Abomasnow Anti-Lead

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Zelaurion

This moveset has probably been suggested before in the past, but I have tested this set quite thoroughly on the OU ladder over the last few days, and it works rather well. So, without further ado, Anti-Lead Abomasnow.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/abomasnow

name: Anti-Lead
Move 1: Ice Shard
Move 2: Blizzard
Move 3: Earthquake / Magic Coat
Move 4: Grass Knot / Magic Coat
Item: Focus Sash
Nature: Mild / Rash
EVs: 252 Atk, 252 SpA, 4 Spe

The Attack and Special Attack EVs are chosen to maximise damage output. Grass Knot is used to OHKO lead Swampert and to severely dent Tyranitar switch-ins, while Earthquake allows Abomasnow to 1HKO or 2HKO all Heatran switch-ins (OHKOing Choice variants 100% of the time, and 2HKOing even the most bulky variants). Earthquake will also deal decent damage to most Tyranitar variants, however Grass Knot is more powerful against anything but the most specially bulky variants. Magic Coat is listed as an option because it helps to deal with status leads, such as Roserade and Smeargle.

Some of the leads that this Abomasnow can beat outright are listed here:

- 4HP/minDef/minSpD Azelf: Blizzard + Ice Shard KOs 100% of the time, without even having to factor in the Hail damage.
- min/min/min Dragonite: Ice Shard nets a clean OHKO, and Abomasnow should even be able to keep it's Focus Sash intact against the standard 4 Speed + Quiet natured lead.
- Aerodactyl: Ice Shard will 2HKO 100% of the time factoring in one round of Hail damage. Ice Shard is used instead of Blizzard to avoid flinching by the likes of Rock Slide or Fire Fang.
- Swampert: Grass Knot will OHKO 100% of the time; however, if you are not running Grass Knot, Blizzard will more often than not only get a 3HKO.
- Roserade: Magic Coat can reflect the inevitable Sleep Powder right back, which will cause most to switch out. However, the Hail will break its Sash, leaving it vulnerable when it next switches in.
- Smeargle: As above, but Smeargle does not have Natural Cure, making Magic Coat an amazing counter to it.
- Hippowdon: Hippowdon is slower than Abomasnow, so the Sandstorm will prevail over Hail; however, Grass Knot will OHKO any Hippowdon that does not significantly invest in Special Defense and HP.
- Tyranitar: Lead Tyranitar outspeeds Abomasnow, meaning that Hail will prevail over Sandstorm. Grass Knot will OHKO low-bulk variants around 90% of the time, and even bulky variants with significant HP investment (such as Choice Band) are KO'd 100% of the time by Grass Knot + Ice Shard.
Also, Choice Scarf + Trick leads are often beaten by Abomasnow, as if they decide to use Trick, the Focus Sash they receive from you will be rendered useless by the Hail, and Abomasnow can 2HKO most (such as Jirachi with Earthquake, Uxie with Blizzard, etc.)

Common leads that Abomasnow should watch out for include Metagross, Jirachi, Infernape and Machamp. Metagross outspeeds Abomasnow, and can easily 2HKO through the Sash with Bullet Punch. Abomasnow's Earthquake in return does less than 50% damage to the standard bulky lead Metagross. A Levitate Bronzong is a great switch-in to lead Metagross, as it resists Meteor Mash, Bullet Punch and Explosion, and is immune to Earthquake. Bronzong can then set up on Metagross with support moves such as Reflect, Light Screen and Stealth Rock.
Lead Choice Scarf Jirachi can easily 2HKO Abomasnow with Iron Head through the Focus Sash, with a 60% chance that Abomasnow will not even get to retaliate. As with Metagross, Bronzong can switch into Jirachis attacks easily and set up, although it should watch out for Trick.
Infernape leads lacking a priority move are defeated 100% of the time by Earthquake + Ice Shard, factoring in the Hail damage after the first turn; however, lead Infernapes often carry Fake Out or Vacuum Wave, both of which cause Abomasnow to be defeated.
The standard Machamp lead can easily 2HKO with Bullet Punch, however it often uses DynamicPunch first, which means the confusion status can be reflected back at Machamp. If Machamp hurts itself in confusion, Blizzard + 2 rounds of Hail damage + self-damage will KO 100% of the time.



Edited following comments and further investigation 15/8/2010
 
the 88 Speed EVs allow Abomasnow to outspeed lead Dragonite and nab an easy OHKO with Ice Shard
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Why would you need speed then...to outrun Extremespeed or something?
Aside from that, pack a spinner like Tentacruel because you aren't actually stopping most common leads from actually setting up rocks.
 
