Chandelure

RocketSurgery said:
I thought Ditto copied the choice scarf boost too, and then got its own scarf boost on top of it? That was what I got from the Ditto thread; perhaps I misunderstood.
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Not in the actual game, apparently. I had a Scarf Hihidaruma out against a Ditto and was able to go first and Rock Slide it for the kill.
 
i just noticed that shandera gets both overheat and flash fire. he could use a choice specs set similar to heatrans trading bulk for power and speed
here's something off the top of my head:
Shandera@Choice Specs
Flash Fire
Modest
252 SPA/252 SPE/4 HP
Overheat
Shadow Ball
HP Ground/Fighting
Psychic (does he get a better move than this?)

I don't know where i can do Gen 5 damage calcs but specs heatran without a flash fire boost can OHKO tyranitar with overheat so overheat from specs overheat from shandera will be serious overkill for any t-tar that switches in
 
millz said:
i just noticed that shandera gets both overheat and flash fire. he could use a choice specs set similar to heatrans trading bulk for power and speed
here's something off the top of my head:
Shandera@Choice Specs
Flash Fire
Modest
252 SPA/252 SPE/4 HP
Overheat
Shadow Ball
HP Ground/Fighting
Psychic (does he get a better move than this?)

I don't know where i can do Gen 5 damage calcs but specs heatran without a flash fire boost can OHKO tyranitar with overheat so overheat from specs overheat from shandera will be serious overkill for any t-tar that switches in
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Nah. Specstran does 55% - 64.9% to 4/0 T-tar with a Flash Fire boost.
 
millz said:
I don't know where i can do Gen 5 damage calcs but specs heatran without a flash fire boost can OHKO tyranitar with overheat so overheat from specs overheat from shandera will be serious overkill for any t-tar that switches in
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You can use Smogon's calculator to get estimates (assuming slight changes to the damage formula). You just have to put the gen 5 pokemon's stats in by hand.

I actually calculated a bunch of shandera's attacks against a 0 HP/0 SpDef Tyranitar in sandstorm, and shandera was barely making a dent. With the sandstorm SpDef boost, an HP Fighting from shandera doesn't even come close to taking Ttar down. Without the sandstorm you still need stealth rock or spikes damage to take a 0/0 Ttar down with HP fighting. The max damage was around 97% out of sandstorm.

Shandera's stabbed attacks faired much worse than HP fighting due to Ttar's resistance. I didn't check energy ball, but being 80 base power and unstabbed, I doubt it would dent Ttar either, since a 4x effective 70 BP attack doesn't do anything either.

Basically, unless someone sends in a tension Ttar on Shandera so that there's no sandstorm boost, Shandera is pretty much a goner.

Edit: I screwed up the calculation. See my next post for correction.
 
Turns out I screwed up the calculation. I chose HP fighting as the attack but didn't notice that I had to manually adjust the IVs to actually get the correct hidden power. So, with this corrected, I find that a 0 HP/0 SpDef Ttar with a neutral nature in sandstorm will take 71.6% - 84.5% damage from Shandera's HP fighting. Without sandstorm, 106.7% - 126.7%. If I give Ttar a +SpDef nature, 65.7% - 77.4% in sandstorm. With Life Orb, Shandera does 84.5% - 99.7% in Sandstorm against Sassy Ttar (+SpDef). With choice specs 97.4% - 115% against Sassy Ttar in sandstorm.

The IV spread for Shandera is 31 HP, 30 in everything else. This gets Shandera up to a SpAtk of 426 with a Modest nature and 252 EV investment. I'm not sure if it's possible to get a spread with 31 SpAtk IV & HP fighting. So, it's not quite as grim as I thought, but that's still a 0/0 Ttar, and it will almost certainly be in sandstorm, so Ttar will need to take some entry hazard damage before HP fighting can KO it.

With HP ground we get the full 31 SpAtk IV.
 
IIRC, hp fighting demands 30 IVs per stats, but we get the point.
>_______> Now I want to use Shandy again, she's so cute and can pretty much 2KO everything with neutral or SE attacks. So sexy *-*


Edit @Millz
Energy Ball over Psychic.
Energy ball is a decent option for hitting grounds, rocks, and waters mildly hard.
It can also OHKO swampert and all those water/grounds and water/rocks, who otherwise are decent counters to Shandy.
 
Yeah, I wanted to look into it since people seemed to be running HP Ground, and I was wondering why not HP fighting to deal with Ttar or other dark pursuiters, which I would be more worried about since if they come in your only hope to save Shandera is to kill the foe before it kills you. It looks like with some entry hazards set up HP fighting can at least take a big chunk out of Ttar, so if Shandera can't kill it out right it can hopefully leave Ttar in revenge killing range. Other less bulky dark type pursuiters can hopefully be taken out completely.
 
cosmicexplorer said:
That's a perfectly good post, and welcome to Smogon!

I'd personally use something bulkier than Ambipom, so that they'll definitely use a fighting or other type move. Without any investment in its defenses, Shanderaa is pretty frail, and a Starmie or something could come in to Ambipom and try to KO with Hydro Pump/strong STAB move. Perhaps a Gliscor, to attract resisted Ice Beams? But Starmie or any Water type can hit that with their STAB move just as well, so it may not work so well. Just an idea.

EDIT: @420: Support Clause does exist, you can find the clause definitions in Policy Review somewhere; I don't know exactly which thread they're in.
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Thanks :). Yeah I see what you mean I was just using ambipom as an example of something that could pass it a speed boost to help make up for shanderra's mediocre speed.
 
