Yeah, I guess you could call both Aero and Ambipom "momentum leads." Their purpose is to accumulate offensive momentum, but so often they are misused and they just end up dead for no reason.
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NP: UU - Silent Night
- Thread starter reachzero
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This. I don't think I've used Milotic very much since Roserade and Honchkrow were in UU together. I know it's probably the best pokemon in UU, but I just never find myself needing to use it. I also agree with the rest of your post (the 'meh'-ness of CBAzu and Ambipom).
@UU-> NU changes:
-UU: Manectric, possibly Espeon (doubt it though), possibly Hippopotas
-NU: Absol, Poliwrath (seriously who uses this?), Nidoking
And next month is tier changes for OU and UU right? Does anyone see Uxie going into OU? That would be something huge.
Venusaur and Vileplume are similar Pokemon. They possess the same typing and similar stats and movepools. Venusaur outclasses Vileplume in terms of stats, and its movepool is far superior save for lack of Aromatherapy. There is therefore a direct correlation between their usages. Venusaur will practically be used more often than Vileplume. This is the type of correlation I am referring to. This either does or does not apply to the comparison of Venusaur and Moltres. If they are similar enough to be compared, Moltres is inferior according to usage stats; if they are dissimilar, then usage stats do not have a correlation. You are arguing that they are similar, so we have to accept the first point.
You have no proof that the stats are invalid. Yes, the ladder is inundated with "bad players"; yes, the stats would probably be more indicative of the competitive metagame if they were weighted. But do you really think that Moltres would outrank Venusaur in usage if stats were weighted?
Anyway, the crux of the argument is being derailed here. You may choose to ignore the stats, but you still cannot justify your comparison with:
The overriding similarities - "bulky, hard to switch into, and special sweepers" - are invalid. They are subjective and barely descriptive. "Bulky" fails to touch on Moltres's Stealth Rock weakness and what it can switch into. "Hard to switch into" does not address what can and cannot switch into either. " "Special sweepers" does not address how they play and how they sweep (also part of the "hard to switch into" part).
I'm basing it off of the definition of a good player: if a person doesn't take steps to cover a prominent threat, he's probably not a good player. I'm not sure what the second point is meant to imply - plus, it has been possible in each phase of UU to make teams that sufficiently addressed each of the suspects, anyway.
Oh I see;
OU = Roserade
UU = Venasaur
NU = Vileplume
I like that balance.
OU = Roserade
UU = Venasaur
NU = Vileplume
I like that balance.
There are plenty of reasons why that's wrong, but first and foremost: Stealth Rock. It's like saying "Ambipom is just like Aero minus the one thing that makes it good." Even with the offensive momentum of Fake Out and Uturn, it simply cannot compare to getting SR up early with absolutely no risks, functioning as a potent anti-lead without even doing anything, and without sacrificing any damage potential.
Has anyone else used a Specs Omastar lead?? With 540 Special Attack (Factoring in HP Grass), he destroys everything that doesn't resist it apart from Chansey. The number of Ambipom Taunting me and getting OHKO'd is just hilarious. It 2HKOs your standard Uxie lead as well, which is pretty awesome too. Hydro Pump (Or Surf)/Ice Beam/HP Grass/Spikes is the set I'm using. It's so fun just blasting shit with it.
Instead of Specs, i used Scarf Omastar (and outside the lead position as well).
It did great, because it lured many pokes to attack just to meet a Hydro Pump on their faces (or Ice Beam, if i predict Venusaur switches).
Even with a Timid Nature Hydro Pump could 2HKO offensive Leafeon, just to see that Omastar has very nice power.
It did great, because it lured many pokes to attack just to meet a Hydro Pump on their faces (or Ice Beam, if i predict Venusaur switches).
Even with a Timid Nature Hydro Pump could 2HKO offensive Leafeon, just to see that Omastar has very nice power.
That actually sounds... really viable 0_0
Out of curiosity, how much does surf do to uxie? Does it still 2HKO?
If you're looking for the hottest new gimmick, you should try Specs Blastoise instead. In addition to having a better typing, speed, and not being weak to most of the tier, its damage output with Water Spout is just outrageous. Matter of fact:
vs. that very same Uxie: 67.8% - 79.9%
vs. Lead Tomb: 93.4% - 110.3%
vs. Registeel: 47.8% - 56.3%
vs. Venusaur: 49.8% - 58.8% (possibly OHKOed with a critical hit!)