Common Tyranitar leads outspeed Abomasnow, therefore cancelling out the precious Hail with a Sandstorm.
Click to expand...
Since Tyranitar outspeeds the hail should summoned instead of sand storm. This actually looks kind of cool, I can see it having both early and midgame use if played properly, but I'm going to hold off on this for now because I'm not sure because...

Machamp (probably?) beats you.
Infernape beats you.
Azelf can u-turn out and break your sash.
Metagross beats you.
Jirachi beats you.

hmmmmmmm
 
Hi,

Eh I think Sandstorm will prevail because Hippowdon is slower since Sand Stream will activate after Snow Warning. You should also go for Blizzard first against Aerodactyl instead of Ice Sharding twice. Though to be honest Abomasnow doesn't match up well against many leads and on non-hail teams it would be vastly inferior to a Machamp or Dragonite or something.

Nevertheless.. Infernape, Heatran, Machamp, Jirachi all pose significant threats as well, so something like a Swampert would probably make the best partner to this set - walling 3 out of those 4 along with Tyranitar and Metagross while setting up Stealth Rock since Abomasnow can't do that.
 
ARandomDude said:
Why would you need speed then...to outrun Extremespeed or something?
Click to expand...
EDIT: I'm sorry, I miscalculated; Dragonite is not OHKO'd by Ice Shard, so the extra speed EVs should be put into Attack, to help KO Infernape and Colbur Berry Azelf leads with Ice Shard, who are rarely KO'd with the previous spread. I've never come across a Dragonite lead who stayed in is why I got this wrong; I simply assumed Ice Shard would OHKO, which it doesn't. Blizzard does, however.
Machamp (probably?) beats you.
Infernape beats you.
Azelf can u-turn out and break your sash.
Metagross beats you.
Jirachi beats you.
Click to expand...
All of the leads above do usually beat Abomasnow; however, Azelf is usally brave enough to stay in and set up Stealth Rock on the first turn (or simply uses Fire Blast instead), meaning Abomasnow is free to try for the KO. Also, Machamp can be defeated with a little luck and Magic Coat, which reflects the confusion caused by DynamicPunch, and Blizzard will KO with 2 rounds of Hail damage and if Machamp hurts itself in confusion. Ironic, no?
Infernape carrying Fake Out will always defeat Abomasnow; however if it sets up Stealth Rock or attacks, Earthquake + Hail damage + Ice Shard will KO more than 75% of the time. I carry a Tentacruel Rapid Spinner on my team to take care of Infernape threats, as Surf will easily OHKO after Infernape's Sash has been broken by the Hail, and Tentacruel resists all of the moves commonly carried by lead Infernape.
 
But, in fact, what is the point of playing Abomasnow as a suicide lead ? With a metagame full of TyraScarf, the Hail will be - almost everytime - canceled in mid-game and you will not be able to put the Hail a second time if you have lost your Abomasnow at the beginning of the battle...
 
Zelaurion said:
Also, Machamp can be defeated with a little luck and Magic Coat, which reflects the confusion caused by DynamicPunch, and Blizzard will KO with 2 rounds of Hail damage and if Machamp hurts itself in confusion. Ironic, no?
Infernape carrying Fake Out will always defeat Abomasnow; however if it sets up Stealth Rock or attacks, Earthquake + Hail damage + Ice Shard will KO more than 75% of the time.
Click to expand...

You definitely have that wrong. Dynamicpunch is a damaging move which means Magic Coat won't reflect squat. Machamp will still beat you.
What LeadApe won't Fake Out here? So your Abomasnow beats Infernape if your opponent makes stupid plays right from the get-go.
 
I would be uncomfortable using a lead that loses to so much and doesn't accomplish anything significant other than sometimes killing the opposing lead.
 
Okay, looking at this, if you want to set up hail, this could be a good spread.
Nature: Brave / Quiet
EVs: 252 Atk, 4 Def, 252 SpA
IVs: 0 Spe
This way it will always be slower then natural 31 Spe (IV) Hippo, and always slower then Tyranitar. (Which means it can set up hail.)
So I think this spread should be in additional comments.
 
Fatecrashers said:
You definitely have that wrong. Dynamicpunch is a damaging move which means Magic Coat won't reflect squat. Machamp will still beat you.
What LeadApe won't Fake Out here? So your Abomasnow beats Infernape if your opponent makes stupid plays right from the get-go.
Click to expand...

