Kyurem

[Sphyxius]

rayquaza doesn't 100% outclass Kyurem though, Kyurem is bulkier 125/90/90 compared to rayquaza's 105/90/90 and has Ice STAB. rayquaza has X4 weakness against Ice

Bulk is moot as Kyu is not cut out to be a defensive pokemon; it was never meant for that role. Not to mention it still shares a stealth rock weakness with Rayquaza, but the latter isn't grounded and therefore doesn't fear spikes or toxic spikes, which Kyu is vulnerable to. Both are rock-weak but Rayquaza can also eat up Focus Blasts, Aura Spheres, Earthquakes, and Earth Powers, all of which are going to crawl up Kyu's ass and die. Kyu also is raped by priority, being vulnerable to all of them and taking heavy damage from Bullet Punch, Vacuum Wave, and Mach Punch.

And if you wanna talk stats, every dragon worthy of uber status discounting ex-OUs (salamence, garchomp) have Base 150 in one attacking stat or both, not to mention soul dew Lati@s. Bottom line its completely outclassed by just about every dragon in the tier as far as raw attacking power goes with Dragon STAB. Its Draco Meteors and Outrages are going to fail to score the OHKOs that its fellow dragons are capable of. Kyu also gets ZERO boosting moves (claw sharpen does NOT count, name one uber you'd use that move with), which just knocks it down another notch below the likes of Rayquaza, Latios, Palkia, etc.

Also, Rayquaza has Extremespeed and an offensive movepool that puts Kyu to shame. As does every dragon-typed uber from the first 4 generations. Reshiram and Zekrom may have equally lacking movepools but thanks to their abilities they have absolutely zero need for coverage moves. The only decent coverage moves Kyu gets are Stone Edge (physical) and Shadow Ball (special), which furthers the need to split offensive EVs, further weakening the overall power of its attacks in relation to its dragon-typed brethren. Even Reshiram/Zekrom get more coverage moves than that, having the former two in addition to Solarbeam/Focus Blast and Shadow Claw/Payback respectively. Even if Reshiram and Zekrom were out of the picture, I challenge anyone to find something this guy can do that Dialga and Palkia can't manage either.

If you focus more on its Ice STAB, thats all well and good, as it gives you the most powerful (and only STABed) Ice Beam in the tier, assuming it winds up uber (this is all assuming it winds up uber). But its signature moves are crap, and Frozen World is going to cause switches, but little else. Aside from that, there isn't anything it can do that its other dragons can't do better IMO, aside from spamming Blizzard on hail teams (which are a joke in the higher tiers, lets face it).

If you ask me what Kyuremu needs is for someone to switch its HP with its Speed, then you'd have a unique and niche-worthy uber dragon on your hands, if not a top tier uber.

 

[UberOwn]

Bulk is moot as Kyu is not cut out to be a defensive pokemon; it was never meant for that role. Not to mention it still shares a stealth rock weakness with Rayquaza, but the latter isn't grounded and therefore doesn't fear spikes or toxic spikes, which Kyu is vulnerable to. Both are rock-weak but Rayquaza can also eat up Focus Blasts, Aura Spheres, Earthquakes, and Earth Powers, all of which are going to crawl up Kyu's ass and die. Kyu also is raped by priority, being vulnerable to all of them and taking heavy damage from Bullet Punch, Vacuum Wave, and Mach Punch.

And if you wanna talk stats, every dragon worthy of uber status discounting ex-OUs (salamence, garchomp) have Base 150 in one attacking stat or both, not to mention soul dew Lati@s. Bottom line its completely outclassed by just about every dragon in the tier as far as raw attacking power goes with Dragon STAB. Its Draco Meteors and Outrages are going to fail to score the OHKOs that its fellow dragons are capable of. Kyu also gets ZERO boosting moves (claw sharpen does NOT count, name one uber you'd use that move with), which just knocks it down another notch below the likes of Rayquaza, Latios, Palkia, etc.