I used this as a lead briefly until Ambipom started pissing me off. That's probably one of the only two tangible benefits Omastar would offer over this guy (safeguarding for Rain is another).
Defensive Uxie isn't faster and neither is Mesprit. If you know the lead is faster and can take a good chunk out of you, you can abuse your Torrent Surf to either KO anyway, or at least take a huge chunk out of them.
Also, let's not forget that half the appeal of this set is shock value. Most opponents won't know to fear the offensive potential of a Blastoise, so they'll either set up what they want, switch to something that else that can, or just attack outright; every one of those situations presents a potential win for Blastoise, depending on how well you gauge the set of whatever your going up against.
Then again, you do have Water-immune Pokemon like Croak and Poliwrath switching in, which shouldn't be an issue because they're not entirely difficult Pokemon to counter in the first place. Just prepare for them like you would anything else.
Also, let's not forget that half the appeal of this set is shock value. Most opponents won't know to fear the offensive potential of a Blastoise, so they'll either set up what they want, switch to something that else that can, or just attack outright; every one of those situations presents a potential win for Blastoise, depending on how well you gauge the set of whatever your going up against.
Then again, you do have Water-immune Pokemon like Croak and Poliwrath switching in, which shouldn't be an issue because they're not entirely difficult Pokemon to counter in the first place. Just prepare for them like you would anything else.
You are making it seem that Pokemon are black and white. You're suggesting that they are either almost exactly the same, or not even remotely close to being similar at all. In any event, I'll address your point.
If we were to use the usage stats as somewhat of an accurate portrayal of which Pokemon are best, we would need to take into account competition for a spot on the team. Venusaur and Moltres never compete for a spot on a team. They are different types, and can switch into different threats. However, Arcanine and Moltres compete for spots. Arcanine is used a shit ton, so Moltres is used less than Venusaur. Arcanine is (for the sake of this argument at least, assuming you're "right" about stats being valid indicators of what's good) the best Fire-type Sweeper, so naturally it will be used more than Moltres. Venusaur on the other hand does not need to compete for a spot on a team most of the time, because it's the best Grass-type (again, if we accept that stats are valid).
Eo Ut Mortus said:
You're missing the point completely. I am not trying to emphasize the quality of player (though it is low...) on the ladder. I am trying to point out what stats are. They are not a power-meter. Server statistics are a list of sets that people use. The only (read: only) thing you can logically deduce from this is which sets are most common. There are so so many variables to consider when looking at a Pokemon's stats that it's impossible to prove that people use solely the best Pokemon...namely because it's not true. People use whatever Pokemon fits in their team for their strategy, and not all good Pokemon have synergy with one another (for example, Pokemon like Spiritomb and Mismagius don't go too well together).
Eo Ut Mortus said:
They are completely valid and describe the similarities of the Pokemon in question. I may not have 100% defined those terms, but that's because they have mostly well-known and understood definitions. You know that "bulky" means "can switch in, take a hit, and not be killed". Hard to switch into is pretty straightforward. It means that they, either through Sleep Powder or insanely good coverage and power are both very hard to find a switch-in for. And Special Sweepers is quite obviously a Pokemon who tries to beat the opponent with powerful special attacks.
Anyway, you keep suggesting that I'm ignoring stealth rock and other things when comparing the two Pokemon. This is simply untrue.
First of all, bulky is completely including Moltres's Stealth Rock weakness. It can still switch into every Earthquake, which is the most common attack in the metagame. Additionally, it takes far less than 50% from most NVE attacks (ie Leaf Storm). Moltres also has Roost, and can find plenty of opportunities to use it (like against most Arcanine and Sceptile). Venusaur has Synthesis but only 8 PP and doesn't work in weather.
Second, hard to switch into includes everything about Venusaur. Yes, I'm saying that Moltres is hard to switch into for different reasons than Venusaur, but they both are, when it comes down to it, very hard to switch a Pokemon into. That's the bottom line. Yes, I know Venusaur has Sleep Powder, but against an offensive team, Moltres using Fire Blast is probably harder to switch into than something using Sleep Powder simply because Fire Blast removes a Pokemon from the match, while Sleep Powder only temporarily removes them. You also need to consider Moltres's Speed. Venusaur is slow as balls, and Moltres can outpace the huge amount of Pokemon between base 80 and 90.
