It seems Ditto only transforms once each time it enters the field, so there's no way that could possibly happen, nor any reason the situation would trigger it.
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Ditto
- Thread starter Emperor
- Start date
Although Ditto will be an awesome revenge killer and will hopefully keep some stat uppers from going TOO crazy, I think that sending it straight to Ubers is a bit overboard.
First of all, I'm pretty sure Ditto doesn't copy other Pokemon's item boosts. So no double choice scarf boosts, or insane +3 Earthquake Spiral Salamance Dittos with boosts from band and scarf.
Secondly, Ditto only gets 5 PP and is locked into one move. He CAN'T sweep 6-0 (or even 5-0) because he will run out of PP. Yes, Ditto may be able to get a good one ortwo KOs in before he's forced out or KO'd itself, but it won't completely wreck the opponents team unless it was weakened to the point where any lategame sweeper can finish up the job.
Third, Ditto can't really switch into these +3/+3 without being blasted the turn he comes in. Yes, he'll have the defenses of a Salamence/Gyrados, but I still doubt it'd like to take a Stone Edge/Outrage from that massive attack.
First of all, I'm pretty sure Ditto doesn't copy other Pokemon's item boosts. So no double choice scarf boosts, or insane +3 Earthquake Spiral Salamance Dittos with boosts from band and scarf.
Secondly, Ditto only gets 5 PP and is locked into one move. He CAN'T sweep 6-0 (or even 5-0) because he will run out of PP. Yes, Ditto may be able to get a good one ortwo KOs in before he's forced out or KO'd itself, but it won't completely wreck the opponents team unless it was weakened to the point where any lategame sweeper can finish up the job.
Third, Ditto can't really switch into these +3/+3 without being blasted the turn he comes in. Yes, he'll have the defenses of a Salamence/Gyrados, but I still doubt it'd like to take a Stone Edge/Outrage from that massive attack.
Ditto copies the opponents stats upon transforming, so if he switches in after a kill, he'll have any boosts the opponent had as well as the boost from his Choice Scarf
Theoretically
So I don't see where the item boost copying thing comes in, or the whole bit about taking hits (as if he'd be switching into an attack)
But I pretty much agree with everything else though~
Theoretically
So I don't see where the item boost copying thing comes in, or the whole bit about taking hits (as if he'd be switching into an attack)
But I pretty much agree with everything else though~
I hate to say it, because its been said like 20 times. But Vakama. Your 3rd point... REVENGE KILLER. He comes in AFTER a pokemon dies. WHY THE HELL would you send him in front of an attack? Let him come in after the death of one of your own.
This literally needs to be written in capital bolded letters and bright colors on the first post because everyone keeps saying that same issue. "lol send ditto in while my gyara is using dd, now your plan is flawed." Yeah. If I am an idiot and don't know how to revenge kill correctly.
This literally needs to be written in capital bolded letters and bright colors on the first post because everyone keeps saying that same issue. "lol send ditto in while my gyara is using dd, now your plan is flawed." Yeah. If I am an idiot and don't know how to revenge kill correctly.
That's why you don't send out Ditto against those types of Pokemon, and only save it for the opponent's sweepers.
Also, if you're using a Caterpie, then I think you've wasted more than your opponent's turn.
Actually, this ability makes it so that even revenge killing isn't always necessary, since Ditto can use the defenses, resistances, and immunities of the Pokemon it's switching into to ease the damage of the attack if you predict correctly. Not too easy to rely on, especially against boosted opponents and when taking Ditto's low HP into account, and when you consider that if Ditto can copy one of the Pokemon's moves to use against it effectively, that Pokemon can use the same move against Ditto to just as great effect. So you have to be careful, but it's still a great option to have, perhaps in other situations as more of a standard Choice Scarf counter. For example, it can absorb Heatran's Fire moves and counter with Earth Power just like any other Heatran.
Also, Ditto has enough PP to sweep a full team if it copies something with Outrage, although the confusion might be a problem. However, teams don't stay full the entire battle, and Ditto probably won't be one of the first Pokemon you send out.
Also, Ditto has enough PP to sweep a full team if it copies something with Outrage, although the confusion might be a problem. However, teams don't stay full the entire battle, and Ditto probably won't be one of the first Pokemon you send out.
Sweeper: The idea I had though was to HAVE a fast sweeper out. Let Ditto come in thinking he can switch in as you set up (because apparently this is the best some people can do) and send in something that is entirely NOT sweeper. If it's scarfed, it either has it is now switch the f*** out of there or get stuck using a non-attack move forever. Personally, I think Umbreon makes a GREAT counter to Scarfed Ditto if you can predict the switch: Mean Look, Torment(if you want it to struggle), Baton Pass (so you can escape if it Mean Looks: this doesn't help Ditto since it's Scarfed and already faster. Thus if it uses BP, Mean Look isn't set up and it could have already switched). DON'T Run Taunt because than Ditto can un-counter you.
Actually:
Umbreon @ Lefties/Chople Berry
Careful
EVs: 252 HP/128 SDef/TBD
Mean Look (Trap Ditto: always first move)
Baton Pass (Escape Dittos that try to Mean Look you; doesn't help Ditto escape since it could always just switch before you set up Mean Look; also allows you to switch to an attack and kill Ditto since this set has NO means of inflicting damage)
Protect (For other Pokes: A Ditto locked into Protect might stall but it will eventually fail)
Yawn (I guess this could be used to annoy you, but it's not really a big deal, imo.)
This set is STILL screwed over by Taunt though.
Something like that can cripple Ditto if you predict the switch.
Caterpie: Hence the "less viable" part. More for "I'm just screwing with you" kind of moment.
In game, by revealing a Pokemon's moveset you can also determine if it's hacked.
