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Haxorus

Sorry I wasn't clear on the EVs part.It takes a Jolly Ono 156 ATK EVs to be the same as a Jolly Salamence with 252 ATK EVs.I know Ono is slower.Thats why I think it need some more bulk to try to get 2+ Dragon Dances.

If 280 is the speed to go for, it would require 100 EVs in speed to accomplish.This with the 156 ATK EVs would give you 369 Atk/280 Spe before a Dance.This leaves 254 EVs to dump into HP/Defense.

I like the ideas on Taunt but I like Sub to.Argh.

EDITED: Typo
 
You could possibly go lower in speed, but that may eventually be a downside. IMO, 280 or higher is a safe speed, and can allow for extra bulk. After two DD with 280 spe, you'll still be able to outrun your counters like any other Ono set. Conversly, you dont have to use a jolly nature either. Adamant can work just fine by investing 200 into it, while you'll only need 82 atk EV's to reach 385 attack, which is making a good use to it's attack stat still. That means that it can still hit just as hard, and be just as fast in the same situations as other Ono's. In that same EV spread, I can have 68 Def EV's, and 156 HP EV's which rounds out my physical bulk a bit more.
 
I actually think 60 Speed EVs work best on a DD set, to outspeed fully invested base 116s after one DD and everything else after two. Any more speed invested, if you choose to do so, should be enough to allow it to outspeed fully invested base 130s after a DD, but I don't think that's as much of a problem as surviving a Bullet Punch from a CB Scizor with a reasonable amount of health, as Ono resists Jolteon's STAB and Aero's attacking stats aren't too great.

@Dragon Rider: You're doing it wrong. Ono has less bulk, less speed, but more power than Mence, and should be played as such. Meaning you don't invest enough to equal Mence's attack and then invest in bulk, you invest in full attack (most of the time) and then maybe take a bit out if you feel it could be used somewhere else. But the point of Ononokusu is to be able to hit harder than any other Dragon (barring Rayquaza), not to be able to copy Mence's DD set. Ono will always be inferior to Mence in speed, and so one should note that and play to its strengths, meaning you have to invest in its overwhelmingly huge power in order to not let it be a slower Mence or Chomp. SD sets can be better than Chomp in certain situations because of its huge attack, and DD sets can be better than Mence for the same reason. But these pokemon will always have more bulk and a wider movepool than Ono, so you should invest in the one stat that makes it stand out-its humongous attack-and use that to your advantage.

Taunt > Sub on SD sets because they're specifically meant for wallbreaking, but Sub can go over another move on a DD set to allow it to scout for scarfers attempting to switch in on a DD and force it out. But Taunt can also be utilized, it just works a lot better on an SD set.

@AxelLow: As I said above, although Ono should have some bulk, attack is its most important stat and as such should be almost always fully invested, otherwise Ono risks being outclassed by bulkier dragons like Mence and Chomp.
 
@cosmicexplorer Thanks for the clarification.I think I got stuck on the 2+ Dragon Dance and bulk was the only thing on my mind.How much defense does it need to take CB Admant Tech Scizor Bullet Punch anyways?Does it take away to much from speed and attack?
 
While I agree that attack is an important stat, I disagree that It needs to be fully invested in too. His attack stat is really only raising the percents past the already OHKO marker on most pokes, so you dont necessarily need to continue boosting attack. As long as he can reach a healthy amount that still allows him to get his OHKO's, 2HKO's, etc., then his attack stat doesn't need full investments(similar to many other sweepers that don't need to invest in as much attack, like Bulky Gyara).

With that, running a bulky set with Adamant nature can cure the need to place so many EV's in attack, allowing to already have an edge on most with just his nature alone.

When it comes to speed, I think the lowest I'd ever go is 261, which is 124 EV's with adamant nature. With all the newer pokes, spe is still a major factor. while 60 spe is still relatively safe, it still misses out on his major counter that'll be lurking around: Scarfchomp. Even with Haban berry, it'll likely K.O if your around 60-70% health, unless you place a decent amount of EV's in bulk, which you may not have by investing a good portion into attack.