Also, Rayquaza has Extremespeed and an offensive movepool that puts Kyu to shame. As does every dragon-typed uber from the first 4 generations. Reshiram and Zekrom may have equally lacking movepools but thanks to their abilities they have absolutely zero need for coverage moves. The only decent coverage moves Kyu gets are Stone Edge (physical) and Shadow Ball (special), which furthers the need to split offensive EVs, further weakening the overall power of its attacks in relation to its dragon-typed brethren. Even Reshiram/Zekrom get more coverage moves than that, having the former two in addition to Solarbeam/Focus Blast and Shadow Claw/Payback respectively. Even if Reshiram and Zekrom were out of the picture, I challenge anyone to find something this guy can do that Dialga and Palkia can't manage either.

If you focus more on its Ice STAB, thats all well and good, as it gives you the most powerful (and only STABed) Ice Beam in the tier, assuming it winds up uber (this is all assuming it winds up uber). But its signature moves are crap, and Frozen World is going to cause switches, but little else. Aside from that, there isn't anything it can do that its other dragons can't do better IMO, aside from spamming Blizzard on hail teams (which are a joke in the higher tiers, lets face it).

If you ask me what Kyuremu needs is for someone to switch its HP with its Speed, then you'd have a unique and niche-worthy uber dragon on your hands, if not a top tier uber.

I have to admit, it has one of the most horrible and pathetic movepool for Dragon pokemons. ice typing is a curse to kyurem, but we can't do anything.
now we should focus on its strengths. i have been using the choice scarf set, and it has been working great. i use it for revenge-kill , but you have to use it
carefully.

 

[Nubbins]

So as a scarfer, what can kyurem do that at least one other scarf dragon cannot?

While SR isn't as common in the current metagame (I'm running ulgamoth with no rapid spin support!), a SR weak scarfer is never a good idea.

 

[Sceats]

Kyuremu can use both dracometeor and outrage together far better. It also has has far better bulk than the others and I guess focus blast is cool.

 

[black_cotton]

And if you wanna talk stats, every dragon worthy of uber status discounting ex-OUs (salamence, garchomp) have Base 150 in one attacking stat or both, not to mention soul dew Lati@s. Bottom line its completely outclassed by just about every dragon in the tier as far as raw attacking power goes with Dragon STAB. Its Draco Meteors and Outrages are going to fail to score the OHKOs that its fellow dragons are capable of. Kyu also gets ZERO boosting moves (claw sharpen does NOT count, name one uber you'd use that move with), which just knocks it down another notch below the likes of Rayquaza, Latios, Palkia, etc.

Performance of a pokemon in Ubers is not a argument to consider it non-Uber, so comparing it with other Ubers is irrelevant.(it may even not cut it).Remember that Ubers is not suposed to be a tier is a ban list for OU.

Also, Rayquaza has Extremespeed and an offensive movepool that puts Kyu to shame. As does every dragon-typed uber from the first 4 generations. Reshiram and Zekrom may have equally lacking movepools but thanks to their abilities they have absolutely zero need for coverage moves. The only decent coverage moves Kyu gets are Stone Edge (physical) and Shadow Ball (special), which furthers the need to split offensive EVs, further weakening the overall power of its attacks in relation to its dragon-typed brethren. Even Reshiram/Zekrom get more coverage moves than that, having the former two in addition to Solarbeam/Focus Blast and Shadow Claw/Payback respectively. Even if Reshiram and Zekrom were out of the picture, I challenge anyone to find something this guy can do that Dialga and Palkia can't manage either.

For that matter, DD salamence and DD rayquaza do essentialy the same thing, they also share the same checks and counters,and rayquaza have a stronger outrage and acess to priority...this make it better? Not quite, cause is a valid strategy using both on the same team, so saying another poke does it job better is, again, bad argument. Also Ice/fighting *cough focus blast cough* get nice coverage.

 

[Sphyxius]

Performance of a pokemon in Ubers is not a argument to consider it non-Uber, so comparing it with other Ubers is irrelevant.(it may even not cut it).Remember that Ubers is not suposed to be a tier is a ban list for OU.

