Chandelure

I was having this discussion on the Team Uber server, and I'm of the opinion that, IF shadow tag shanderaa is broken, it should be uber, and there should't be a "no shadow tag clause" for it. That's like saying, to use a gen 4 example, "ok, chomp can be ou, but only if it doesn't use sd".

Another thing. The weaker emo lady also get shadow tag. If there was this hypothetical "shadow tag clause" for shanderaa, and emo lady was found to be not broken with shadow tag, would she be allowed to run it?

Of course, this is all speculation. Who knows if shadow tag shanderaa will be uber or not? But to those suggesting letting shanderaa stay ou without shadow tag, let me remind you, its the POKEMON that get tiered, not their abilities.
 
yeah i agree. you cant just ban an ability on a pokemon that its entitled to because the game doesnt really ahve any gauraunteed wins the game willl adapt and i feel like people are forgetting exactly how poerful this generation as a whole is... there might be an uber tier mostly populated by normal pokemon

(and i cant wait for those smug jerks ho-oh and heatran to be taken down a peg... im hoping for BL!!)
 
Elfam said:
yeah i agree. you cant just ban an ability on a pokemon that its entitled to because the game doesnt really ahve any gauraunteed wins the game willl adapt and i feel like people are forgetting exactly how poerful this generation as a whole is... there might be an uber tier mostly populated by normal pokemon

(and i cant wait for those smug jerks ho-oh and heatran to be taken down a peg... im hoping for BL!!)
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Lolwut

ho-oh just got regenration AND 154 speed. if anything, its more uber than ever!
 
btb said:
What are you talking about? It's speed hasn't changed, it's still base 90. Still it's clearly Uber.
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I had heard that a couple of pokemon had their stats changed in the dream world as well as their abilities. It sounded rediculous to me as well, but i haven't yet heard it as debunked, so i still believed it. I would you direct you to where i saw this but i don't remember, except that it was on a thread in the "Uncharted Territory" section (aka this section). If I was misinformed, thank you for informing me... that i was misinformed >_>
 
The Speed thing was a Serebii error.

However, Ho-Oh is still monstrous and would almost certainly still be Uber without Regeneration. Now it's not even worth discussing.
 
doomvendingmachine said:
I was having this discussion on the Team Uber server, and I'm of the opinion that, IF shadow tag shanderaa is broken, it should be uber, and there should't be a "no shadow tag clause" for it. That's like saying, to use a gen 4 example, "ok, chomp can be ou, but only if it doesn't use sd".
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No, it's not like saying that. In the context of having a shadow tag clause, your analogy doesn't work because we're discussing eliminating the ability itself from play, not a specific pokemon that can have the ability. i.e., we're not saying, "ban shadow tag shanderra, but not shadow-tag gochi", we're saying "ban shadow tag entirely" (except possibly in the uber tier). This is entirely reasonable. Although abilities themselves have not been banned before, moves have. Instead of banning every pokemon which learned double team, minimize, etc, evasion-increasing moves were banned. So, it's not a stretch to ban broken abilities instead of the pokemon which use them so that the pokemon can use otherwise not-broken abilities in the OU tier.

If we were saying ban shadow tag shanderra because it's broken, whereas shadow tag gochi turned out not to be broken, then your analogy holds more weight.

Another thing. The weaker emo lady also get shadow tag. If there was this hypothetical "shadow tag clause" for shanderaa, and emo lady was found to be not broken with shadow tag, would she be allowed to run it?
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If it's not broken on her, then as suggested above, shanderra itself might be banned instead of the ability. If shadow tag gochi proves broken, however, it makes sense to ban the ability, not the pokemon, since all pokemon with the ability now have other ability options.

Of course, this is all speculation. Who knows if shadow tag shanderaa will be uber or not? But to those suggesting letting shanderaa stay ou without shadow tag, let me remind you, its the POKEMON that get tiered, not their abilities.
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If we can ban moves, we can ban abilities and let the pokemon use their other ability options.
 
If Shadow Tag was banned (after testing ofcourse), then it would have to be banned in Ubers too, just like OHKO moves, Double Team, etc. are banned in Ubers.

If we ban the ability Shadow Tag from OU, meaning that Shadow Tage Shanderaa can be used in Ubers, and non-Shadow Tag Wobbuffet can be used in OU, then that opens a whole load of other issues. I'm just using random tiers as an example here, but should we ban Arena Trap in NU, so we can use Sand Veil Dugtrio?

And what if Shadow Tag Wynaut doesn't prove to be broken? Is it fair to ban Shadow Tag just because some of the Pokemon that use it happen to have good stats. If the only Pokemon that got Shadow Tag were Magikarp, Kakuna and Sunkern, I don't think we'd be having this same discussion.

EDIT: I've just realized I've repeated a load of what everybody else said. Sorry.
 