IMO, this set still accomplishes proper OHKO's, and the like, with SR assuring some:
Ononokusu @Haban Berry/Life Orb/Leftovers
Mold-Breaker
Adamant Nature
176 HP/74 Atk/146 Def/124 Spe
-Dragon Dance
-Outrage
-EQ
-Taunt/Brick Break/Dragon Tail

Still reliably 2HKO'ing Scizor all the time after 1 DD while taking 45-53.4% from a CB Bullet Punch. It can also still OHKO Jirachi, and make ScarfRachi even more setup bait, taking only 30.3-35.9% from Iron Head, and Ice punch being able to 4HKO, or possibly 3HKO. Skarmory's brave bird is lessened to 32.3-38.3%, and gives you a free DD, in which your damage begans to outpace it. Gyro Balls also dont hurt nearly as much, even after a +1, helping with that previous problem.

I could go on about that set, but the main point is that with that bulk it makes up for it's attack just as fast by allowing for more DD's. Life Orb can also be used in that set, closing that gap of attack power immensely.
 
You're right. Attack does not need to be fully invested in, I was just trying to get my point across that Ono does need to have something that separates it from the other dragons.

That set looks like it would work well, because it does give Ono basically a free setup turn against scarfers who would revenge it, and when dealing with 147 base attack, that's deadly. However, as to speed, I don't understand what you mean by "missing out on Scarfchomp" It won't outspeed Scarfchomp after a DD anyway, and 60 speed lets it use 44 more EVs than if it used 124 speed.
 
What I meant by the outspeeding garchomp was in regards to getting a +2, which is all every Ono needs(usually) to outspeed every counter that may present itself. IMO, +2 should be a prime marker for it all times, meaning that if it can reach that marker it'll be able to capitolize fully when possibly sweeping a team. So in regards to having only 60 EV's in spe while also having an Adamant nature, Ono's gets to about 245. After one DD it's fast enough, but it'll lost the amazingness of +2 DD's which is outspeeding most of it's counters. With +2 DD's running 60 spe he'll only reach 490, which means it also misses out on outspeeding Scarfgon(by 2 points), ScarfRachi(by 2 points), and scafchomp(by 9 points).

That means that in the case Scarfchomp, it counters it more easily, even with Haban berry, since you may live through the first hit and DD, but wont outspeed it to KO back. While you can still K.O it instead of going for another DD, going for that extra DD is what can possibly make Ono really monsterous, and deal massive damage to most pokemon afterwards. That's also why I mentioned that you'll need some extra bulk to cope with the lack of spe, which is fine as long as it reduces the damage by a good bit.
 
I'm gonna run a set with this guy the same way I do with my Gyarados.

Impish nature (or maybe Careful, depending on how popular Special attacks get in Gen5)
252 HP
100 DEF
100 SPEED
56 SP. DEF
-Taunt
-Dragon Dance
-Outrage
-Shadow Claw/Earthquake
 
Ok, but doesn't that still mean less speed investment is needed? I mean, if its only missing Chomp by 9 points after 2 DD's then surely it doesnt need all of 124 EVs in Spe and, while needing more than 60, still has quite a bit more left over to invest in the bulk.

I mean with that logic, it looks to me as though it only needs 80 EVs in speed to achieve 500 after 2 DD's to outrun chomp, which still gives it 44 EVs leftover to invest elsewhere.
 
I would much rather run bulky DD Mence to be quite honest. It checks more stuff, plus it gets Intimidate and Roost.
 
If you want this thing to stand out, you need to fully invest in its Attack. It's no use looking at its weak points all the time, because then you'll miss what got us all hyped up in the first place - that huge Attack. Reducing the Attack EVs on an offensive Ono would be like trying to make Sazando a physical sweeper. Ono can't counter every Pokemon in the metagame - no Pokemon can do that (except possibly Arceus, but of course you have moveslot syndrome), so it's probably focus on what Ono can tear apart.
 