Uxie hardly runs Grass Knot on its set (It's relegated to "Other" on the stats), while it it doesn't OHKO anyway, due to how piss-weak Uxie is. Mesprit carries GK a lot more often, but why the hell would you keep Omastar in against Mesprit anyway?? Stop being so pessimistic, mate.
My period of playing the actual game and not just reading the forums is over, due to having to go back to University and the firewall on their internet. So I'm going to share what I've found to be a very succesful pokemon this metagame.
I enjoy a challenge so tried to make the leaderboard with a team built solely of NU's. ( I got very close with a final CRE around 1530)
On this team I used the following Exeggutor, and found it was able to rip apart massive holes in the current meta's typical cores.
Exeggutor@ Lifeorb
252Sp.atk/ 4Sp.def/ 252Spd
Modest Nature (+Sp.Atk,-Atk)
- Sleep Powder
- Sunny Day
- Solar Beam
- HP Fire
I enjoy a challenge so tried to make the leaderboard with a team built solely of NU's. ( I got very close with a final CRE around 1530)
On this team I used the following Exeggutor, and found it was able to rip apart massive holes in the current meta's typical cores.
Exeggutor@ Lifeorb
252Sp.atk/ 4Sp.def/ 252Spd
Modest Nature (+Sp.Atk,-Atk)
- Sleep Powder
- Sunny Day
- Solar Beam
- HP Fire
I prefer pscyhic and sleep powder over sunny day and HP fire on execute but it is indeed an interesting pokemon. On another note I have been using LO Medicham and the think is a monster. With great coverage and incredible attack I am hoping to see this guy and tauros break the UU tier. I figure it would take medicham off of NU hands as I can only imagine how effective he is down there.
He has Sleep Powder listed so basically you just prefer Psychic over Sunny Day. Unless you meant Synthesis. I ran Exeggutor for a while but dropped him because he just can't perform the bulky switch in role as well as Venusaur does. He's a lot harder to switch into than Venusaur, but still gets cockblocked by Registeel.
It still sucked to get surprised by Grass Knot from Uxie and by 5-6. I felt like I was seeing it every game but maybe that's just because I used Omastar back when Froslass had just left the tier and everybody was looking for a hazard abuser replacement and Uxie had to temporarily adjust. And I'm not being pessimistic, I'm just saying the benefits of getting hazards from Omastar doesn't outweigh his cons for me.
Actually, under Sun and with that spread standard Registeel takes 49.5% - 58.8% Damage from HP Fire, basically a guaranteed 2HKO with entry hazards, and even without in some cases. Hardly a cockblock.
It is a 2HKO on Regi in the sun. Venu and Milo are both also OHKO'd by SolarBeam and HP fire respectively.
The only problem with choosing those two moves is that they make Exeggutor completely useless against Fire types. Personally, If I was going for a stand alone Sunny Day sweeper to blast holes in a team, it would be Tangrowth. It has better defensive stats, more balanced Attacking stats, a better movepool (both Attack and Special Attack), and, quite possibly the best reason to use it, it gets Earthquake.
The first obstacle grass sweepers come up against is Registeel/ other Steel, followed by a Fire type. EQ deals with both. I would probably run something like this.
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Tangrowth (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 200 Atk/156 Spd/154 SAtk
Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Sunny Day
- Power Whip/ Solarbeam/ Leaf Storm
- Earthquake
- Ancientpower/ Rock Slide
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The EV's allow it to outrun Max Speed Swellow under the sun, and maximise both attacking stats, with slightly more in Atk since it is the lower of the two. EQ is a given, and the Grass type move depends on what you want. Power Whip's 85% Acc just screams "I will fail you at the most crucial of times", while Solarbeam means it will have a hard time working without sun. Leaf Storm seems like the best bet if you were going to run Rock Slide over Ancientpower since its the only attack that is Special, so the two stage drop wouldn't be a big deal. Personally, I would use Ancientpower, since the idea of Tangrowth's stats skyrocketing randomly would be too much for me to resist. Oh, and Rock Slide sucks.
