Yeah, this thing is amazing. One of the absolute support pokemon. Kind of makes his SpA stat almost useless it's so sad. If you swapped that stat with it's HP we'd have a support GOD on our hands with Vaporean level wishing. I run dual screen with Light Clay. It LOVES switching into Brellom who is almost guaranteed to Spore and Erufuun and Mischievous Heart Borotorosu. After a bounce, set up a screen while they switch, two if you're faster, then get out of there. Now they know better before trying to cripple your side again. Free Espy switch. Can't be Roared either.
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Espeon
- Thread starter Move_Zero
- Start date
Yeah, Psycho Shock is cool, I did take a Blissey down, I'm sure my opponent didn't see it coming.
It also OHKOs a full health Tentacruel, which is really cool because I'm sure Psychic can't do this due to Tentacruel's impressive special bulk.
Psycho Shock is a double edged sword, though. The Bulk Up fighting types will actually be able to survive it and probably OHKO with a dark or neutral move because of Espeon's poor defense.
Just a quick question:
Is Espeon a complete Erufuun stop? I would hate to use Espeon for ONLY buffering Erufuun away, and it has a lot of issues to cope with like the new numerous threats that are currently swimming in Generation Five.
Don't get me wrong, I love Espeon, more than Alakazam, but this thing has ISSUES.
Is Espeon a complete Erufuun stop? I would hate to use Espeon for ONLY buffering Erufuun away, and it has a lot of issues to cope with like the new numerous threats that are currently swimming in Generation Five.
Don't get me wrong, I love Espeon, more than Alakazam, but this thing has ISSUES.
Oh, i can say Espeon doesn't really have huge problems (it does, but it... doesn't), even with thousands of new threats.
Basically:
My team with Espeon = somewhat sucessuful until now
I took Espeon out of my team, and i suddenly started sucking lol
Despite new threats, this thing here has base 110 speed and 130 SpA. It seems people keep forgetting about that.
I, for example, use Reflect/Wish/Calm Mind/Psychic with 252 HP/ 252 Spe EVs on my Espeon so it can support as well as going for a sweep when needed (as long as dark pokes are out of the way).
It's handy against stall, who greatly struggles against it (no need for Psycho Shock; it would be lame if Ditto switched in), it's fast enough to outspeed many threats too.
And leading with it as a bad idea.
Basically:
My team with Espeon = somewhat sucessuful until now
I took Espeon out of my team, and i suddenly started sucking lol
Despite new threats, this thing here has base 110 speed and 130 SpA. It seems people keep forgetting about that.
I, for example, use Reflect/Wish/Calm Mind/Psychic with 252 HP/ 252 Spe EVs on my Espeon so it can support as well as going for a sweep when needed (as long as dark pokes are out of the way).
It's handy against stall, who greatly struggles against it (no need for Psycho Shock; it would be lame if Ditto switched in), it's fast enough to outspeed many threats too.
And leading with it as a bad idea.
I started with that set, but I found that calm mind was dead weight. Psychic isn't the best attack type, and it's hard to pull of a sweep with just that one attack, especially with sazandora and ttar everywhere. I ended up replacing it with grass knot, but I might go the trick route next because I never use grass knot either.
Only using status moves cautiously and U-Turning to T-Tar can counter an Espeon switch in on Erufuun. Still. it's enough to make you want to run Grass Knot for T-Tar.
Roobushin is handled nicely by Espeon, most variants are OHKOed by Timid Espeon's Psychic. It'll probably switch out, though.
IMO every Espeon should at least run Baton Pass and Psychic, if only for Roobushin and T-Tar.
I know Magic Guard Alakazam hasn't been released yet, but comparing Espeon to DW Alakazam is silly. They're nothing alike this Gen.
You started? I was using this since gen 4 lol
And see on first page the exact same set.
Anyway: that's a "pertners question" IMO
I pair it with Dugtrio to get rid of Tyranitar (i believe Scarf can't KO Espeon with Pursuit after Reflect. ALWAYS start with Reflect by the way).
Sazandora is another issue though.
Also, if you take off Dark pokes, only Psychic and Steel resists Psychic attacks. Not a whole lot, and that's somewhat good IMO. Bad thing is that both types are common.