I have not been in this exact situation, as when I see lead Machamp I generally tend to switch to Rotom, (or they tend to just use Bullet Punch twice when I have tried to test it) but I thought that Magic Coat reflected back any status ailment caused to the Pokemon during the turn it is used?
Also. Lead Infernape does not always carry Fake Out; some are the Endeavor Lead set (which falls to Earthquake + Hail damage) and others are more simple Taunt + Stealth Rock + 2 attacks leads, which go down to Earthquake + Ice Shard.
Okay, looking at this, if you want to set up hail, this could be a good spread.
Nature: Brave / Quiet
EVs: 252 Atk, 4 Def, 252 SpA
IVs: 0 Spe
This way it will always be slower then natural 31 Spe (IV) Hippo, and always slower then Tyranitar. (Which means it can set up hail.)
Click to expand...

I might just change the original set to this, and put the old spread in additional comments. Now that there is no need to outspeed lead Dragonite, it would be beneficial for Abomasnow to be as slow is at can be. The original set has it's uses, however; outspeeding lead Hippowdon, and Swampert for quick OHKOs (and preventing Stealth Rock setup).

I would be uncomfortable using a lead that loses to so much and doesn't accomplish anything significant other than sometimes killing the opposing lead.
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You're right, it is not the best lead in the game; however, it is not directly outclassed by anything as a lead, which is why I think it deserves a set. For example, no other Pokemon can OHKO lead Aerodactyl through the Focus Sash, or 2HKO Azelf while surviving every time and allowing it only 1 turn. Also, is not setting up Hail and breaking the opponent's leads Focus Sash significant? (Even if Abomasnow doesn't stay in itself to deal with the lead).
 
I'm considerably dubious about this lead. There are quite a few details to underline, and these are the following:

  • Azelf: The #1 lead at the moment, and while it is true that this Abomasnow can eliminate him via Blizzard + Ice Shard, Azelf can easily U-turn out dealing around 65% of damage (considering that Abomasnow is using a Mild nature), and come back later. Furthermore, Blizzard will never be an OHKO even on 0 HP Azelf, which means that after having set Stealth Rock, Azelf can switch out and return later on to Explode or whatever he feels like doing. Basically, you lose to this lead.
  • Machamp: It follows Azelf in the second position, and Abomasnow loses to it.
  • Metagross: Lead #4 in OU, and it not only kills off Abomasnow with MM, but can perfectly set up SR in the process as well.
  • Swampert: It stands in the fifth position in the leads table, and while Abomasnow outright kills it with GK, I really doubt that a smart player would just take the chances and hope that you're not running a Grass-type move. In short, if Swampert switches out (highly probable to happen), you lose.
  • Jirachi: The #6 lead nowadays, and we know what happens when Abomasnow faces it.
  • Infernape: Lead #7, and if it runs Fake Out, Abomasnow loses, while if it doesn't, you live.
  • Heatran: Honestly, you lose to this one. Every single Heatran lead packs a Shuca Berry, which means that your Earthquake will never kill it off. This gives Heatran the possibility of using two consecutive FB in order to eliminate Abomasnow, or SR + FB and you would end up with 1 HP point left.

This is a list involving seven of the most used leads at today's date, the ones that I feel the proposed Abomasnow has troubles with. The conclusions that I drew up make me think that this is not an effective Anti-lead. It's not only about "losing to the most common leads" out there, it's also about having the ability to prevent a starter from setting up a respective hazard, or force him to chose between attack you or make that hazard a reality. There are only a few Pokemon that are put under these terms that I underlined in my last sentence when facing your Abomasnow, which are: Aerodactyl; Roserade; Smeargle; Hippowdon; Gliscor. Moreover, forcing opposing anti-leads such as Starmie and Dragonite to switch out is not a "win" as you can imagine. Finally, just because I want to add extra information, there's Bronzong and Skarmory leads at the bottom of this list, who are Pokemon that Abomasnow struggles against.

The Pokemon that's in the OP of this thread presents too many problems as to merit its own set on the site, in my opinion.

QC REJECTED (1/3)
 
OK, thanks for your input Setsuna. In my experience using it, the only above leads that usually present a problem to Abomasnow are Metagross, Jirachi and Machamp; I have only seen one Heatran lead, and it used Stealth Rock first (probably assuming that I would switch). Often I switch out of Infernape leads, expecting it to have used Fake Out, and it has used Taunt or Fire Blast instead; what amount of Infernape used in the lead position carry Fake Out? (Or what page can I view to find out myself?)
Ultimately though, I am sure that you know more about the current metagame than I do, so I will not argue with your decision.
 
