So, here are the main claims you made in this section:
-Gallade has more switch-in/set up opportunities (you use Milotic as an example)
I'm actually somewhat incredulous that you seriously attempted to make that first point, because there is no way in hell Gallade has more set up opportunities than Heracross does. Someone asked "how did Gallade set up against stall" a few pages back, and no one answered him...because it had a really fucking difficult time doing so. I don't care that it has "fewer exploitable weaknesses", resistances matter far more as far as set-up goes.
This "not quoting" thing works nicely for you since you can outright ignore some of my points, like how I addressed that people
do not sit there and spam EQ and Crunch on you. The more exploitable weaknesses, the less chances you'll have to set up. Simple as that.
FlareBlitz said:
Here are a list of Pokemon I wrote up that Heracross can set up on or force out, a few pages back: "donphan, torterra, hitmontop, milotic, spiritomb, drapion, non-sub/wow rotom, and non-life orb mismagius". This is by no means comprehensive. I consider "setting up or forcing out" valid if Cross has the ability to instantly KO the opponent if he stays in and will not be KO'd first if the opponent is faster, by the way...which is true for every single one of those.
Donphan: Uh yea, no. Donphan is either defensive with Roar, or Adamant w/ Attack EVs and has Head Smash (71.4% - 84.4%) / Stone Edge (47.8% - 56.5%).
Torterra: It still 2HKOes you with Stone Edge, but I'll give you it.
Hitmontop: Yea you come in on Hitmontop, press Swords Dance, then get dominated by Aerial Ace. Want to know the ironic thing here? Gallade sets up on Hitmontop just fine, even if it's carrying Aerial Ace.
Drapion: Read Hitmontop. And yes, I actually use Aerial Ace on my Drapion; it hits opposing Hitmontop, Toxicroak, and Heracross. It isn't one of those shitty types like Poison or Psychic.
Non-Sub Rotom/Missy: I don't feel the need to even point out how ridiculous this is to bring up. That's like saying "non Sleep Powder Venusaur".
FlareBlitz said:
Amusingly, Gallade can set up on none of these except Milotic and possibly Hitmontop depending on the spread (Close Combat from offensive spreads 2hko, lawl)...and it actually loses to Spiritomb, Mismagius, and Rotom outright. In an attempt to be fair, I was trying to think of Pokemon that Gallade can set up on which Heracross cannot, and I seriously couldn't. Gallade's only defensive advantage over Heracross consists of ~9% more special defense, which really doesn't matter very much at all compared to everything Heracross has over it.
One-dimensional arguments that look solely at stats are one-dimensional. You for some reason think that Pokemon can't run Aerial Ace because it's not run
without Heracross in the metagame. However the truth is, people
can and
will prepare for Heracross. Gallade does not have an exploitable "insta-check" move that KOes it off the bat that every Pokemon can learn (AAce and HPflying).
FlareBlitz said:
As for Milotic...some calcs:
Surf v 4/0 Cross: 35.8% - 42.1%
Surf v 4/0 Gallade: 32.7% - 38.8%
Yeah both of them face the exact same 3hko (with rocks). And I swear to god, don't say "hurr cross has an orb", because I already addressed that earlier. For the purposes of this discussion assume it has a life orb or choice band, both of those are usually better sets anyway.
Gallade's EVs are not max/max....they generally have roughly 100-120 EVs in HP. However, I'll humor you and actually further prove my point.
Math time.
4 HP Heracross vs 0 SpA Milotic
35.8% + 12.5% + 35.8% = 84.1% MINIMUM damage
42.1% + 12.5% + 42.1% = 96.2% maximum damage
4 HP Gallade vs 0 SpA Milotic
32.7% + 6.25% + 32.7% = 71.65% minimum damage
38.8% + 6.25% + 38.8% = 83.85% maximum damage
As I have been saying, you're one-sided one-dimensional arguments have no merit when you ignore basic things like Stealth Rock resistance. This and the 9% extra Special bulk cause Heracross to be basically 2HKOed while it gives Gallade much more breathing room. Most of the time Heracross only gets 1 attack while Gallade gets 3. Sweeping 1 Pokemon vs sweeping 3?
Also, for fun:
120 HP Gallade vs 0 SpA Milotic
29.6% + 6.25% + 29.6% = 65.45%
29.6% + 6.25% + 29.6% + 29.6% = 95.05% (Yes just for shits and giggles it's 4HKOed by Surf with min rolls)
35.2% + 6.25 + 35.2% = 76.65%
When you start sounding like this: "well it just has this....this...and this...and this....and this..." you know you're digging yourself in a whole. Just because there are many small differences doesn't mean that they don't count.
FlareBlitz said:
-Gallade is harder to revenge
Fortunately for you, this argument has slight merit. But still not a lot.
The most common way of revenging things in UU is priority. Things like Extremespeed, Aqua Jet, TechTop, Sucker Punch, and so on. Additionally, many of the Pokemon faster than Gallade either resist Shadow Sneak (Houndoom, Swellow), or don't really give a shit (Arcanine, Leafeon). Now obviously, Pokemon like Alakazam, Missy, and Rotom are the exceptions here...but then you have to consider that Alakazam is the only one of those three who can actually revenge Heracross.
First of all, lol at Fake Out against a Steadfast mon vs offense.
Second, I'd like to call bullshit on your last line because Rotom and Missy both revenge kill Heracross with a very simple HP Flying or 2HKO via Thunderbolt / Shadow Ball.
You also need to consider that other weakened offensive Pokemon take 70% from +2 Shadow Sneak, meaning they need to be in mint shape to take on Gallade while it doesn't matter with Heracross because they outpace and OHKO it. You have a huge amount of Pokemon that by the end of the battle will likely be sitting at around 70% and will get shmeist by Shadow Sneak.