I like CM myself because, without it, you're wasting Espeon sweeping potential. But if you go offensive with CM, you're wasting it's great support capacity. So i go with both.
Pure support Espy is also good. But i just can't let that 130 SpA go.
I've been trying a baton passing espeon in PO and it have had her degree of success.
as with all the Baton pass teams, you need to play it almost perfectly but once teh chain is properly setup is almost completly foolproof.
i don't remember the evs right now.. but i believe they are full HP and SPdef, and the set is like this:
@leftovers.
-Baton Pass
-Calm Mind
-Substitute
-Assist Power
the idea here is to recieve a decent speed bonus and big defense bonus, which are provided by a leading blaziken (Speed Boost) and a specially bulky vaporeon (Acid Armor).
since vaporeon is so awesome bulky and acid armor quickly patches his not so awesome defenses, once you get your first defense boost, is quite easy to get the other 2.
sometimes you need to switch earlier if for example the oponent wises up and try to taunt you or phaze you but with at least 2 acid armors espeon will get workable defenses (backed up by the full HP evs) and a great spd def, then you sub for protecting against crits and dragon tail and start calm minding to make yourself an defensive behemont (immunity to roar, status, dragon tail, crits, +4 or+6 def, excellent spd def, you get the idea) and when the opponnent believes you are just defensive, you unleash your triumph card.
let's get an example, if you managed to get +2 speed and +6 def, after 1 calm mind your assit power BP is 220 (20+40+120+40), now factoring STAB and the sp Atk boost you get a 440 attack coming from a decent sp atk just with one calm mind. enough for 2ko almost anything even if it resist it.
lets add another calm mind to the math (220+40) 260 BP * 2 (+2 spatk)=520BP * 1.5 STAB = 760 BP...the only thing that doesn't get raped by that are dark types, so it's still kinda balanced.
for darkies put something on the chain who can quickly dispatch them (if your vaporeon is healthy is still going to do a lot of damage with +2 surfs), a toxic umbreon is also an option, or .. well be creative.
this obviously isn't a WIN-WIN strategy since even if teh chain isn't that long, you still need a lot of skill to get to espy with the ideal setting. and an excelent palyer still could break teh chain if he moves his pieces flawlessly, but the same could be said of almost anything. :P
as with all the Baton pass teams, you need to play it almost perfectly but once teh chain is properly setup is almost completly foolproof.
i don't remember the evs right now.. but i believe they are full HP and SPdef, and the set is like this:
@leftovers.
-Baton Pass
-Calm Mind
-Substitute
-Assist Power
the idea here is to recieve a decent speed bonus and big defense bonus, which are provided by a leading blaziken (Speed Boost) and a specially bulky vaporeon (Acid Armor).
since vaporeon is so awesome bulky and acid armor quickly patches his not so awesome defenses, once you get your first defense boost, is quite easy to get the other 2.
sometimes you need to switch earlier if for example the oponent wises up and try to taunt you or phaze you but with at least 2 acid armors espeon will get workable defenses (backed up by the full HP evs) and a great spd def, then you sub for protecting against crits and dragon tail and start calm minding to make yourself an defensive behemont (immunity to roar, status, dragon tail, crits, +4 or+6 def, excellent spd def, you get the idea) and when the opponnent believes you are just defensive, you unleash your triumph card.
let's get an example, if you managed to get +2 speed and +6 def, after 1 calm mind your assit power BP is 220 (20+40+120+40), now factoring STAB and the sp Atk boost you get a 440 attack coming from a decent sp atk just with one calm mind. enough for 2ko almost anything even if it resist it.
lets add another calm mind to the math (220+40) 260 BP * 2 (+2 spatk)=520BP * 1.5 STAB = 760 BP...the only thing that doesn't get raped by that are dark types, so it's still kinda balanced.
for darkies put something on the chain who can quickly dispatch them (if your vaporeon is healthy is still going to do a lot of damage with +2 surfs), a toxic umbreon is also an option, or .. well be creative.
this obviously isn't a WIN-WIN strategy since even if teh chain isn't that long, you still need a lot of skill to get to espy with the ideal setting. and an excelent palyer still could break teh chain if he moves his pieces flawlessly, but the same could be said of almost anything. :P
I can confirm that Jolly Scarf Tyranitar can't OHKO 0/0 Espeon if it stays in, or through a Reflect, even if it switches out. Still, Baton Pass is an awesome option with Calm Mind and Reflect, enough to make me pass up it's not-so-effective Wish. Psychic/Psycho Shock as the sole offense is fine.