The only moves that have ever been banned were moves that increased the luck factor in the game. There is no precident for banning a move simply because its overpowered.
 
doomvendingmachine said:
The only moves that have ever been banned were moves that increased the luck factor in the game. There is no precident for banning a move simply because its overpowered.
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Precedents have to be set somehow. There isn't always a perfect prior precedent. In this case, I think that if after testing shadow tag is deemed to be the reason shanderra and/or, gochi and/or wobbuffet are banned to the uber tier, whereas without the ability they would be considered OU or lower, then it makes more sense to simply ban the ability instead of the pokemon, because they would otherwise have viable and interesting uses in the lower tiers. If it were the case that shadow tag gochi weren't deemed uber but shadow tag shanderra was, then that would support the argument that shanderra itself should be banned, because it suggests it's not shadow tag alone that makes shanderra too powerful for the OU tier.

Essentially, I'm asking, if we determine that an ability is the sole (or at least major) reason why a set of pokemon are considered to be uber, then why waste their other potential uses in OU by banning them outright instead of the one common factor that relegates them to uber status?
 
I have a feleign this thing will take ONE step into OU, then get banned right to Ubers. That reaosn being its movepool and access to Shadow Tag. ANything with Shadow Tag, barring Psychic type thing, is broken. In any metagame. Shadow Tag allows Shanderaa to switch into ANY wall, Blissey namely, and completely annihilate it. Whether that cause is stalling it out with SubCM or SubSplit, perhaps. Blissey will lose to this guy, 1v1.
 
Shanderaa has access to two other abilities (Flash Fire being yet another viable one) and if Shadow Tag Shanderaa proves to be lolbroke, I'd assume they'd ban Shadow Tag, not Shandy.
In G/S/C, Hypnosis/Mean Look/Perish Song was an illegal moveset for Misdreavus to use in many tournaments, but it was still allowed in standard play so long as it didn't carry that particular combination of moves.

Wobbuffet was slammed because he didn't have ANY alternative to Shadow Tag.

In any case, I think if Shadow Tag on Chanderaa is deemed Uber, Flash Fire Chanderaa will be a legal OU. (mere prediction, but this thing looks great tbh)

Shanderaa switching in on something like Blissey or a choiced fighting attack or perhaps Nattorei is absurdly lethal, especially after 6 CMs and a Sub can get set up unopposed. At the very least, Shandy will take out 2-3 pokemon, if not the entire rest of the team.
 
doomvendingmachine said:
Of course, this is all speculation. Who knows if shadow tag shanderaa will be uber or not? But to those suggesting letting shanderaa stay ou without shadow tag, let me remind you, its the POKEMON that get tiered, not their abilities.
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i've said this earlier in the thread, but i'll repeat it for the sake of the current argument: We've banned soul dew to keep latias in OU, why can't we can shadow tag to keep shanderaa?

Honestly, i don't care which way it works, as i'm not as fond of shandy as everyone else seems to be. however, i believe either it, or its broken ability, will end up Uber.
 
Well, discussions about shadow tag aside, I want to look at this move, "Evil Eye". It's a base 50 special ghost move that , according to the first post gets boosted to 100 BP when the opponent is inflicted with a status condition. With STAB, this amounts to 75 BP and 150 BP. Now, obviously shadow ball has a consistently higher BP, so sets using Evil Eye are likely to be little more than gimicky sets, but it might be fun to take a look at the possibilities, since a 150 BP attack running off of 147 SpAtk sounds like FUN.

First, the obvious thing to do is use Evil Eye in conjunction with Will O' Wisp. Shanderra comes in, burns something with Will O' Wisp, then fires off 150 BP Evil Eyes. This would likely work best in conjunction with shadow tag, as otherwise the thing you want to burn will switch out into a counter like Ttar or Heatran, making will o' wisp ineffective, or the thing you just burned will be a counter. By not letting your target switch, you get to burn it and fire off a superpowered evil eye.

But of course, why bother with this when you could just trap it and O or 2HKO it with shadow ball?

A situation in which it might pay off more, though would still be gimicky, is a gravity team. Have a teammate lay down toxic spikes, then set up gravity. With everything that's not steel or poison soaking up a good dose of toxins, this lets shanderra come in and start tearing down the house once the aforementioned poisons and any normal types/counters are taken care of (the steels can be taken care of by fire moves, provided Shanderra isn't choiced). This also saves Shanderra the trouble of using a moveslot for will o' wisp.

For a choiced set, maybe something like the choice set in the opening post, with shadow ball replaced by evil eye:

Shanderaa @ Choice Specs/Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
Nature: Timid
EVs: 4 Def, 252 SpA, 252 Spe
~Fire Blast
~Evil Eye
~Energy Ball/HP Ground/Fighting(?)
~Overheat

Something like this might also work on a parahax team, but that's a little trickier because you have to worry about ground types more.

Anywho, these are rough ideas that I haven't really thought through much, and again, are likely gimicky at best. But, it's interesting to think about.
 
Purgatory + Evil Eye assuming you're not running a Choice set. Your opponent has to switch or use somthing immune to burn or they get rocked. I'm surprised no one has brought up the fact Purgatory GUARANTEES a burn status.
 
