NP: UU - Zero to Hero

[Heysup]

No one is talking about the Flame Orb set being able to switch into Milotic. I figured me saying "of course the flame orb set shouldn't switch into milotic" would have been a pretty fucking major clue, but I suppose not.

You said "it shouldn't, but it can if it needs to" when it obviously cannot switch in and take two Surfs, since it doesn't come close to OHKOing Milotic. Why would you say "it can if it needs to" if you meant "it can't switch in and beat Milotic". I'd be more concerned if any of us thought of your sentence as a clue....

And while we're being "accurate"...when Heracross switches into Milotic it takes less damage from Surf than Venusaur does from Ice Beam (since we're assuming the Milotic user predicts perfectly and doesn't just whiff a Toxic/HP Grass on Cross). When it attacks, it threatens possible switch-ins WAY more than Venusaur just through sheer power and coverage (and I would love to hear you mention sleep powder right now mr. "hey guys it's just another attack"). While it doesn't have instant recovery, it does have nearly the same defensive stats as Venusaur, which is the only thing that is relevant on a choice set. Really we could sit here going back and forth but in my (albeit brief) experience I found that getting Heracross in on the strength of its earthquake resistance and then doing actual damage with non-shitty coverage was a lot easier than it is with Venusaur...which was the entire point behind the bulk discussion

I do hate repeating myself

Does Venusaur lower its defenses when it attacks? Does it lose 25% when it switches in before taking damage? Does it lose 12.5% HP per turn after that? Does Heracross have Sleep Powder + Instant Recovery?

If you are really so naive to think that Heracross is going to take Milotic's Surf better than Venusaur can take Milotic's Ice Beam then we should probably end this discussion here; it won't go anywhere.

1) Venusaur can recover off the damage.
2) Venusaur can OHKO Milotic (it always OHKOes bold Milotic, and sometimes OHKOes Calm 252/56 Milotic).

Heracross can do neither of those things. Why, as supporters of Heracross being "too good", would you even think to compare it to Venusaur when switching into Milotic. Are you trying to make it look worse than it is?

I recommend you stick to emphasizing the Earthquake resistance, because that's a big deal.

Also, I like how you guys were flipping your shit when I was comparing Moltres and Venusaur, yet when you guys compare Heracross and Venusaur it's all of the sudden ok. This forum has everything else, why not add a little hypocrisy?

 

[Ice-eyes]

I like the look of LO Missy as a lead but Pain Split is a little bit iffy imo. You're going to end up getting Pursuited / set up on by Houndoom, and it's gonna suck.

 

[Cherub Agent]

meh, to me, this is the most efficient heracross spread for a balanced team

Heracross@Life Orb
Guts / Jolly
6 HP / 252 Att / 252 Spe
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Megahorn
- Low Kick

Fixes the issue about sacrificing his bulk for losing health quickly, and hits like a freaking TRUCK, due to guts and LO.

Also, i love a good ol' SubPuncher. Focus Punch from heracross if just terrifying, and with the coverage from megahorn and stone edge he rocks. Guys, i really recommend you dont forget focus punch for close combat, since the power difference is quite noticeable. SubPunch also makes a great wish reciever from gardevoir, chansey and clefable, since he resists all their weaknesses except gardevoirs psychic

 

[Smurf.]

Simply can't comprehend why anyone would want to run a set like that. Benefits? small increase in power thats pretty much irrelevant. Drawbacks? reliance on pure luck to do anything, significantly increases list of counters. If you're gonna use restalk, at least put bulk up on there. Another thing, you're running a Toxic Orb spread for rest talk? 252 HP / 40 Atk / 216 SpDfor any restalk set.

 

[Heysup]

I actually think the Restalk set is close behind the Scarf set for "best Heracross set". It can reliably switch into mons like Venusaur while also packing more power than the Flame Orb variant.

 

[Smurf.]

I actually think the Restalk set is close behind the Scarf set for "best Heracross set". It can reliably switch into mons like Venusaur while also packing more power than the Flame Orb variant.