Also, Sazandora can't trap Espeon; it doesn't learn Pursuit, and even if it did, it would be weaker than Jolly T-Tars.
I agree that wasting 130 Special Attack would be tragic. If you don't run Psychic, Roobushin will make you wish you did. Psychic is a much better attacking type this Gen.
Here's a lead set I whipped up with the above thought in mind... probably could use some tweaking, as I just loosely threw it together.
Espeon @ Focus Sash / Lum Berry
Ability: Magic Mirror
Nature: Timid
EVs: 4 / 252 / 252
- Psychic / Psycho Shock
- Hidden Power (Fire)
- Grass Knot
- Quick Attack
Basically, it's an Anti-Lead set. I took a quick peek at the Leads thread to get an idea of what sort of things Espeon is going to want to counter, and used that for the moves. Psychic VS Psycho Shock is your obligatory STAB; normally I'd say Psycho Shock for sure, but I don't know that many leads bulk up on Special Defense, so hitting them on their SDef with Psychic shouldn't be too problematic. :0 HP Fire is for Erufuun, Agiruuda, Skarmory, and all the other Grass / Bug / Steel leads that might be showing up. Grass Knot, then, is for heavy things like Hippowdon, which is bound to be common, plus Gigaiath and Swampert and stuff. Quick Attack is for finishing Sashers / Sturdy Pokes.
Alternatively, the set could be modified as a non-lead hazard-setup counter with the same moves... only Psycho Shock would probably be more useful, and Quick Attack should be replaced with a miscellaneous team utility move like Wish, Reflect, etc. depending on the spread you use; also, the item should be changed to Life Orb, Lefties, Expert Belt, etc. Anyway, it basically plays the same only it isn't a lead. You just switch it in to something that definitely wants to set up on you, like say... Skarmory, and stop them in their tracks. Mainly both versions of the set are designed to get hazard-users out of the way in addition to stopping their setup with MM.
Espeon as a lead is just such a waste of potential and surprise. No Eruufun is going to stay in to get a bounced status back, they're just going to U Turn into a Dark type and you wasted a Psychic attack. However, nothing screams awesome like them leading with Mischievous Heart Erufuun or Borotorosu and you reflect their paralysis attack back in their face. Or into a Hippowdon or Swampert that is going to use Stealth Rock. After they're crippled, they're bound to switch if the former, or attack on the latter. Reguardless that's when you set up your screens. If Espeon can manage to kill something, great, but it's best success for me is throwing him out to bounce a support attack back, throw up a screen, then amscray and let something stat up like a Bulk Up Roopushin, Calm Mind Jirachi, or Dragon Dance Ononokusu. They'll think twice about trying to status you knowing an Espeon is in the wings.
I don't know if you were addressing me specifically or the posters in this thread in general, but I'll just pretend you were talking to me... I think you're probably right about the whole lead thing. So, here's my Anti-Lead Espy set above, modified to be a non-lead, offensive status bouncer or whatever.
Espeon @ Life Orb / Expert Belt
Ability: Magic Mirror
Nature: Timid
EVs: 4 / 252 / 252
- Psycho Shock / Psychic
- Hidden Power (Fire)
- Grass Knot
- Wish / Yawn / Reflect
Yawn is something I just thought of... Espy's Magic Mirror may be great, but it doesn't fix its problem of below-average Defense... I suspect teams that rely on getting multiple layers up will probably carry an Espy counter to deal with it, so Yawn can be used on an Espy switch-in to force it back out again, or take the now-more-deadly sleep. Reflect can be used to fix the aforementioned Defensive problem as well, or Wish for random Wish support during all the crazy switches Espy will be causing.
Better?
^Why Wish? I like your Yawn idea.
Is HP Fire for Metagross? He'll probably be holding an Occa Berry (not that it would come close to OHKOing anyway,) and will pound Espeon's head in. For Forretress leads maybe?
Grass Knot is a totally legit move for Hippowdon. Psycho Shock/Psychic are a given.