You can weaken a team and sweep with Gallade. Heracross....you simply can't. Use Heracross as a wallbreaker vs offense, seriously. The only reason you're even considering SD Cross in the first place is because it's the only set that dominates stall.
FlareBlitz said:
So basically, yes, Shadow Sneak does make Gallade slightly harder to revenge, I'll grant that. But wait, we forgot about priority. Gallade is weak to a form of priority (Shadow Sneak) and it does not resist any except Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave. Heracross is weak to no priority, resists Sucker Punch, Mach Punch, and Vacuum Wave, and has way better physical defense to boot (around 25%). Just some quick calcs for ya:
What uses Shadow Sneak besides Gallade and Spiritomb? Muk?
You're also TOTALLY missing the point. Priority vs Heracross is irrelevant 9/10 times because it can just be outsped and revenge killed. Gallade needs to be outsped AND be hit by a priority attack in order to be "reliably" revenge killed.
CB Arcanine's Xspeed versus Cross: 53.6% - 63.2%
Gallade: 65.1% - 77%
Defensive Arcanine's Flare Blitz vs Heracross: OHKO
vs Gallade: not
Offensive Arcanine's Flare Blitz vs either: OHKO.
Why the fuck is Arcanine using ExtremeSpeed when it outpaces. The only time it would ever use it is against Gallade after switching into Close Combat to avoid being totally useless.
CB Azumarill's Aqua Jet versus Cross: 50.7% - 59.6%
Gallade: 60.8% - 72.3%
No difference vs offense.
FlareBlitz said:
CB Tomb's Shadow Sneak versus Cross: 36.1% - 42.7%
Gallade: 87.1% - 103.6%
Spiritomb beats Gallade, what is it now 8-1?
Physical MixDoom's Sucker Punch versus Cross: 30.5% - 35.8%
Gallade: 73.7% - 87.4%
Hi I'm Houndoom, I outspeed Heracross and Gallade, and I also carry this fancy move called Fire Blast and I like using it to OHKO Heracross but failing miserably to OHKO Gallade (mixed does 54.7% - 64.5% with Fire Blast).
TechTop's Fake Out -> Bullet Punch versus Cross: 62.9% - 74.2%
Gallade: 77% - 90.6%
+2 Shadow Sneak vs Technitop: 41.4% - 49%
Nearly guaranteed 2HKO with Life Orb recoil and Stealth Rock (at best it lives with 1% left).
Please don't waste my time with calculations of priority moves on faster Pokemon that OHKO Heracross
without priority. I guess it kind of made Gallade look that much better.
I mean, you literally just said this:
"Heracross, a base 85 Speed Pokemon, takes less damage from base 95 Speed Pokemon's
priority attacks, but it is OHKOed by them anyway since they are faster and carry STAB Fire Blast and Flare Blitz."
FlareBlitz said:
Basically, Gallade takes so much more from common priority that, in my estimation, it is statistically far easier to revenge than Heracross is.
Well when you fail to present more than one Pokemon that can reliably revenge Gallade that can't revenge kill Heracross, while presenting more Pokemon that reliably revenge kill Heracross and can't revenge kill Gallade, I'd be inclined to say that you're statistically wrong.
FlareBlitz said:
Lol at calling my logic "fallacious" after using calcs like Adamant LO Gallade's Shadow Sneak barely koing something with 55/45 defenses that it's super-effective against and then saying "see shadow sneak is awesome!!111" The funny thing here is that Jolly doesn't even ohko all the time...and this is an Alakazam. Really?
This matters to the game about as much as Gallade being shiny. As I have said before, your arbitrary irrelevant statements do not mean anything. "lol omg its alakazam and it only does this much but it still OHKOes".
How does Heracross do against Alakazam?
FlareBlitz said:
Shadow Sneak is very weak. Yes, it KOs Moltres after it takes a Close Combat and Stealth Rock. So what? Cross has a fantastic secondary STAB in Megahorn (Psycho Cut is nice, but weak and makes you Tomb bait), and a fucking immunity to burn. It can pretty easily wreck Pokemon that would wall Gallade just with Megahorn, and unlike Gallade it isn't forced out by anything with a part Psychic typing and a modicum of bulk (uxie, mespirit, slowwwwwbrooooo). Are you really going to use a piss-weak priority attack as justification for Gallade being better? That is one hell of a stretch, friend.
Again all of this stuff is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that Heracross does not function as well as Gallade
because of Shadow Sneak + better typing. Ok Heracross has a lot of power with Guts, but, again, last I checked Guts doesn't increase Heracross's Speed and OHKO every Ghost type (besides tomb).
FlareBlitz said:
Summary:
If Gallade was banned for "breaking" stall when Tomb/Weezing/Slowbro/Tangrowth/Torterra/Uxie pretty handily shut it down (some of these depend on set), then how is Heracross worse when it gets by ALL of those and if faster to boot?
And if we're talking proficiency versus offensive/balanced teams, all I really need to point to is Heracross's higher speed, better defense against priority, better STAB moves, immunity to burn, better typing (unless someone trolls you with HP Flying I guess), and access to a very spammable tertiary coverage option in Facade/Double-Edge.
Ok so I'll ignore that Gallade sweeps those Pokemon and that HP Flying is a very very very legitimate move, specifically for Pokemon like Sceptile, Rotom, and Mismagius (hit Venusaur, Croak, Torterra, Leafeon, and the like SE).
Anyway, thank you for pointing out Heracross's Speed and lack of priority, because that is the sole reason why your "takes less from 95 base Speed mons priority" is an invalid point.
I am getting kind of exhausted myself...I'm usually fine with doing this but all I've been doing is repeating myself after proving something false over and over again. It's making this whole discussion stale as fuck.