While simultaneously providing opportunity for SDhera to come in and whale all over you.

 

[Arcticblast]

Heracross resists both of its own STAB moves, and RestTalk + Bulk Up is very effective. SDHera has to waste a turn to SD, while RestTalk probably already has a Bulk Up or two under its belt, allowing it to do more damage.

 

[Smurf.]

Heracross resists both of its own STAB moves, and RestTalk + Bulk Up is very effective. SDHera has to waste a turn to SD, while RestTalk probably already has a Bulk Up or two under its belt, allowing it to do more damage.

Thats assuming everything goes right for you, which from experience flat out doesnt happen. More like you rest, then rest again when you use sleep talk.

 

[Heysup]

Oh when SD Heracross comes in and sets up after taking 78.1% - 92% from Guts LO CC / Megahorn you mean?

 

[Arcticblast]

With LO, a Guts boost, and +1 (Bulk Up, although the LO addon is a little odd) a no investment Heracross takes 85.7% - 101% from Megahorn.

EDIT: Heh, 666th post. I feel so evil.

 

[Synre]

OK I'm handing out way too many infractions in this thread lately.


Stop. Trying. To. Troll. Each. Other.

You aren't flying under the radar. It isn't cute. No one sees it for anything but what it is. Stop doing it. You can debate without making thinly veiled personal attacks. Argue about the issues, not each other.

 

[googlyeyesultra]

I've run the aforementioned speedy resttalk set and find it quite effective. A great status absorber that can come in on common pokes like venusaur (or really any grass), registeel, choiced attacks, donphan, etc. and use the opportunity to do a lot of damage to switch ins, while maintaining good bulk and speed. The high speed and attack are critical; besides, hera scares things out decently well to grab a rest now and again and has enough bulk to get rests against a lot of common stall mons. You obviously need SR and good water types to help switch in to Moltres (and other fires, but mostly moltres), as well as switch ins to Weezing (who, frankly, is really easy to switch in on, especially since he probably won't burn on the switch).

The increase in power and durability make up for the fail coverage for the most part.

 

[Smurf.]

OK.

Toxic Orb set.
benefits: Coverage to power through counters/checks
drawbacks: Frail as fuck

Restalk + bulkup set.
benefits: greater bulk, can switch in more often
drawbacks: mono attack = fail coverage, luck


From what I can see, what is being proposed here is some fucked up hybrid, that has the combined drawbacks of both sets, whilst simultaneously nerfing the benefits. Wowzers this set is unbelievable!!!!


FAILcross set.
benefits: can come in on Venusaur... and eat 55.6% - 65.6% from LO sludge bomb. great.

drawbacks:
- STILL frail as fuck and can barely switch into anything without taking 40% + damage.
- shit coverage so it's reliably beaten by common pokes by both offensive and stall teams
- No boosting move... so it remains a pushover
- pretty much 0 - 33.33% of doing something useful while asleep
- low kick. nuff said.

 

[googlyeyesultra]

The offensive sleeptalk set doesn't need a boosting move to avoid being a pushover. We're talking about a life orb, guts boosted, 120 base power STAB megahorn off of one of the strongest attackers in UU.

To demonstrate:
Guts LO Jolly Megahorn vs:
Max/Max Milotic 78.9% - 93.1% (who is also outsped the next turn)
Standard Registeel 35.7% - 42% (who is outsped and KO'd easily with low kick the next turn)
LO Moltres 31.5% - 37.1% (Have fun taking that after SR, and low kick does 42.1% - 49.5%, meaning that SR + low kick + a tiny bit of residual kills it)
Morning Glory Arcanine 42.5% - 50.1% (After intimidate, outsped and takes 70.9% - 83.8% from lowkick after intimidate as well)
Spdef Weezing 43.1% - 50.9% (Who can't hurt you back all that badly since you just recover the damage off later, and is outsped (meaning a possible 2hko, although admittedly unlikely with accuracy and sleep talk issues), and is a pushover to switch in to with the rest of your team)

Although the fail coverage is well, fail, the power is incredible (and I'm considering replacing low kick with perhaps CC or Stone Edge, but I haven't had a chance to test much due to server issues).