Is HP Fire for Metagross? He'll probably be holding an Occa Berry (not that it would come close to OHKOing anyway,) and will pound Espeon's head in. For Forretress leads maybe?
Grass Knot is a totally legit move for Hippowdon. Psycho Shock/Psychic are a given.
Hehe, thanks. :3 Naw but I say Wish because, again, Espy will be forcing switches. :0 I figure that's an ideal time to use Wish for someone to switch in and get healed on, but then, maybe Yawn and Reflect are superior options.
As for HP Fire, I outlined its (and Grass Knot's) potential uses when I first posted the thread.
Also it works for Skarmory, Nattorei, and Forretress (so basically obligatory Steel coverage; Fire > Fighting in this case IMO). The idea is not only to bounce the hazards back at them, but to eliminate them outright so they can't try anything later after Espy gets KO'd or whatever. :0
A great strategy I thought of: Use a Multi-Scale Dragon Dancing Dragonite in combination with a Magic Mirror Espeon with Yawn.
When the opponent tries to use entry hazards, send out Espeon to reflect the hazards back to them. This also prevents Stealth Rock from cancelling Dragonite's Multi-Scale.
Now, spam Yawn as the opponent either switches their Pokémon around repeatedly and rack up damage on their team by the entry hazards they set up upon themselves, or they'll be forced to knock out Espeon while falling asleep.
Now, send in Dragonite, set up against their sleeping Pokémon and proceed to deal a significant amount of damage to the opponent's team. Dragonite is the most effective Pokémon for this strategy as Multi-Scale pretty much guarantees that it cannot be revenge-killed by any single Pokémon other than a Choice Scarf Ononokusu (as Mold Breaker allows its Outrage to bypass Multi-Scale).
Be careful of Lum Berry holders or Pokémon with U-turn though.
When the opponent tries to use entry hazards, send out Espeon to reflect the hazards back to them. This also prevents Stealth Rock from cancelling Dragonite's Multi-Scale.
Now, spam Yawn as the opponent either switches their Pokémon around repeatedly and rack up damage on their team by the entry hazards they set up upon themselves, or they'll be forced to knock out Espeon while falling asleep.
Now, send in Dragonite, set up against their sleeping Pokémon and proceed to deal a significant amount of damage to the opponent's team. Dragonite is the most effective Pokémon for this strategy as Multi-Scale pretty much guarantees that it cannot be revenge-killed by any single Pokémon other than a Choice Scarf Ononokusu (as Mold Breaker allows its Outrage to bypass Multi-Scale).
Be careful of Lum Berry holders or Pokémon with U-turn though.
You think Espeon might become OU? I'd LOVE to see that!
Azure Demon
Guest
Dan Dan hp ice and also signal beam come to mind when you say that
Signal Beam is incompatible with Magic Mirror though.
I love the idea of Yawning Espeon, anti-lead or not. It makes it very hard to counter with T-Tar and Sazando, especially with Sleep getting buffed. You don't even really need Hidden Power with Yawn in your arsenal. Okay, maybe for U-Turners, but regardless, it's great. I'd almost say it should be standard.
Wish is nerfed on Espeon, it will usually only heal 135HP of another Pokemon.
Wish is nerfed on Espeon, it will usually only heal 135HP of another Pokemon.
Careful when you say that... It is immune to every harmful non-attacking effect that Pokemon can inflict on their opponents, yes. However, it is not immune to every non-attacking move... it does not ignore boosts of moves that affect it indirectly, like Swords Dance or Calm Mind, it does not ignore Blissey's recovery, etc. These may seem like obvious points, but I feel that they're important to remember... It has an extremely good ability, yes. But it's not necessarily invincible against things that don't rely entirely on attacking to be effective.
He may have been referring to the set that I created, and he's right. :0 If you're so worried about Sazandora, you can always run HP Fighting over Fire, however, that Espeon is not designed to be a sweeper, and especially not meant to go toe-to-toe with things it's extremely weak against. >.> Overall, HP Fire is superior on my set for hitting all the 4x Fire weak guys that you'll be wanting to get rid of. As long as you have a reliable check or switch-in for Sazandora, it shouldn't be a huge issue; it's not like he can set up DD in your face like Salamence can.
Oh yeah, I totally forgot about the Wish nerf. :0 In that case, yeah, Yawn is way superior.