Never did I say that it should or should not be OU, did I? On the contrary, I think a base 660 is way too powerful for OU, the raw power is going to 1-2KHO almost everything. I am simply stating that should it ever be banned, there's little reason to use it. Due to that it seems, people want to let it be OU, which is a mistake I think. Ho-oh used to be really shitty in ubers, but that never meant we even thought about letting it into OU.

If we're comparing Kyurem to Reshiram and Zekrom then it has to be done within the Uber tier.

Kyurem has near perfect SE coverage in Ubers, hitting everything except Kyogre (while being neutral to Kyogre's weakest attack - Ice Beam - and resisting its two stronger attacks) for SE damage.
Reshiram and Zekrom might have perfect neutral coverage, but their SE coverage is nowhere as good.

Neutral coverage has always been far more important in any metagame than SE coverage. Also, when you're only working with STABs (like Resh and Zek), your attacks are already extremely powerful, the fact that they have STABs with 130+ base power, and 150 attacking stats sets them above Kyu in damage output.

Plus Kyurem has 95 base speed, which means it's faster than either of them and unlike Reshiram, it's not reliant on Sunny Weather.

Reshiram reliant on sun? Hardly. It has no water weakness and its moves are more than powerful enough without the sun. Saying Reshiram is reliant on weather is like saying Zekrom is unusable due to not having weather that boosts its STAB (don't say rain, I dunno why you'd use Thunder on Zekrom). Not to mention Reshiram has Nitro Charge so at the end of turn one it'll be faster in a lot of cases.

And no, Kyurem's bulk is NOT moot when it comes with two of the best resistances in the game (water and electric) while being neutral to ice instead of weak to it. It's also thanks to them that it can perform well in ubers.

Water and Electric, I think just about every other Dragon in ubers has those resistances. Besides, Water/Electric coverage isn't exactly common OR good in ubers. So once again, outclassed.

The other dragon that is neutral to ice while being resistant to water and electric is Dialga, which is slower than Kyurem and has a much worse secondary STAB.

Dialga's gargantuan movepool says hi. Dialga also has wayyyy more resistances and switch-in opportunities, resists Stealth Rock and is immune to Toxic Spikes. And its secondary STAB, while never used, at least offers some super effective hits without redundant coverage. Before Kyu, would you have given an Ice type STAB dragon moves? You could, if only for neutral coverage, but you already said that neutral coverage is whatever, SE coverage is what matters, right? Right....

Also, harping on Kyu's 5 extra base Speed points in comparison to most other uber dragons is pretty pointless seeing as he can't boost it and has no priority. Palkia and the SD Lati twins are still faster and have a stronger attacking stat.

 

[black_cotton]

Never did I say that it should or should not be OU, did I? On the contrary, I think a base 660 is way too powerful for OU, the raw power is going to 1-2KHO almost everything. I am simply stating that should it ever be banned, there's little reason to use it. Due to that it seems, people want to let it be OU, which is a mistake I think. Ho-oh used to be really shitty in ubers, but that never meant we even thought about letting it into OU.

I wasnt too but anyways...
You are missing my point, what i'm saying is that just because is not good in Ubers, that doesn't mean it should not be there if it's bad for the OU metagame.So saying that are better options there is not a valid reason cause it not a tier to begin with is just a ban list. This principle apply to numerous thing like manaphy and wynaut.

 

[Saria]

For that matter, DD salamence and DD rayquaza do essentialy the same thing, they also share the same checks and counters,and rayquaza have a stronger outrage and acess to priority...this make it better? Not quite, cause is a valid strategy using both on the same team, so saying another poke does it job better is, again, bad argument. Also Ice/fighting *cough focus blast cough* get nice coverage.

Sorry but you argument is plain dumb. If a pokemon do everything another pokemon do but worse that make the first pokemon better, dont matter how much if its better its better period, your example with rayquaza and salamence is stupid, rayquaza is a level above salamence you cant seriusly say he is not better than sally, the only reason to use salamnece in ubers is for supporting rayquaza because you cant use 2 rayquaza's so you have to use something similar, and that is a meh strategy at best. If another pokemon do kyuremu job better means kyuremu is bad, as a single pokemon is not bad but when you compare him with others he is outclasses making him bad, this game have 600+ pokemons not 1. Also i found funny how people find focus blast a kyuremu's perk, is not a perk is a need,is focus blast or nothing (literaly) and with 70 acc is a pretty bad move .