Furthermore, this set does not require a turn to boost. Have fun getting off an SD or a bulk up and then being forced out the next turn by a faster poke with a flying move. Yes, heracross is bulky enough to switch in. It isn't bulky enough, nor can it avoid weaknesses well enough, to tank for long periods of time or really even set up anything more than a substitute.

Naturally this set doesn't outclass the others, but it means that heracross will put very large holes in things, gives an offensive team a good status absorber (including sleep) which offensive teams often struggle with, and isn't very prone to residual damage, meaning that strategies involving wearing it down with say a surf from milotic and some switching around for orb damage simply don't work.

Yes, resttalk is unreliable. The fact is though that you hit hard enough (esp. with SR factored in against many would-be switchins) such that even choosing the wrong move (besides rest, of course) will do quite a bit of damage.

The main thing with this set is that it plays well against just about any kind of team. SD naturally is very good against stall, scarf/sub fares well against offense, etc. To be honest I'm not terribly sure what resttalk bulkup sets are supposed to do well against, since stall will just phaze you out right away before you get much damage down and offense will just kill you with a flying move as soon as you set up a bulk up.

 

[Smurf.]

The offensive sleeptalk set doesn't need a boosting move to avoid being a pushover. We're talking about a life orb, guts boosted, 120 base power STAB megahorn off of one of the strongest attackers in UU.

To demonstrate:
Guts LO Jolly Megahorn vs:
Max/Max Milotic 78.9% - 93.1% (who is also outsped the next turn)
Standard Registeel 35.7% - 42% (who is outsped and KO'd easily with low kick the next turn)
LO Moltres 31.5% - 37.1% (Have fun taking that after SR)
Morning Glory Arcanine 42.5% - 50.1% (After intimidate, outsped and takes 70.9% - 83.8% from lowkick after intimidate as well)
Spdef Weezing 43.1% - 50.9% (Who can't hurt you back all that badly since you just recover the damage off, and is outsped, and is a pushover to switch in to with the rest of your team)

First of all, you may have missed what I ment by 'pushover'. I was referring to the fact that the bulk up set wont have as big issues with priority and such after a boost in conjunction with hp investment. That heracross is taking 50% from jolly arcanine Espeed or 60% from CB Aqua jet no matter when.

Second, let's not forget that you need to be asleep to get this 'super boost'. However, you're not at liberty to select what moves you want to hit X pokemon with. Switching in with some thing that resists megahorn or low kick leaves you with effectively 33% to actually do something. That's 66% that RP aggron will sweep the rest of your team.

Furthermore, this set does not require a turn to boost. Have fun getting off an SD or a bulk up and then being forced out the next turn by a faster poke with a flying move. Yes, heracross is bulky enough to switch in. It isn't bulky enough, nor can it avoid weaknesses well enough, to tank for long periods of time or really even set up anything more than a substitute.

Any boosting poke is susceptible to being forced out immediately. Its an inherent problem.

Naturally this set doesn't outclass the others, but it means that heracross will put very large holes in things, gives an offensive team a good status absorber (including sleep) which offensive teams often struggle with, and isn't very prone to residual damage, meaning that strategies involving wearing it down with say a surf from milotic and some switching around for orb damage simply don't work.

For punching holes into defensive cores it is completely outclassed by the CB set. It's only merit is being a status absorber, a niche that belongs to the bulk up set.

 

[googlyeyesultra]

Apologies, I assumed you meant offensively a pushover.

Anyways, to try to address each of your points:

Getting to be asleep is really easy. Go switch in on something or fire off a couple of attacks. You, for the most part, get to decide when you want to select your attacks and when you want to recover + get more power.