Lead apes carry Fake Out about 75% of the time. I'm guessing the reason they wouldn't use it (only viable reason?) is that they're not expecting sash, and you break they're sash at the same time with hail, so really no point in FOing.
Heatran, when you see it, is obviously going to be a problem if they attack, it's not a nullified threat just cause you personally don't see it to much, and when you did it SRed.
And either way, this thing is weak to a lot of common leads.
 
Setsuna. said:
  • Azelf: The #1 lead at the moment, and while it is true that this Abomasnow can eliminate him via Blizzard + Ice Shard, Azelf can easily U-turn out dealing around 65% of damage (considering that Abomasnow is using a Mild nature), and come back later. Furthermore, Blizzard will never be an OHKO even on 0 HP Azelf, which means that after having set Stealth Rock, Azelf can switch out and return later on to Explode or whatever he feels like doing. Basically, you lose to this lead.
Click to expand...
I have to disagree, most lead Azelf go for Stealth Rock first, that's the point of having lead Azelf, they set up Stealth Rock and die.

And while they set up the SR, a Blizzard followed by an Ice Shard will kill them unless they switch.

252 SpA Abomasnow vs. 0/0 Jolly Azelf using Blizzard: 71.5% - 84.5%
252 Atk Abomasnow vs. 0/0 Jolly Azelf using Ice Shard: 24.1% - 28.9%

(Even if Aze;f survived with very low health, Hail will kill it)

And Azelf leads rarely use U-Turn on Abomasnow, as they underestimate it and go for Stealth Rock and then Fire Blast assuming they have it.

I actually like this set, a lot, i'm gonna test it on my Hail team.
 
You appear not to understand what I've said, I'll go over it again.

1. Do you realize that one of the most common sets of Azelf nowadays is the one that uses the Colbur Berry and U-turn as one of its four moves, do you?

2. Blizzard + one turn of Hail damage will never kill Azelf, and Abomasnow cannot set up Stealth Rock, which means that Azelf, even if it's at 8%~ of health, can perfectly come back later on the game.

3. Read the rest of my analysis, and see why this lead cannot have its own set on the site.

If you are going to reply to this, I advise you to pay attention to what I'm saying, so that you won't misread anything.
 
I think Haldar actually summed up best why not to use this, but his post seems to have been ignored. If you are not running a Hail team, you would never consider running Abomasnow when there are plenty of more effective anti-leads out there. If you are running a hail team, you probably want to keep your Abomasnow alive, and try to take advantage of the hail by running a leech seed set.

A -Speed nature should definitely be used, if only to preserve Aboma's defenses. You should still outrun Swampert with minimal speed investment.

And I think it is fair to say that this lead at least ties with Azelf. The number of U-turn Azelf leads is surprisingly low actually (Setsuna I think you play too many good players - U-turn is at about 30% and Colbur at 10% according to the latest stats), and the number that would actually use it even lower. The reason you have to worry about U-turn azelf is that it often lives two hits thanks to some investment in defenses, and can therefore often set up SR before U-turning out.
 
don't mean to chime in but blizzard does indeed have a chance at ohkoing 0 hp azelf - 88.7% - 104.8%. take note that i have derived the most popular nature in the latest statistics thread and the calcs displayed right now is at naive nature. naive nature is currently (37.7%) in usage. however, the point is still rather moot as setsuna already explains why it doesn't merit a place in the analysis. just thought i'd point out this little thing.
 
I agree with both of you guys, and I should have been more specific. My calcs were for both neutral SpD and Colbur Azelf. Obviously, I should've included the most used nature as well. In any case, and just to point it out, this doesn't create a brutal difference in the Azelf vs. Abomasnow scenario, IMO.
 
Setsuna said:
You appear not to understand what I've said, I'll go over it again.

1. Do you realize that one of the most common sets of Azelf nowadays is the one that uses the Colbur Berry and U-turn as one of its four moves, do you?

2. Blizzard + one turn of Hail damage will never kill Azelf, and Abomasnow cannot set up Stealth Rock, which means that Azelf, even if it's at 8%~ of health, can perfectly come back later on the game.

3. Read the rest of my analysis, and see why this lead cannot have its own set on the site.

If you are going to reply to this, I advise you to pay attention to what I'm saying, so that you won't misread anything.
Click to expand...

I guess your right, my calculations were on a standard lead Azelf, i just did a calculation on a Colbur Berry lead Azelf and turned out it'll do a total of 75-80% damage using Blizzard, Ice Shard and hail damage too.
 
It'd be nice if a couple of QCers could check out the OP of this thread and review the information that I posted in my rejection? Thanks :)
 
i actually faced some leads like this on ladder a few days ago and it never accomplished anything


QC REJECTED (3/3)
 
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