 

[Vratix]

there is a LOT of hate going on in here.

you guys need to chill. (get it, Ice-type...chill...anyway)

I love this thing, it isn't banned on PO and it destroys. I stuck on a Scarf for use on a Hail team and Blizzard 2HKOs a BUNCH of fire types (like s-tag Chandera) which is awesome. Anything that Blizzard doesn't 2HKO Draco Meteor (or Outrage) will possibly OHKO, barring a bulky-rachi (or other Steel type) who takes roughly 40% from Blizzard. It isn't even a question of if it will be banned to Ubers only when.

Quit your theorymon-ing and go test one. Make up a set or use one from the thread. This thing destroys the metagame. I'm guessing it will head up to Ubers right around when Darkrai and Deoxys (possibly not -S forme though) go back.

 

[Nanoswine]

there is a LOT of hate going on in here.

you guys need to chill. (get it, Ice-type...chill...anyway)

I love this thing, it isn't banned on PO and it destroys. I stuck on a Scarf for use on a Hail team and Blizzard 2HKOs a BUNCH of fire types (like s-tag Chandera) which is awesome. Anything that Blizzard doesn't 2HKO Draco Meteor (or Outrage) will possibly OHKO, barring a bulky-rachi (or other Steel type) who takes roughly 40% from Blizzard. It isn't even a question of if it will be banned to Ubers only when.

Quit your theorymon-ing and go test one. Make up a set or use one from the thread. This thing destroys the metagame. I'm guessing it will head up to Ubers right around when Darkrai and Deoxys (possibly not -S forme though) go back.

I have tested one. And then I went back to Latios, which has:

-Significantly higher speed
-Better typing, offensively and defensively
-A movepool that isn't crap
-Not SR weak, and (T)Spikes don't affect it

In exchange for less bulk and a pursuit weakness. And pursuit isn't nearly as common when ST Shandera doesn't exist yet.

A physical set is done better by Garchomp, a Special set is done better by Lati@s, a mixed set is done better by Salamence/Sazandora...

It isn't that it's a crappy pokemon, but compared to the other dragons available there is no reason to use it. Ever.

 

[Saria]

....

Rofl, i dont even know how to answer this. You are not even theorymoning you are just pulling shit out of your ass and then post it, just to show your stupidity the less bulky jirachi takes 28.4% - 33.7% from blizzard and 33.4% - 39.6% from DM.

 

[FarmerWithShotgun]

i fought a mixed LO set with outrage/dm/ice beam/??? (i didnt see the last move)

it was able to do a good amount of damage to p2 (couldnt 2hko with outrage nor meteor but still) it allowed whatever other pokemon that came after it died to beat p2

however even though mence/sazandora may be able to do the mixed wallbreaking thing better, one big plus kyurem has on them is the fact that it can switch into most bulky waters (and some random electrics like rotom-w) since it's neutral to ice.

i think if you are using kyurem, you should use the mixed set on a team that needs help breaking through/scaring bulky waters, since it is what ultimately differentiates it from the other dragons

 

[Vratix]

Rofl, i dont even know how to answer this. You are not even theorymoning you are just pulling shit out of your ass and then post it, just to show your stupidity the less bulky jirachi takes 28.4% - 33.7% from blizzard and 33.4% - 39.6% from DM.

I don't know what spreads you are using but you are incorrect.

I have spent hours playtesting on PO (btw ST Chandera IS legal there as are all announced but not released Dream World abilities). I wasn't theorymon-ing, so you're half right. I can Absoultely guarantee that Blizzard can do 42% to CM rachi at +0. I literally JUST did it. Less than 20 minutes ago.