In response to Eo:
While you are correct in asserting that you did not directly incorporate the stated bias into your Venusaur nomination, the bias is present, indirectly injected by the discrepancy that I have addressed. At this point I would like to point out that there are two forms of bias. The first is bias that arises from experience, where you find a Pokemon to be BL or UU because you have simply experienced it in a certain way, as being either “easy” or “difficult” to take on. This phenomenon is natural and cannot be accounted for, as others have pointed out. The second form of bias is bias that arises from the systemic nature in which you handle the threat under discussion--i.e. your stylistic response to it. This type of bias is very obvious and should be eliminated. The differences between the two forms of bias are subtle, but I would categorize the discrepancy I am discussing here as belonging to the latter classification. Moreover, by trying to justify said discrepancy with your playstyle, you have acknowledged that you are aware of the bias. Your awareness is in fact one of the issues that concern me--to possess systemic bias is one matter; to be aware of it without attempting to eliminate it is another.
As whistle has pointed out, bias (in general) is unavoidable, and it would not make sense to “adjust” your vote for playstyle bias. For this reason, I am not suggesting that you should have voted Raikou UU in order to account for your systemic playstyle bias--nor am I suggesting that you should have refrained from voting because of it. Actually, the discrepancy I am discussing lies less between your vote and your nomination and more between the arguments you have used in each.
In your nomination for Venusaur, you suggest (or, rather, explicitly state) that Venusaur’s versatility makes it difficult to handle because, more or less, one must be prepared for different sets despite each set possessing definite counters; in your vote for Raikou (as BL), you suggest that Raikou’s versatility does not matter because once the specific set being run is known, it is counterable. These two arguments differ so fundamentally from one another that they cannot be reconciled. Thus, I am inclined to view your bias as systemic rather than as having been derived from your experiences (I have no doubt that the latter has a hand as well, however).
I was, prior to your first post regarding this matter, willing to dismiss the discrepancy as having arisen from a change of heart; after your justification, however, I am no longer sure that I can do so. I do not think you can justify the discrepancy between the Raikou vote and the Venusaur nomination as a matter of playstyle. You are basically admitting a bias in the way of “I want this out of my way” instead of “well I haven’t had issues with it.” The line is fairly obscure and narrow, and I am sure you can (and will) disagree with my assertion, but--especially in light of your statement that “Milotic is better than Venusaur” in conjunction with your failure to nominate Milotic--I am convinced that what I have said is in fact true.
Falling back on the idea that “the same arguments have been made” does not remove bias from your justification; doing so simply points out that yours is a common bias. The problems are obvious: on the issue of the process, systemic bias, regardless of its association with the norm, should be minimized; and on the issue of the process’ implementation, your particular argument carries more weight because of your status as a well-known poster, a leaderboard-level battler, and, above all, a voter. This issue also cannot be classified as personal because of your level of involvement with the suspect-testing process. Both your nomination and your vote carry a significant amount of weight for different reasons (your nomination because of your aforementioned status and your vote because of the low number of votes that were cast).
I do not want to comment further on this issue as there is no significant point to--or strong incentive for--doing so, but if you wish, I will elaborate on my position.
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Topic of CB Azumarill: I've found it to be better than the Leftovers set. Base 150 Atk is nice, but not nice enough that a boosting item wouldn't make it better. Rhyperior has more power overall thanks to its STABs, but Rhyperior always runs Choice Band or Life Orb. I don't see why Azumarill, especially with a priority attack, should be treated much differently (inb4RhyperiorcannotbecomparedbecauseofXYZ).
While you are correct in asserting that you did not directly incorporate the stated bias into your Venusaur nomination, the bias is present, indirectly injected by the discrepancy that I have addressed. At this point I would like to point out that there are two forms of bias. The first is bias that arises from experience, where you find a Pokemon to be BL or UU because you have simply experienced it in a certain way, as being either “easy” or “difficult” to take on. This phenomenon is natural and cannot be accounted for, as others have pointed out. The second form of bias is bias that arises from the systemic nature in which you handle the threat under discussion--i.e. your stylistic response to it. This type of bias is very obvious and should be eliminated. The differences between the two forms of bias are subtle, but I would categorize the discrepancy I am discussing here as belonging to the latter classification. Moreover, by trying to justify said discrepancy with your playstyle, you have acknowledged that you are aware of the bias. Your awareness is in fact one of the issues that concern me--to possess systemic bias is one matter; to be aware of it without attempting to eliminate it is another.
