Chandelure

KokoaKiwi said:
D: I'm confused. Von Hertzon actually agrees with me, but he_artic_one doesnt.
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xD

the arctic one said:
With all those common weaknesses, low hp, mediocre def, and lowish spe, he's going to have a hard time sweeping even if you do manage to set up 6 calm minds.
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Shanderaa (since you neglected to mention its positive qualities) does however have amazing sp. def which makes up for its lack of HP on the special side, the highest nonuber (as far as I'm aware) sp. atk stat there is, and its speed is good enough so that with a scarf it will be killer as long as its opponent isn't scarfed.

the arctic one said:
he's going to have a hard time sweeping even if you do manage to set up 6 calm minds.
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1. Throw in a nitro charge for good measure
2. Shadow Tag helps it come in on something it can set up on
3. 80 base speed isn't that bad
4. 6 calm minds and a thing that could take a special hit from that is a Pokemon god.
5. this is all the more reason to only ban shadow tag and not shanderaa
 
amazing? base 90 is not amazing. Scarfed shandeera is little more than a slightly buffed dugtrio.


What's interesting though is that no one bothers to mention a specs set with overheat. In the sun, that is almost equal to a kyogre's power.
 
MoogleEnsign said:
amazing? base 90 is not amazing. Scarfed shandeera is little more than a slightly buffed dugtrio.


What's interesting though is that no one bothers to mention a specs set with overheat. In the sun, that is almost equal to a kyogre's power.
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Yeah...it's 80 base speed. -_- 90 would be a true blessing, imo.
 
MoogleEnsign said:
amazing? base 90 is not amazing. Scarfed shandeera is little more than a slightly buffed dugtrio.


What's interesting though is that no one bothers to mention a specs set with overheat. In the sun, that is almost equal to a kyogre's power.
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so amazing isn't the right term...how about...OU material (since some standard sweepers boast that kinda defense stat). Also, most likely the reason for the lack of specs hype is because its speed is what needs boosting but I can see it. Working in sync with ninetales though makes me want to put a choice scarf on it cause then it already has the extra firepower from the sun and doesn't need the specs off that massive sp. atk stat.
 
before you can consider arguments for / against banning, you need to get out of the gen IV mentality. if, coming from gen III to gen IV, people saw tyranitar's new sandstorm boosted SpD and his physical pursuit and crunch, and decided to ban it prematurely just because by gen III standards that was something unheard of, then gen IV would have taken a completely different route from the one it did. from my limited knowledge of ADV, i can say that tyranitar made a massive range of things far less viable as DP emerged (things like EndRev strats and the effectiveness of many Pursuit weak / frail Pokemon, etc). but that is just how DP was meant to play out - tyranitar was meant to be a big factor in competitive play. in the days leading up to DP's release, you can imagine the kind of anxiousness this 'new' monster was causing.

similarly, we shouldn't really be looking to ban shanderaa until the gen V metagame is given a few months to settle down and adapt. tyranitar wiped out a whole host of strategies as well, but in the end it became a balanced yet highly influential element of the gen IV metagame. shaderaa may very well be a similar case, and we shouldn't be suggesting banning it atm. because right now, by virtue of the simple fact that there are people giving reasonable arguments for both sides, we can't definitively say one way or another, and won't be able to without serious battle experience with it and after the metagame has been given time to try and deal with it.
 
I'm cool with waiting until things have settled down a bit. Heck, we don't even know if we're getting Shadow Tag from the dream world any time soon.
 
Legacy Raider said:
before you can consider arguments for / against banning, you need to get out of the gen IV mentality. if, coming from gen III to gen IV, people saw tyranitar's new sandstorm boosted SpD and his physical pursuit and crunch, and decided to ban it prematurely just because by gen III standards that was something unheard of, then gen IV would have taken a completely different route from the one it did. from my limited knowledge of ADV, i can say that tyranitar made a massive range of things far less viable as DP emerged (things like EndRev strats and the effectiveness of many Pursuit weak / frail Pokemon, etc). but that is just how DP was meant to play out - tyranitar was meant to be a big factor in competitive play. in the days leading up to DP's release, you can imagine the kind of anxiousness this 'new' monster was causing.

similarly, we shouldn't really be looking to ban shanderaa until the gen V metagame is given a few months to settle down and adapt. tyranitar wiped out a whole host of strategies as well, but in the end it became a balanced yet highly influential element of the gen IV metagame. shaderaa may very well be a similar case, and we shouldn't be suggesting banning it atm. because right now, by virtue of the simple fact that there are people giving reasonable arguments for both sides, we can't definitively say one way or another, and won't be able to without serious battle experience with it and after the metagame has been given time to try and deal with it.
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Thank you! A Pokemon only deserves to be banned after it has had a chance to compete and has been proven broken.
 