@Misty Swims: Gyarados does that kind of defensively EVed set a lot better because of Intimidate and its great defenses. Ono has neither, so it needs to run an offensive set.

@Gemerl: Yeah, you're right. And thanks to AxelLow too for pointing out those Scarfed Dragons.

@Ice-eyes: The extra bulk is not intended to act like bulky DDMence, taking hits repeatedly and dealing damage. It's where you put the EVs you aren't otherwise using so as to give Ono an extra turn to deal damage or setup, which pays off enormously with its base 147 attack.

@Lucindril: Like I said to Ice-eyes, and as AxelLow stated when proposing his bulky DD set, the extra bulk gives you turns to setup. Ono is not, and should never try to play a defensive role. The bulk is only there to help with sweeping.
 
Lucindril said:
If you want this thing to stand out, you need to fully invest in its Attack. It's no use looking at its weak points all the time, because then you'll miss what got us all hyped up in the first place - that huge Attack. Reducing the Attack EVs on an offensive Ono would be like trying to make Sazando a physical sweeper. Ono can't counter every Pokemon in the metagame - no Pokemon can do that (except possibly Arceus, but of course you have moveslot syndrome), so it's probably focus on what Ono can tear apart.
Click to expand...

Anyone ever though of a bulky Choice Band set?

Ononokusu@Choice Band
EVs: 196 HP / 252 Att / 60 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Shadow Claw

It could work considering that 432 Attack + Choice Band is going to hurt shitloads of things. Plus all those HP EVs means that it won't die to CB Weavile's Ice Shard either.
 
Why are we trying to give Ono bulk? It's true that his speed is a maor downer, but investing in bulk is the wrong way to go about imo. Give him enough speed to outspeed base 95's and below, and invest in an attack and speed.

A CB set is it's best set imo. A boosted Outrage is an amazing sight to behold. (Don't go spamming it though, you still can't 2HKO Skarm)

Edit: Bulky sets are just outclassed by Garchomp imo, who boasts significantly better defenses and typing. I know it's got nothing better to do, but that speed is still pretty useful for outspeeding base 90's. (Luke, The croc, etc)
 
The bulk is optional, and can be ran just as easily. We aren't saying that maxing attack isn't optional either, but simply proposing other sets. So if you want your max attack Ono, you can have it, while I'll invest in his decent base defense and HP to add to more bulk.

Just to help prove my point that attack EV's are still optional is what happens when Ono just has a adamant nature. With just an Adamant nature Ono has 363 attack already, which is more then a good majority of sweepers that have to invest in max attack stats. With just 74 attack EV's, Ono reaches 382, and with 134 attack EV's it has the same attack stat as jolly DD Quaza, who needed to invest 252 in attack to reach that. The same reason why so many people overhyped him is the same reason why some can't get around the fact that it doesn't need that massive of an attack (once again, Rayquaza, who only runs it's maximum attack power in SD sets).

With that, you can focus on a bulky set or other stats to help compliment it. Spe is one thing, which can be maxed or invested in enough to outspeed it's counters after 2 DD's. The speed it self doesn't need maxing since his 97 speed still wont get him anywhere special, and will still require 2 DD's to outspeed his counters. Heatran is the only other threatening thing for the 80 Spe EV Adamant Ono, which is then solved by having more bulk and a Haban Berry (Thanks to Gemerl for pointing out the 80 spe EV's).

Also, Bulky DD sets are not outclassed by Garchomp. If Garchomp had DD then yes, but it doesn't. Bulky SD Sets are outclassed by garchomp. And arguing that Chomp has better typing is not a good idea where Chomp takes huge damage from Ice, while Ono only takes x2. And Bulky DD set Ono's wont play like Bulky Mence's, let alone have the movepool to even be able to be played like it. While Mence can sweep at anytime, Ono still needs problems out of the way, securing a Mid-Late game sweeper spot for himself.