Also note that a lot of common resists are frankly not bulky enough to handle those attacks, as those calcs demonstrate. Have fun with (spDef) Weezing taking half of its health and being forced to sleep or Moltres very nearly dying, being forced to roost while letting your water type come in for free. Just resisting an attack frankly isn't enough to tank it well. Mind you, you still do need a solid defensive core or good priority to handle the occasional setup mon, but unless you're running hyper offense you're doing that anyways. Stuff will set up once in a while and you should have the team to handle that.

Heracross as a boosting poke isn't much like, say, Absol in UU or Suicune in OU.
Absol has scary priority. Very scary priority. Yes, it can be forced out, but the number of things that can force absol out is limited, and absol can choose to sacrifice itself for a lot of damage on whatever counter came out. Suicune actually has the bulk such that there are only a couple of things actually capable of forcing it out after a single CM. These are good set up sweepers. SD or Bulk Up Heracross is forced out by anything faster than it (and it isn't exactly blazing fast, especially the resttalk set you propose) with a flying move (and stuff is starting to carry flying moves), as well as plenty of other things like arcanine, some priority, etc. Have fun getting forced out for more orb + SR damage by swellow, scyther, and more. Good boosting pokes are very, very hard to force out. Bad ones are easy to force out. RP Aggron, as another example, really only forced out by priority fighting users and a couple of walls like Torterra.

I admit, offensive orb/CB sets are usually better at punching holes in defensive cores (although again, stall thrives on residual damage, and having your wallbreaker not die quickly to residual is a really, really big deal). Being a wallbreaker and a status absorber in one is quite nice though, in that you can switch in freely on twave from registeel or sleep from bulky grasses and not care. There is some viability in a set being versatile and filling multiple roles at once, even if slightly below the optimal for each role, considering you only have six team slots, and this heracross set does make a great durable wallbreaker, something which frankly is very valuable and very rare.

Even if you do take 40-60% from a wall sometime, you can easily switch in on a lot of other walls, grab a free rest as they switch (or outspeed and rest before registeel lawl taps you lightly), and then be ready to wallbreak some more.

 

[Heysup]

You're argument is one-sided and thus invalid. I will address it anyway.

OK.

Toxic Orb set.
benefits: Coverage to power through counters/checks
drawbacks: Frail as fuck

Benefits:

1. 1.5 multiplier.
2. ability to switch moves at the same time.


Drawbacks:

1. Has about 10 very viable faster Pokemon that can switch in and revenge kill it.
2. Any Substitute user beats it.
3. Frail as fuck.
4. Not "powerful" enough to OHKO various defensive mons that KO it back.

Restalk + bulkup set.
benefits: greater bulk, can switch in more often
drawbacks: mono attack = fail coverage, luck

Benefits:

1. Bulk.
2. Can absorb status.
3. Ends matches once set up.

Drawbacks:

1. Mono attack.
2. Starts off weak.
3. even after bulk ups, has very exploitable weaknesses.
4. Only has 1/3 chance of attacking.
5. Slow.

FAILcross set.
benefits: can come in on Venusaur... and eat 55.6% - 65.6% from LO sludge bomb. great.

drawbacks:
- STILL frail as fuck and can barely switch into anything without taking 40% + damage.
- shit coverage so it's reliably beaten by common pokes by both offensive and stall teams
- No boosting move... so it remains a pushover
- pretty much 0 - 33.33% of doing something useful while asleep
- low kick. nuff said.

Restalk LO Cross:

Benefits:

1. Can absorb Sleep (and activate Sleep Clause) and Thunder Waves.
2. 1.95 multiplier
3. Restalk allows it to switch into Milotic, Blastosie, Venusaur, Registeel, ScarfCross, various Earthquakes, and etc. more often.
4. Powerful enough to KO Pokemon that resist its attacks, such as Mismagius and Rotom (unlike the Flame Orb variant, all they need is their usual Substitute #'s)
5. Lasts longer than Flame Orb

Drawbacks:

1. 2/3 chance to Attack
2. Still frailer than bulk up

Not Drawbacks:

1. Coverage doesn't matter as much as it does for the other sets, it hits harder than the Flame Orb set.

2. 2/3 = .666666666666.....x100 = 66.7% of doing an attack. I have no fucking clue how you got from 0-33.3% of doing an attack because no matter what you do you can't get a 0% chance of doing an attack.