Until Shadow Tag becomes an issue, Flash Fire Shanderaa seems like a less bulky Heatran with different typing. Its base 80 speed is not bad. With a Choice Scarf, Shanderaa makes for a fast-enough, powerful revenge killer that has 3 immunities. Speaking of which, it is immune to Extremespeed, Quick Attack, Mach Punch, and Vacuum Wave. It also resists Bullet Punch and Ice Shard!
 
yeah, so? Spiritomb resists most of azelfs movepool and look where it ended up.

Shandeera will simply mean choiced earthquakes make a comeback.
 
KokoaKiwi said:
Dude, this sounds like Electivire all over again.
"Switch in on a Thunder Wave and you can 6-0"
Or Weavile
"Swords Dance Life Orb Ice Punch with Jolly? Your team has a weavile weak."
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The only way I can see the Shanderaa hype being like that is that Shanderaa's durability in the metagame to come becomes more limited then initially perceived and that it would be harder then speculated for Shanderaa to come in and set up. Of course, if Shandy never gets Shadow Tag then the hype will be for nothing.
 
KokoaKiwi said:
Dude, this sounds like Electivire all over again.
"Switch in on a Thunder Wave and you can 6-0"
Or Weavile
"Swords Dance Life Orb Ice Punch with Jolly? Your team has a weavile weak."
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How does this have anything to do with an ability that completely prevents a Pokemon from switching out? I don't remember Electivire and Weavile doing that.

and btw, weavile weak is alive and well, you best believe it
 
Thorhammer said:
Banning OHKO moves is a far broader ban than just banning Shadow Tag from four Pokemon. Banning Shadow Tag is far more a direct change to Shanderaa specifically.

Furthermore, there's the matter of the reason behind the ban. OHKO moves and Evasion moves were banned not because Pokemon using them would become uber, but just because they added a pure luck factor to the game that in no way increased competitiveness. (At least, I assume it was something along those lines.)
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I said that banning all OHKO moves was akin to banning shadow tag only in the sense that we were not selectively banning OHKO moves from certain pokemon or selectively banning shadow tag from certain pokemon; the situation I was discussing was one in which all pokemon with shadow tag were found to be overpowered, hence a blanket ban on shadow tag. Note, as I will mention below, I am not saying that we shouldn't ban specific pokemon with specific abilities; I think there could indeed be situations in which we should.

Regarding your example of Politoed and Ninetales, first, let's back up a bit and establish that banning Shadow Tag is not akin to banning all OHKO moves. Banning Shadow Tag is akin to banning Sheer Cold. A comparison to banning all OHKO moves would be banning Shadow Tag, Arena Trap, and Magnet Pull. If it's really the ability to trap and not the Pokemon that uses it that's the problem, then all of those abilities should be banned. Would you say that all of those abilities should be banned?
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Not necessarily, because those abilities are weaker than shadow tag, as shadow tag offers no immunities (aside from shed shell, u-turn, etc). It could very well have been the case that immunities to fissure, guillitine, etc., were significant enough that these moves didn't need to be banned. It simply turned out that we decided that wasn't the case. In any event, this is not the main point I'm making.


Now that that's known, if Drizzle and Drought really turn out to be broken not because Ninetales and Politoed have them, but because they exist at all, regardless of the Pokemon that have them, then a ban against auto Sun/Rain abilities would be more reasonable, because it really is the ability that's broken. However, with Shanderaa, it's only the combination of the ability and the Pokemon that is broken, not the ability alone. Therefore, banning Shadow Tag is entirely different from a hypothetical, unlikely ban of Drizzle and Drought.
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Exactly. The above post of mine was operating under the hypothetical scenario that shadow tag proved to be broken on all fully evolved pokemon with the ability, hence my analogy to drought and drizzle.
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Now then, let me explicity state some assumptions and my positions on them, just to be clear:

1) Shadow tag clause: A clause that we would enforce if it were found that shadow tag were broken on all (at least fully evolved) pokemon. If all fully evolved pokemon are found to be broken with shadow tag, then it should be shadow tag as a whole that is considered broken and banned, not the pokemon which have shadow tag (or drought, drizzle, etc).

2) Shadow Tag only broken on certain pokemon: It is certainly possible that shadow tag is not in itself broken, but that a pokemon using the ability is broken. In this case, that pokemon itself should be banned.