Your calculations are incorrect.
Also, you're a bit of a jerk.

i fought a mixed LO set with outrage/dm/ice beam/??? (i didnt see the last move)

it was able to do a good amount of damage to p2 (couldnt 2hko with outrage nor meteor but still) it allowed whatever other pokemon that came after it died to beat p2

however even though mence/sazandora may be able to do the mixed wallbreaking thing better, one big plus kyurem has on them is the fact that it can switch into most bulky waters (and some random electrics like rotom-w) since it's neutral to ice.

i think if you are using kyurem, you should use the mixed set on a team that needs help breaking through/scaring bulky waters, since it is what ultimately differentiates it from the other dragons

I have only rarely seen Porygon-2 and have no experience against them with Kyu. Either way, that sucker sounds bulky as hell now.

 

[shrang]

Sorry but you argument is plain dumb. If a pokemon do everything another pokemon do but worse that make the first pokemon better, dont matter how much if its better its better period, your example with rayquaza and salamence is stupid, rayquaza is a level above salamence you cant seriusly say he is not better than sally, the only reason to use salamnece in ubers is for supporting rayquaza because you cant use 2 rayquaza's so you have to use something similar, and that is a meh strategy at best. If another pokemon do kyuremu job better means kyuremu is bad, as a single pokemon is not bad but when you compare him with others he is outclasses making him bad, this game have 600+ pokemons not 1. Also i found funny how people find focus blast a kyuremu's perk, is not a perk is a need,is focus blast or nothing (literaly) and with 70 acc is a pretty bad move .

Can you actually go and play some Ubers and then come back and tell us this?? Salamence has enough perks over Rayquaza to be used independently from Ray. Speed-tying with Palkia, Roost and Intimidate are enough reasons to use Mence over Ray. I've doing that on my own teams for quite a while now and have never lost because I used Mence instead of Ray. Likewise, Kyuremu is strong enough to not be directly outclassed by anything, he has his own characteristics that define him from other Dragons.

 

[Sphyxius]

I wasnt too but anyways...
You are missing my point, what i'm saying is that just because is not good in Ubers, that doesn't mean it should not be there if it's bad for the OU metagame.So saying that are better options there is not a valid reason cause it not a tier to begin with is just a ban list. This principle apply to numerous thing like manaphy and wynaut.

LOL, we're actually saying the exact same thing. I'm saying that there are better options in ubers to drive home the point that Kyu is a poor choice there and I don't think it will get much usage, but I also think that 660 BST is a bit much for an OU mon. So yeah. Lets just agree to agree. :P

 

[Saria]

I don't know what spreads you are using but you are incorrect.

I have spent hours playtesting on PO (btw ST Chandera IS legal there as are all announced but not released Dream World abilities). I wasn't theorymon-ing, so you're half right. I can Absoultely guarantee that Blizzard can do 42% to CM rachi at +0. I literally JUST did it. Less than 20 minutes ago.

Your calculations are incorrect.
Also, you're a bit of a jerk.

My calcs are incorrect, are you sure?

Hide

And just for the record with modest the damage is 31.4% - 37%. So you are lying or just acting dumb, your choice. Im not theorymoning im 100% i played more 5th gen in PO online than you, so i also spent many hours playtesting and i know what im saying

Can you actually go and play some Ubers and
then come back and tell us this?? Salamence has enough perks over Rayquaza to be used independently from Ray. Speed-tying with Palkia, Roost and Intimidate are enough reasons to use Mence over Ray. I've doing that on my own teams for quite a while now and have never lost because I used Mence instead of Ray. Likewise, Kyuremu is strong enough to not be directly outclassed by anything, he has his own characteristics that define him from other Dragons.

My experinece in ubers is not very extensive (i played ubers but im not by any means a "good" uber battler) but im 100% sure Rayquaza > Salamence every day, both of his set are called Rayquaza partner so im not the only one who think his only option is support quaza, speed tying with Palkia (and other base 100) is pretty much the only important perk Salamence have over Rayquaza, with intimidate salamence is not taking any important hit Rayquaza cant and Salamence dont have the bulk to use roost in Ubers, also if i im not wrong a bulky mence set was reject in C&C for not being good enought. To end, Kyuremu is the strongest dragon (and pokemon) in OU right now (stat wise) but with his lackuster movepool and subpar typing he cant take advantage of that.