I wouldn't expect shadow tag to make it into OU guys. Not in this form, at least. Its just far too good at trapping and killing, practically guaranteeing that you will loose a poke every time it switches in. Not to mention the fact that it can switch INTO Blissy, and set up a sweep while preventing it from getting away. IE: switch a defensive poke into a U-turn, probably going to loose that match as Shandera sets up, takes it out, and then takes out whatever you switch in next.

No no no, no Shadow Tag in OU. Wobs was bad enough.

Back to my origonal thought, countering this thing will be a pain. Your basicly going to need a faster ghost or dark type, or bait out what its coverage move is. If its Energy Ball, dont expect to stop it with bulky water types. If its HP Ground or Fighting, Heatran is right out and TTar is hesitant at best.

Heck, you could potentially run both, since Shandy doesn't rely on HP grass for a grass move.
 
lol, Implying Doryuuzu can't do the same without shadow tag.
No seriously, we all tested Shadow Tag A LOT (personally, I tested it for ~100 battles before moving on to Flash Fire). It guarantees a kill or 2 at most, but evenso...that's slightly low for this "metagame"'s standards. There's a clusterfuck of pokes that can actually take on Shandera. >_> It's alredy been discussed a lot of times.
Edit:Shadow Tag Shandera doesn't even legally exist yet.
 
As I understand it, in gen 5 you will be able to see your opponents entire team and vice versa before choosing which pokemon you send out? If so, shanderaa is made a lot less dangerous. If your opponent has one, you just have to be very cautious with choiced pokemon, and NEVER used choiced fighting moves. IMO This guy actually seems a little easier to take care of than wobbuffet, as wobs massive hp and ensured it was almost never 2hkod, and it had encore on top of that
 
ajajayjay said:
As I understand it, in gen 5 you will be able to see your opponents entire team and vice versa before choosing which pokemon you send out? If so, shanderaa is made a lot less dangerous. If your opponent has one, you just have to be very cautious with choiced pokemon, and NEVER used choiced fighting moves. IMO This guy actually seems a little easier to take care of than wobbuffet, as wobs massive hp and ensured it was almost never 2hkod, and it had encore on top of that
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Oh God this. I keep forgetting about this crap. However, this makes a bit more useful my Balloon set, with 5 immunities. The opponet might just attempt to spam choice'd EQs, when along comes the balloon'd chandelier.
 
RocketSurgery said:
It's slightly disappointing that the game apparently alerts the foe that your guy is wearing the balloon, so if your foe is paying attention s/he won't waste an earthquake/earthpower on you. It's probably the first item I'll slap on shandera if I every find the time to play.
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That's too bad...

As for the Sub/CM/Nitro Charge/filler sets, Shadow Ball could actually work with an Aiming Mark (lets it hit Normal types).
 
Gabe said:
So for those of you who have fought Shandeera, what's the best counter for it?
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*Doryuuzu, heatran, tyranitar, sazandra, u-turners...

*Pretty much anything that's faster and has a super effective move. 60/90/90 isn't bulky for this gen's standars, so far at least.

*Weather teams also murder her. Erufuun can stall it, to an extent.

*Almost every dark type, especially T-Tar (again) and Houndoom.

*Ditto
 
T-Tar like all ghost is the ban for Shandera, but still like all the other ghost it still can find use in the meta game. I haven't tried it but I saw many battles with it. It seems the choiced Shandera's are the best due to the fact they can switch in, hit hard and switch out later.
 
EpicTurtle said:
T-Tar like all ghost is the ban for Shandera, but still like all the other ghost it still can find use in the meta game. I haven't tried it but I saw many battles with it. It seems the choiced Shandera's are the best due to the fact they can switch in, hit hard and switch out later.
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Shanderaa's only real defense against T-Tar is purgatory. At least if it runs this D-Dance T-Tar can't set up on you (unless it has a lum berry...) without being crippled.
 
Modest Shandera is a 100% sure 2KO on Sassy T-Tar, lol. HP Fighting WILL beat T-Tar if you manage to predict incredibly well or pull some crazy stunts. Or catch it in the switch. Shadow Tag is banned, remember? ;3
 
I think with the ability Shadow Tag, this set should work:

Shandera @ leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Speed / 4 Def
Moveset:
Acid Armor
Calm mind
Flamethrower
Rest

Switch it in an Infernape(choice)/Snorlax/Scizor/Blissey/Brozong/Dusknoir... With 252 HP and Acid Armor, it laughs at all of their attacks. After boosting +6 stage Def, +6 Special Atk and +6 Special Def and rest to recover fully HP, it is time to say "good game" for your opponent if he doesn't have a flash fire pokemon.
 
SuperGeneration said:
I think with the ability Shadow Tag, this set should work:

Shandera @ leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Speed / 4 Def
Moveset:
Acid Armor
Calm mind
Flamethrower
Rest

Switch it in an Infernape(choice)/Snorlax/Scizor/Blissey/Brozong/Dusknoir... With 252 HP and Acid Armor, it laughs at all of their attacks. After boosting +6 stage Def, +6 Special Atk and +6 Special Def and rest to recover fully HP, it is time to say "good game" for your opponent if he doesn't have a flash fire pokemon.
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Good luck pulling that out. Doryuuzu always beats you one on one, unless he is retard and comes in after you finish setting up.
 
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