However, that does NOT mean the species itself should be banned, just those pokemon that are actually using the ability. If a pokemon is only broken because of its ability, then I see no reason why we should ban other versions without the ability that makes it broken. A shandera with shadow tag and a shandera with flash fire could very well prove to be competitively different pokemon. Shadow tag shandera and flash fire shandera could fill different niches in the metagame, so I think it is a poor decision to ban flash fire shandera on the basis that shadow tag shandera is broken (if it were deemed to be).

I realize it's more complicated to tier pokemon with specific abilities, but I do not think it's uncalled for when the different abilities result in pokemon with different niches. When forms were introduced, the shaymin and rotom forms ended up being tiered differently. I realize that in this case the stat-distributions were different and it is not the same as what I am discussing here, but I think that tiering based on abilities is not a great leap in tiering logic. Drizzle Politoed could be a far different beast than regular old damp politoed. They fill very different roles in the metagame, so aside from the added complication in tiering based on abilities, I don't think it is at all unreasonable to consider the same species of pokemon competitively different if they have different choices for abilities which allow them to fill different roles in the metagame.

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This said, I think a lot of this complication is coming from the dream world abilities. These abilities are meant to be rare and make the pokemon with them more powerful than their non-dream world counterparts, so it makes sense to consider the possibility of tiering dream world pokemon differently than their non-dream world counterparts, simply because the dream world versions are (generally) meant to be that much more powerful. I realize not everyone will agree with this, but I think that if a pokemon fills different roles in the metagame depending on its abilities, then tiering them based on just "the most powerful" choice of ability is not an ideal situation.

Let me summarize (tl;dr version): If the most significant reason a pokemon is deemed to be broken is because of its ability (i.e., without that ability it would not be found to be broken), we should give serious consideration to tiering that pokemon differently based on its abilities.

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That all said, let's shelve the banning discussions for now and get back to discussing different options for the ghost. We can cross the tiering bridge again when we actually come to it (if we even do).
 
I think shandeera is pretty good. The metagame will just have to adapt to it

Example Log

Start of turn 9
Tyranitar used Stone Edge!
The foe's Cresselia lost 13% of its health!

The foe's Cresselia used Moonlight!
The foe's Cresselia regained health!

The sandstorm rages!
The foe's Cresselia is buffeted by the sandstorm!
Tyranitar is hurt by poison!
The foe's Cresselia restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 10
-PLUSLE- called Tyranitar back!
-PLUSLE- sent out Shanderaa!

The foe's Cresselia used Moonlight!
The foe's Cresselia regained health!

The sandstorm rages!
Shanderaa is buffeted by the sandstorm!
The foe's Cresselia is buffeted by the sandstorm!
Shanderaa restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Cresselia restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 11
Shanderaa used Substitute!
Shanderaa made a substitute!

The foe's Cresselia used Toxic!
Shanderaa's substitute blocked Toxic!

The sandstorm rages!
Shanderaa is buffeted by the sandstorm!
The foe's Cresselia is buffeted by the sandstorm!
Shanderaa restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Cresselia restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 12
Shanderaa used Calm Mind!
Shanderaa's Sp. Att. rose!
Shanderaa's Sp. Def. rose!

The foe's Cresselia used Ice Beam!
It's not very effective...
Shanderaa's substitute took the damage!

Lady Umb's reflect wore off!
The sandstorm rages!
Shanderaa is buffeted by the sandstorm!
The foe's Cresselia is buffeted by the sandstorm!
Shanderaa restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Cresselia restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 13
Shanderaa used Calm Mind!
Shanderaa's Sp. Att. rose!
Shanderaa's Sp. Def. rose!

The foe's Cresselia used Ice Beam!
It's not very effective...
Shanderaa's substitute took the damage!

The sandstorm rages!
Shanderaa is buffeted by the sandstorm!
The foe's Cresselia is buffeted by the sandstorm!
Shanderaa restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Cresselia restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 14
Shanderaa used Calm Mind!
Shanderaa's Sp. Att. rose!
Shanderaa's Sp. Def. rose!

The foe's Cresselia used Ice Beam!
It's not very effective...
Shanderaa's substitute took the damage!

The sandstorm rages!
Shanderaa is buffeted by the sandstorm!
The foe's Cresselia is buffeted by the sandstorm!
Shanderaa restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Cresselia restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 15
Shanderaa used Calm Mind!
Shanderaa's Sp. Att. rose!
Shanderaa's Sp. Def. rose!