As whistle has pointed out, bias (in general) is unavoidable, and it would not make sense to “adjust” your vote for playstyle bias. For this reason, I am not suggesting that you should have voted Raikou UU in order to account for your systemic playstyle bias--nor am I suggesting that you should have refrained from voting because of it. Actually, the discrepancy I am discussing lies less between your vote and your nomination and more between the arguments you have used in each.
In your nomination for Venusaur, you suggest (or, rather, explicitly state) that Venusaur’s versatility makes it difficult to handle because, more or less, one must be prepared for different sets despite each set possessing definite counters; in your vote for Raikou (as BL), you suggest that Raikou’s versatility does not matter because once the specific set being run is known, it is counterable. These two arguments differ so fundamentally from one another that they cannot be reconciled. Thus, I am inclined to view your bias as systemic rather than as having been derived from your experiences (I have no doubt that the latter has a hand as well, however).
I was, prior to your first post regarding this matter, willing to dismiss the discrepancy as having arisen from a change of heart; after your justification, however, I am no longer sure that I can do so. I do not think you can justify the discrepancy between the Raikou vote and the Venusaur nomination as a matter of playstyle. You are basically admitting a bias in the way of “I want this out of my way” instead of “well I haven’t had issues with it.” The line is fairly obscure and narrow, and I am sure you can (and will) disagree with my assertion, but--especially in light of your statement that “Milotic is better than Venusaur” in conjunction with your failure to nominate Milotic--I am convinced that what I have said is in fact true.
Falling back on the idea that “the same arguments have been made” does not remove bias from your justification; doing so simply points out that yours is a common bias. The problems are obvious: on the issue of the process, systemic bias, regardless of its association with the norm, should be minimized; and on the issue of the process’ implementation, your particular argument carries more weight because of your status as a well-known poster, a leaderboard-level battler, and, above all, a voter. This issue also cannot be classified as personal because of your level of involvement with the suspect-testing process. Both your nomination and your vote carry a significant amount of weight for different reasons (your nomination because of your aforementioned status and your vote because of the low number of votes that were cast).
I do not want to comment further on this issue as there is no significant point to--or strong incentive for--doing so, but if you wish, I will elaborate on my position.
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Topic of CB Azumarill: I've found it to be better than the Leftovers set. Base 150 Atk is nice, but not nice enough that a boosting item wouldn't make it better. Rhyperior has more power overall thanks to its STABs, but Rhyperior always runs Choice Band or Life Orb. I don't see why Azumarill, especially with a priority attack, should be treated much differently (inb4RhyperiorcannotbecomparedbecauseofXYZ).
If you're running in the sun, you're not gonna have Sleep Powder. Unless you're running the coverage of Grass/Fire. Then that's just a joke.
And obviously, in my post about being cockblocked by Registeel, I was talking about a sunny-less HPfire-less Exeggutor.
hmm...interesting predictions.
Spiritomb (and to a lesser extent Rotom) seems to be getting a lot more use so Kanga has even more worth than she previously did and I have noticed a slight increase in them on the ladder too so you could be right there.
Manectric has a long list serious drawbacks (can't switch in, is KO'd by just about anything, priority rapes him, status ends him, useless against stall, duggy gets him) but his Electric/Fire/Grass coverage means a lot of teams really struggle to switch into him and with 105 Spe he's a potent revenge killer. imo he deserves to make it to UU but if he does it'll be by the skin of his teeth.
I haven't saw many Poliwrath but I have saw a lot of Rain teams so he might just stay in UU off the back of that.
Absol sucks, as ever, but he always has a certain level of fanboy support and can be dangerous against teams that don't have enough ways to block Sucker Punch. Pursuit is quite handy in this metagame too and his is the strongest. I think he'll keep his UU status.
@ Eggy talk; he's a decent 'mon for sure (use Yache Berry to seriously fuck up Rain teams heh) but SpD Arcanine is all the rage now and stops him cold, not to mention using Eggy means you probably won't be able to use Venusaur, who is to a little too good to overlook for most teams.
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