3. This pushover does 1.3x more damage than your precious Flame Orb set. Ironic.

4. It uses Close Combat, Low Kick sucks.

As you can see, your post was one-sided as fuck. You not only duplicated points, you just completely didn't list ANY of the actual benefits of the LO Restalk set. Additionally, you made up drawbacks. You're drawbacks are literally all wrong except for one, being frail, but it's still more durable than Flame Orb.

Can we move on already?

 

[Cherub Agent]

so, would you guys recommend close combat over low kick on the LORestTalk i posted? I just find that low kick has the advantage since:
It has more PP
It doesnt lower his quite good defenses
I think it hits all it really needs to for good damage

Also, regarding the sets coverage, his stab moves alone do fine, since they deal SO MUCH DAMAGE lol.

Also, do we really need to be so offensive to eachother? Smurf might dislike the set because it doesnt fit onto his team, but there's no need to hate it, since it really is quite good IMO. Also, any word on the SubPuncher? Lol it seems like im dissing CC, but i assure you this isnt the case. It works better on possibly every set except the two i mentioned

 

[shrang]

Low Kick does have some problems with your lighter Pokemon like Hitmontop and opposing Heracross. It also doesn't hit Arcanine as hard (Close Combat could make him think twice about recovering it off with Morning Sun), which can be quite annoying.

Anyway, Heysup, I'm going to nitpick you slightly:

Restalk LO Cross:

Benefits:

1. Can absorb Sleep (and activate Sleep Clause) and Thunder Waves.
2. 1.8 multiplier.

I'm quite sure +1 and LO means 1.5 x 1.3 = x1.95 multiplier. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

 

[Heysup]

You're right. It's like you start with +2.

EDIT: I'm still talking about Rest / Sleep Talk / CC / Megahorn

 

[Arcticblast]

It's almost a free Swords Dance, plus an immunity to Status. Couple that with Bulk Up and it's game over for the opponent if you manage to set up. Bulk Up has its obvious drawbacks, obviously. If it runs CC, you lose to a Ghost, and if it runs Megahorn, you lose to Registeel and Steelix, possibly. Registeel is, well, Registeel, and Steelix will Roar you out anyway. Or Curse in your face.

 

[Banedon]

Against offense, Scarf Heracross is much better than Gallade.

Against stall... lol guts.

So really, on paper I'm seeing no reason not to ban Heracross.

And my god. Heracross actually gets at least 2 kills a game. It doesn't matter what switches in, it is going to get fucked. All Heracross has to do is spam Facade and Megahorn, using CC only after you've removed ghosts. Even if a ghost switches in... it's fucked. Missy and Rotom are not doing more than 50%, and they can't burn Hera. Megahorn KOes after rocks(guts boosted). Spiritomb flat out loses.

Heracross can't sweep, but it kills pokemon so badly...

I'm wondering what the pro-Heracross players think about this post, because I've come to conclude that Heracross is very much BL.

For one, Scarf Heracross is very effective against offensive teams. It will get its chances to switch in, because it's quite a bulky Pokemon with lots of resistances. As has been pointed out before Heracross has defenses that are only slightly inferior to Venusaur, and since it's not running Flame Orb / Toxic Orb it isn't taking damage every turn either. It may not have sleep and it may not have instant recovery, but it hits much harder, has superb coverage and is faster than Jolly Swellow. A good player can still play around Scarf Heracross, the same way a good player can play around any Scarfed Pokemon, but regardless Heracross really hurts (120 BP moves backed by STAB and 125 base attack).