Investing in bulk is neither a wrong method either. The same can be said for him against the speed stats below him which he can either easily take out after 1 DD or not even bother with him. From there, because your not investing in so much speed it can easily make up for it with its 76 Hp (which is troll worthy since Kingdra only gets 75), and 90 Defense (which is good enough for him to stop so much damage from physical attacks which are most of his main problems).
 
The only reason you would use Ono over Chomp or Mence is his high attack. If you invest in bulk instead of capitalizing on his attack just to make him take hits as well as Mence, why aren't you just using Mence :/
 
If you haven't noticed, doesn't need much to already be stronger then common DD Rayquaza sets, so other EV's can be saved for bulk.
 
So it's a slower Mence rather than a frailer, slightly slower, slightly stronger Mence?

I guess it would be cool to run a bulkier set and it is pretty tough to OHKO which is nice but I don't know if I would be comfortable having what's essentially dead weight on your team other than sweeping because it doesn't really check anything.
 
Ice-eyes said:
So it's a slower Mence rather than a frailer, slightly slower, slightly stronger Mence?

I guess it would be cool to run a bulkier set and it is pretty tough to OHKO which is nice but I don't know if I would be comfortable having what's essentially dead weight on your team other than sweeping because it doesn't really check anything.
Click to expand...

This. It's the fact that Ono is doing as much damage as Rayquaza that makes him threatening. If you take away that power in exchange for bulk that is avaliable to Mence without investment, you are outclassed by Mence in most if not all situations.
 
I agree Ice. You'll have to be okay with Ono holding off for awhile on your team, meaning that your team needs to function well in the case that Ono isn't around. The selling point of it is as you mentioned which can mean a sweep when played correctly, even if it means coming in on it's counters to bluff it being on the weaker, more glass cannon side and setting up. Not to mention a few other selling points that it has such as the x2 weakness to Ice, Mold Breaker, and the likes, which can set it apart from Mence.
Also, Ono never really could check anything unless it was running a choiced set. It always required a DD or SD to actually prove to be threatening.

The bulky Ono set will play more like Bulky-Gyara when holding Taunt.
 
@Ice-eyes: The bulk just lets it take a hit and setup against its counters. AxelLow's point was that its attack is already high enough to work well even without significant investment. And the bulk can just be added on the side after the speed goal is reached; it just lets Ono not die instantly, as opposed to going 252/252/4 and taking up to 70% from Scizor's Bullet Punch.

And another thing, the SD set should be used to break down walls, and as such, requires little speed. The extra EVs can be placed in bulk, effectively creating a somewhat bulky wallbreaker. It does outclass Chomp in that regard because of its higher attack and better ability to break down walls.
 
Unless you're desperate to outspeed Gliscor, Roserade and Lucario, Ono doesn't need that much speed. If it had 100+ base speed, that'd be a different story, but it doesn't. Some sets could probably make room for max Attack with some bulk in there, too.
 
Lucindril said:
Unless you're desperate to outspeed Gliscor, Roserade and Lucario, Ono doesn't need that much speed. If it had 100+ base speed, that'd be a different story, but it doesn't. Some sets could probably make room for max Attack with some bulk in there, too.
Click to expand...

This, plus Cosmics post easily explain the reasoning as to why I posted what I posted. While you can max attack, you dont have to. While you can have max speed, it's not needed since he wont be getting anything special by doing so. Meaning that either way, bulk can be invested into it making it a sturdier sweeper. The bulk isn't meant for it to become a Mence or chomp, but meant for it to survive its counters.
 
In other words, Ono can function without a 252/252 stat spread, unlike some other dragons (glares at Flygon). It's good to know that he's not entirely limited to sweeping. I'm surprised they didn't give Ono any obvious drawbacks due to its Attack stat, like they did to Rampardos, Slaking and Regigigas, although I suppose their attack really is overkill.
 
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