and undeniably central to the metagame, but I don't think it possesses any BL qualities. I really feel a lot of the Pokemon that call for it to be booted out are doing so because of laziness to build teams that address it properly, or an inability to do so.
Slowbro is more often than not hit on its weaker defense by super-effective attacks - Ghost, Grass, Electric so once again you can't really compare them.
For the most part, however, I agree.
I believe an interesting topic of discussion would be using lures to dispose of Milotic, which were central to LR's argument. I know I'm the comparison police but I think it would be better to compare the situation to a Chansey viewpoint.
Chansey stops non-boosting special attackers cold. However, it is possible to eliminate Chansey by using 'ordinary' Pokémon, as opposed to using Passho Houndoom which is solely for Milotic (lol blastoise) whereas Hitmonlee has other uses than Chansey.
So I put forward this question: To what extent should lures go before their use is considered a symptom of overcentralisation?
you did not just say that milotic beats venusaur; yes you say venusaur wins, but with all this "above 70%" shit is dumb. this is probably the stupidest point in this thread. venusaur has terrific defenses and a great set of resistances that allow it to heal. i don't understand no defenses. manectric has no defenses. venusaur is resistant to electric, water (take a hint), grass, and fighting. four of the most common types in uu. you cannot honestly sit here and say venusaur never gets to synthesis; this is just you trying to make everything seem in milotic's favor.
yeah, because np mismagius doesn't deal 75% to milotic at +2 with thunderbolt. no, milotic can recover and haze. if you want to get smart and haze me, eat a couple thunderbolts and watch as i nasty plot on your recover. there is no way i would ever say mismagius fucking ties with milotic; anyone who says so is retarded.
registeel can possibly use curse or toxic. take this one.
clefable definitely cannot learn encore, cannot encore milotic's recover, and cannot either stall out its recovers or use it as set up fodder. what the hell were you thinking here? not to mention calm mind clefable and toxic clefable. i would never switch milotic into a clefable because clefable wins every time.
YEAH MY MILOTIC LOVES TAKING STAB THUNDERBOLTS! at this point i begin questioning if you have ever played uu. every rotom set can beat milotic. be it pain split, life orb, scarf, specs, restalk, sub, whatever. milotic suffers an easy 2hko from all variants via thunderbolt. i'm sorry if i don't know what a counter is...but iirc outspeeding and 2hkoing while switching in with almost no risk (3hko!!!) is a counter. or maybe it isnt. you tell me.
yeah, sceptile wins period but venusaur needs to be over 70% and has almost no chance to switch in and heal! because sceptile is so much bulkier than venusaur! with better defensive typing!
56.35% - 66.50%. that is adamant life orb hitmonlee close combat vs 252/252 bold milotic. just take off about 5% for stuff like black belt or whatever; i'd love to see your milotic switch in on hitmonlee! i don't see why you are assuming that it is already pokemon vs milotic, because that is the only way milotic even has a chance against things like hitmonlee. the fact of the matter is that your milotic CANNOT SWITCH INTO HITMONLEE, THEREFORE IT DOES NOT WALL IT. get that through your head. if it can't switch in, don't bother.
at this point, i begin to see that you are trolling me. ha ha! toxicroak switches into milotic. unless milotic hazes every swords dance (thats 32!!), you die. ice beam is a 4hko. i can low kick and force you to recover. then i can swords dance. this is in the best case scenario for milotic. toxicroak is one of the hardest motherfucking counters to milotic, and you have the audacity (maybe stupidity is a better word here?) to call it a tie? no.
torterra can't run jolly, torterra can't ohko with wood hammer, and look how many milotic run 56 speed; Milotic | Speed EV | Low (50-100) | 14.8!! so your milotic beats my torterra 15% of the time. i'm no math major, but as far as i know that if torterra beats milotic 85% of the time...and vice versa 15% of the time...i am fairly certain that is not a tie, that is a torterra win.
this doesn't change the fact that your points are ill supported and wrong
im not crying milo for BL because it killed my poor slowbro. im crying it for BL because its so damn versatile, yes it is a good wall, but so are registeel and chansey, and i have no problem with those. chansey can just be nailed with a physical attack, and registeel has no instant recovery, milotic just has neither of these symptoms, and can sponge hits from both the physical and special spectrum.
The amount of logical reasoning, added to the extremely well backed up arguments on this post caused me to have a complete change of heart on this matter and get to believe Milotic is a broken son of a bitch. What a boss.
On a more realistic world, where bans aren't justified due to some player having problems with A but not with B or C, therefore A is broken; this says absolutely nothing.
Edit: After reading the post below mine, I rest my case and say clueless posts come from clueless people.
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