For example, Mismagius can come in on Close Combat with impunity, but it's actually 2HKOed by Megahorn. Moltres can come in on Megahorn easily, but relying on a Pokemon 4x weak to Stealth Rock to defend against any threat is a dangerous proposition - that's partly why Articuno, despite formidable defenses and instant recovery, isn't a good wall (the other being a lack of resistances). It's very dangerous for Moltres to switch into Scarf Heracross if Stealth Rock is up; if it dares switch in anyway and Heracross uses Close Combat, it's 2HKOed. Even if it switches into Megahorn it would be forced to Roost, letting whatever switches in next come in unscathed. Furthermore, both Moltres and Mismagius are in hot soup if Heracross uses Stone Edge.

Defensive teams can deal with Scarf Heracross much easier, but they still run into a formidable obstacle - Guts. Since Heracross is difficult to OHKO for defensive Pokemon (it survives 0 SpA Uxie Psychic, for example), and since Heracross hits so hard, many stall Pokemon would be forced to rely on status against it. But they can't Burn Heracross. Paralysis helps, but a paralyzed Heracross is still dangerous against a stall team. Poison does nothing to Heracross either, except it forces the Toxic-using Pokemon to be careful with it against other Pokemon. A Heracross that successfully switches into Toxic is even scarier than it already is.

And that's Scarf Heracross. There are other Heracross sets. Though they won't sweep whole teams (they aren't fast enough), they are still very destructive. Sets like Sub + Orb or Orb + 4 attacks, although they die very fast, still deal mega damage before fainting. If you switch Moltres into Heracross when SR isn't up, and it Subs, you have an 80% chance of losing Moltres ... in this, Heracross is even reminiscent of Venusaur in its unpredictability.

Once again I have to link to this post ...

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2380690&postcount=88

Even if we neglect the fact that there are other viable Heracross sets and consider only the Swords Dance set, what in that post does not hold for Heracross?

I'm just wondering, since I didn't play much UU when Gallade was here, how did Gallade usually come into the battle? I don't mean to directly compare Gallade and Hera in terms of being broken, but if Hera not being able to switch in is a point against its brokenness then how did Gallade come in with his vulnerability to status, less impressive set of resistances, and lower overall bulk?

It got into a tank, put on Registeel armour and yelled, "LET'S ROLL!!"

Sorry, couldn't help it :naughty:

But yeah, Heracross has its chances to switch in. It has fine resistances, Guts and decent bulk after all ...

 

[Smurf.]

Don't get why so many people say scarf hera sweeps offense teams. Not once have I been swept, or even remotely threatened by it. Rather, it's one-dimensional play often leads to me sweeping the opposing team. >.>


EDIT: IMO, Heracross sits nicely in UU. A very real threat, no doubt, but manageable all the same. It seems to me that currently people are (to be blunt) woefully unprepared to deal with it.

 

[shrang]

Just interested, since shoddy's been offline for the past week or so, are we going to have an extension to this round??

Anyway:

Don't get why so many people say scarf hera sweeps offense teams. Not once have I been swept, or even remotely threatened by it. Rather, it's one-dimensional play often leads to me sweeping the opposing team. >.>

It doesn't, but cleans up late game when stuff have been weakened a bit. It can cause offense a bit of trouble since it can outspeed and revenge a lot of the sweepers, so you need to remove it first before attempting your sweep, I guess.

 

[Heysup]

Don't get why so many people say scarf hera sweeps offense teams. Not once have I been swept, or even remotely threatened by it. Rather, it's one-dimensional play often leads to me sweeping the opposing team. >.>

There are good players are bad players. You can't judge an entire set based on how some people fuck up when they use it.

By this logic, Milotic sucks, Venusaur sucks, Arcanine sucks, Rhyperior sucks, Torterra sucks, and even Flame Orb Heracross sucks. I've likely never been swept by one of these Pokemon, but that's not because they suck. It is because a) stupid players are stupid and b) I prepare for them because they are threatening sweepers.

EDIT: IMO, Heracross sits nicely in UU. A very real threat, no doubt, but manageable all the same. It seems to me that currently people are (to be blunt) woefully unprepared to deal with it.

I actually agree with this 100%.