Melfice_Cyrum said:
Purgatory + Evil Eye assuming you're not running a Choice set. Your opponent has to switch or use somthing immune to burn or they get rocked. I'm surprised no one has brought up the fact Purgatory GUARANTEES a burn status.
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With only 50% accuracy, it's less reliable than Will-O-Wisp.
 
doomvendingmachine said:
I was having this discussion on the Team Uber server, and I'm of the opinion that, IF shadow tag shanderaa is broken, it should be uber, and there should't be a "no shadow tag clause" for it. That's like saying, to use a gen 4 example, "ok, chomp can be ou, but only if it doesn't use sd".

Another thing. The weaker emo lady also get shadow tag. If there was this hypothetical "shadow tag clause" for shanderaa, and emo lady was found to be not broken with shadow tag, would she be allowed to run it?

Of course, this is all speculation. Who knows if shadow tag shanderaa will be uber or not? But to those suggesting letting shanderaa stay ou without shadow tag, let me remind you, its the POKEMON that get tiered, not their abilities.
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People here always have clauses on certain pokemon, I already see stuff like "no rotom formes, event pokes, no skarm/bliss, no spikes of any kinds", I see this already.

At least he has another ability, so it's plausible that we can just as easily say no shadow tag.
 
Stallion said:
Do you guys not get that this thread is meant to discuss the pokemon itself as opposed to whether it should be banned or not? There were calls to ban Rhyperior before we actually got playing so let's just wait and see how Shanderaa goes before jumping to conclusions. One conclusion I can safely jump to is that Shanderaa is pretty much a full stop to every grass type in existence and will have quite possibly the biggest impact on the metagame of any new pokemon. I believe its existence will make Tyranitar the number one most use pokemon in the whole metagame (once it settles and people aren't enamoured only with Gen 5 mons) and will give Hydragon even more of a reason to be used, whom I've already explained in another thread as a top tier choice item user to begin with. I can't wait till I get my hands on these games, so many interesting mons and you can't deny the cuteness of Shanderaa ^_^.
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my baby is so smart :$

Also Evil Eye will work really well with Toxic spikes support. Only those with levitate/flying types are kinda "safe". Pokemon immune to poison get hit hard with fireblast. Poison types aren't very bulky and their dual typing (bug/poison) (poison/grass) (gengar) are still weak to evil eye/fire blast.
 
There's one last thing I'd like to say with regards to shadow tag ban.
IF shadow tag was banned, wouldn't it be relatively easy to revenge Shanderaa? I think it's like a Heatran with less defenses and more SpA.
 
I don't really see what all the hype about this thing is. I understand it traps, but that didn't necessarily help Magnezone out too much (I understand it's a different metagame and everything, don't bug me).

Before moving on, I didn't run calcs, I'm just doing a little guess work.

Without Shadow Tag, prediction can kills this thing. There are a slew of new Fire types (Hihidaruma anyone?) that can switch into a Fire attack from this thing, outspeed, and KO with EQ, SE, or Crunch (or special variants of those moves). With Shadow Tag, you lose whatever it switches in one.

Timid Specs Starmie would KO with Surf, Gyarados has plenty of bulk to get off two attacks in some variants... Aqua Jet Empoleon might work too provided it isn't boosted before switching in.

Basically all I'm saying is that this thing is still fair. It can get an easy KO/set up on things thanks to Shadow Tag, but it's Speed is low enough to allow for plenty of counters, and it's not the bulkiest 'mon around.
 
Im suprised that no one has brought up Breloom as a partner, now with Technician if you look at the Pokemon who COULD be countering this, he fights back superbly with Mach Punch, Bullet Seed, and Spore. Tyranitar sticks out as a counter, with good special attack and Shanderaas dark weak, Mach Punch turns TTar into mush within seconds. Dark types could try countering Shaderaa, but Breloom is the bane of their existence. Any thoughts?
 
Sajak said:
Without Shadow Tag, prediction can kills this thing.

Basically all I'm saying is that this thing is still fair. It can get an easy KO/set up on things thanks to Shadow Tag, but it's Speed is low enough to allow for plenty of counters, and it's not the bulkiest 'mon around.
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My point exactly. I love this thing, and before it got Shadow Tag, I kept thinking Shanderaa would be BL. Amazing SpA but meh stats everywhere else, at least by some this generation's standards. I'm expecting to see Scarves everywhere, as well as Swift Swim and other stuff. Shanderaa may be broken with Shadow Tag (who knows?) but still, without it, it isn't that threatening.
 
A pokemon with Shadow Tag is uncounterable because it always chooses what pokemon it fights. The only way to deal with it is to equip Shed Shell on your most critical pokemon and don't choice lock until you are certain what the opponent is carrying.

Shanderaa is a very good pokemon, but it is too early to say what might be uber or not, so I think we should stay away from that topic and stick to discussing the downsides of Shanderra.

There are a lot more Pursuit users now, and some of them are packing Overconfidence like the crocodile. I think this plus priority is going to keep this thing in check. As long as it doesn't get Mirror Coat or Counter, I don't see it being too strong to handle with its defenses as low as they are.
 
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