Ditto will just switch or Baton Pass before you use Mean Look, since it'll know your moveset and what you plan to do.
That could be part of your strategy. =/
If your opponent knows you have a plan in case Ditto comes out, won't they be more paranoid/careful? You could also use Something that has an ability that Traps to Revenge Kill Ditto after it revenge kills.
Oh, I see. But you would really have to predict/know that Ditto is coming in. If not, then you just wasted your boosts.
And if you're saving your sweeper for later, you're basically forcing them to save their Ditto for later as well, since you're making them switch. Then you'll just run into the same situation later on, except now they know the moveset of one of your different Pokemon.
Also, no one is going to switch in a ditto to an Umbreon. They would wait till someone sweeps... then they send in ditto for the revenge kill... if the enemy decides, "OH, TIME TO SEND IN UMBREON NOW on DITTO," then the ditto user will be like, "eff that, I am out of here."
I think this is the best way to counter ditto:
Kill enemy mon with something that is weak to ghost or fire... enemy sends in ditto. You send in that candle ghost pokemon with shadow tag. Kill him off immediately.
Or maybe even run knock off? I think that right there would mess up ditto heavily. Of course, it still keeps you at a speed tie, but still. Helpful, none the less.
I think this is the best way to counter ditto:
Kill enemy mon with something that is weak to ghost or fire... enemy sends in ditto. You send in that candle ghost pokemon with shadow tag. Kill him off immediately.
Or maybe even run knock off? I think that right there would mess up ditto heavily. Of course, it still keeps you at a speed tie, but still. Helpful, none the less.
The idea behind it was to predict the switch of someone who DOESN'T understand how revenge killing works (just count the people in the thread) to Ditto and switch to Umbreon. If they can't figure out how revenge killing works how will they figure out about how I plan to school them with Umbreon?
And again, Shanderaa/Dugtrio/any other Trapper can just revenge Kill Ditto.
Edit:I like the Knock Off idea.
But wouldn't the ditto users discussed here just let their Pokemon flounder around in front of the fast sweeper letting it set up without budging till it's dead? From their point of view they would sit there touching themselves while "Slamacomp" DDs and SDs a few times then you maracoiusly switch to umberon. Leaving one pokemon with an unfulfilled deathwish wondering why the hell you just wasted several turns of its miserable life.
That's hardly an effective competitive strategy.
I forgot Gyarados has Overconfidence. Ditto would be at a disadvantage in that situation.
And you're right: Ditto sweeps will virtually never happen to good players.
Honestly I can't understand why people are thinking up complex Ditto counter strategies. It's a revenge killer. If it stops a sweep, it did it's job. If it sweeps the rest of your team, that's your fault for being careless. Ditto will be something to consider, but it's not a huge threat unless you make it one by poor team design.
No, three turns. And then it can just switch out.
Pressure doesn't matter. It only takes one turn for him to force something out, at which point he sweeps as much as he can before switching.
Upon switching back in, he gains more PP.
Upon switching back in, he gains more PP.
Agreed. Counting on the incompetence of your enemy to be even further incompetent, that's kind of hard to do...
Also, @NDenizen:
Sure, pressure would mess him up, and thats true, it is a good counter... but not a hard counter... I am sure most smart players will not waste time with their ditto's vs a pokemon with pressure. And even then, switching still lets Ditto rinse and repeat non stop, with no fear of drop in PP.
However, I can see this being a tough thing for the team.
Ditto revenge kills, and is locked in on a stone edge. Enemy sends out Dusknoir, has pressure.
Choice? Switch out and risk being hit with will'o'wisp... or watch him pain split away the damage you do. That is, if he can handle the damage.
Ditto has all the right to have such a hype, but seriously it isn't going to be that hard to beat it. Although it knows your moveset, as such you know it's moveset making it predictable as hell, and locked in by choice scarf.
Lets take this situation for example: Your Lucario at +2 Atk takes out the opponent's Nuttree. Ditto comes in to revenge kill. It is obviously forced to Close Combat, no other move would take out your Lucario, so if you choose to stay in they lose Ditto for no reason. So guess what you do? You switch in Shanderaa, set up a sub, and get to +6 SpAtk/SpDef with CM. Obviously a textbook example, but you get the idea.
Lets take this situation for example: Your Lucario at +2 Atk takes out the opponent's Nuttree. Ditto comes in to revenge kill. It is obviously forced to Close Combat, no other move would take out your Lucario, so if you choose to stay in they lose Ditto for no reason. So guess what you do? You switch in Shanderaa, set up a sub, and get to +6 SpAtk/SpDef with CM. Obviously a textbook example, but you get the idea.
Who says competitive Ditto has to be limited by just using Choice Scarf? Slap a Shed Shell on it and you've got one of the best scouts in the game.
If you Baton Passed Agility into a Ditto whilst facing a boosted opponent, I can imagine it being a huge threat, outspeeding the enemy whilst having a choice of all moves. But then is there any reliable way of doing that without getting killed before a baton pass or having your Ditto crippled as it switches in?
If you can some how get a substitute off with out being taunted (or having the substitut break) with a Ninjask, you can just pass the speed boost from his ability to Ditto.
If you are sure your ditto can survive a hit, you can just run Ninjask, have him use protect on turn 1, and then baton pass on turn 2. I mean, its only a +1 to speed, but its enough to have you above your opponent...
Ditto can do something now :O I really see its potential in this gen.
Yes, but what if the Ditto user predicts the switch and OHKOs with Crunch? Obviously this would require crazy skills, but Ditto has now just taken out your 100% counter on a 50/50 chance; whether it'll choose CC or Crunch. Now I understand that this situation is different, in that the pokemon Ditto revenges can OHKO both your pokemon and the pokemon you switch in to absorb its attack, but the point is that Ditto can find a way to get past its "counters". 50/50 chance.