The foe's Cresselia used Ice Beam!
It's not very effective...
Shanderaa's substitute faded!

The sandstorm rages!
Shanderaa is buffeted by the sandstorm!
The foe's Cresselia is buffeted by the sandstorm!
Shanderaa restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Cresselia restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 16
Shanderaa used Calm Mind!
Shanderaa's Sp. Att. rose!
Shanderaa's Sp. Def. rose!

The foe's Cresselia used Ice Beam!
It's not very effective...
Shanderaa lost 9 HP! (3% of its health)

The sandstorm rages!
Shanderaa is buffeted by the sandstorm!
The foe's Cresselia is buffeted by the sandstorm!
Shanderaa restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Cresselia restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 17
Shanderaa used Substitute!
Shanderaa made a substitute!

The foe's Cresselia used Ice Beam!
It's not very effective...
Shanderaa's substitute took the damage!

The sandstorm rages!
Shanderaa is buffeted by the sandstorm!
The foe's Cresselia is buffeted by the sandstorm!
Shanderaa restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Cresselia restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 18
Shanderaa used Calm Mind!
Shanderaa's Sp. Att. rose!
Shanderaa's Sp. Def. rose!

The foe's Cresselia used Ice Beam!
It's not very effective...
Shanderaa's substitute took the damage!

The sandstorm rages!
Shanderaa is buffeted by the sandstorm!
The foe's Cresselia is buffeted by the sandstorm!
Shanderaa restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Cresselia restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 19
Shanderaa used Shadow Ball!
It's super effective!
The foe's Cresselia lost 63% of its health!
The foe's Cresselia fainted!

The sandstorm rages!
Shanderaa is buffeted by the sandstorm!
Shanderaa restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Lady Umb sent out Urugamosu!
Pointed stones dug into the foe's Urugamosu!

Start of turn 20
The foe's Urugamosu used Fire Blast!
It's not very effective...
Shanderaa's substitute took the damage!

Shanderaa used Shadow Ball!
The foe's Urugamosu lost 40% of its health!
The foe's Urugamosu fainted!

The sandstorm rages!
Shanderaa is buffeted by the sandstorm!
Shanderaa restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Lady Umb sent out Latias!
Pointed stones dug into the foe's Latias!

Start of turn 21
The foe's Latias used Surf!
It's super effective!
A critical hit!
Shanderaa's substitute faded!

Shanderaa used Shadow Ball!
It's super effective!
The foe's Latias lost 77% of its health!
The foe's Latias fainted!

The sandstorm rages!
Shanderaa is buffeted by the sandstorm!
Shanderaa restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Lady Umb sent out Torunerosu!
Pointed stones dug into the foe's Torunerosu!

Lady Umb: Alright

Start of turn 22
The foe's Torunerosu used Substitute!
The foe's Torunerosu made a substitute!

Shanderaa used Shadow Ball!
The foe's Torunerosu's substitute faded!

The sandstorm rages!
The foe's Torunerosu is buffeted by the sandstorm!
Shanderaa is buffeted by the sandstorm!
Shanderaa restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 23
The foe's Torunerosu used Substitute!
The foe's Torunerosu made a substitute!
The foe's Torunerosu ate its Petaya Berry!
The Petaya Berry raised the foe's Torunerosu's Sp. Att.!

Shanderaa used Substitute!
Shanderaa made a substitute!

The sandstorm rages!
The foe's Torunerosu is buffeted by the sandstorm!
Shanderaa is buffeted by the sandstorm!
Shanderaa restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 24
The foe's Torunerosu used Gale!
A critical hit!
Shanderaa's substitute faded!

Shanderaa used Shadow Ball!
The foe's Torunerosu's substitute faded!

The sandstorm rages!
The foe's Torunerosu is buffeted by the sandstorm!
Shanderaa is buffeted by the sandstorm!
Shanderaa restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 25
The foe's Torunerosu used Gale!
Shanderaa lost 58 HP! (22% of its health)
Shanderaa fainted!

The sandstorm rages!
The foe's Torunerosu is buffeted by the sandstorm!
The foe's Torunerosu fainted!

-PLUSLE- won the battle!

As you can see Cresellia let me set up. The metagame will have to adapt.
Skarm will run shed shell,blissey will run shadow ball etc


 
A counter needs to be able to switch into the Pokemon it's countering and force it out with little to no risk to itself. Switch Shaymin-S into Scarf Shandy's Fire Blast and let me how it goes.
 
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