 

[Nubbins]

Even in OU, Kyuremu isn't a top threat. Yes, you have to watch out for it, but there's no need to specifically build a team around countering it, unlike dory and ditto. Most well built teams can handle it.

Barring any drastic metagame changes, Kyu should be solid middle OU imo.

 

[some hero]

Even in OU, Kyuremu isn't a top threat. Yes, you have to watch out for it, but there's no need to specifically build a team around countering it, unlike dory and ditto. Most well built teams can handle it.

Barring any drastic metagame changes, Kyu should be solid middle OU imo.

Yeah, everytime it comes up it doesn't cause a lot of damage.It may be that an amazing set hasn't been found for it.So far it's been an okay Pokemon.Nothing really special or broken.Even though i have just a normal team i am able to beat i every time.

Yeah, it should fit pretty well in OU...I don't want to say BL though but i was kind of let down when i tried it myself.

 

[SolCalibre]

Cold flare and freeze bolt, i wonder when they will be released and if only they didn't have to be 2-turn based moves...
Although u could use a power herb i dunno if people would be using it. Chances they'll be scarfed or life orbed, but it's speed leaves a lot to be desired imo. and SR weakness cuts it's usefulness (as do every ice type not named MamosWINe)

 

[Green Thunder]

Cold flare and freeze bolt, i wonder when they will be released and if only they didn't have to be 2-turn based moves...
Although u could use a power herb i dunno if people would be using it. Chances they'll be scarfed or life orbed, but it's speed leaves a lot to be desired imo. and SR weakness cuts it's usefulness (as do every ice type not named MamosWINe)

I just realized that ALL the ice types this gen have something that makes them suck...Anyway I don't think most people will use those to moves because...u have to charge.if gamefreak had sense and made them fire and electric with a chance of freezing, maybe JUST MABYE, Kyremu wouldn't need to be compared to other(better looking) dragons

Lastly, Altaria has a better movepool...ALTARIA!

 

[SolCalibre]

if gamefreak had sense and made them fire and electric with a chance of freezing, maybe JUST MABYE, Kyremu wouldn't need to be compared to other(better looking) dragons

Lastly, Altaria has a better movepool...ALTARIA!

If Gamefreak had made sense in NOT making them 2-turn based attacks then yes they would be used. And Altaria (Cotton Guard) be defense broken, i've seen it outstall a Garchomp which was madness.

 

[outofdashdwz]

I have tested one. And then I went back to Latios, which has:

-Significantly higher speed
-Better typing, offensively and defensively
-A movepool that isn't crap
-Not SR weak, and (T)Spikes don't affect it

In exchange for less bulk and a pursuit weakness. And pursuit isn't nearly as common when ST Shandera doesn't exist yet.

A physical set is done better by Garchomp, a Special set is done better by Lati@s, a mixed set is done better by Salamence/Sazandora...

It isn't that it's a crappy pokemon, but compared to the other dragons available there is no reason to use it. Ever.

I've found the same thing. I love Kyurem's design, but it was severely underwhelming for me =/ I went back to Specs Latias because Kyurem was just far too slow and had far more limited survivability due to hazards and bad resists. I hope the third game shows Kyurem some much needed love. If they give Kyurem anything like what Giratina got, there is hope yet.

Also lol @ Freeze Bolt and Cold Flare. I really hope that's not all they implement in the third game :(

 

[PooF]

Even in OU, Kyuremu isn't a top threat. Yes, you have to watch out for it, but there's no need to specifically build a team around countering it, unlike dory and ditto. Most well built teams can handle it.

Barring any drastic metagame changes, Kyu should be solid middle OU imo.

IT's #90 on wifi and #99 on DW tier usage atm, so it looks like he'll go straight to BL (and rightfully so imo, as even with 660 BST he's suprisingly outclassed).

 

[Nubbins]

No matter how much Kyuremu sucks, it's sugomori art is awesome, way better than zekroms and reshriams.

 

[Green Thunder]

No matter how much Kyuremu sucks, it's sugomori art is awesome, way better than zekroms and reshriams.

That's very true....but gigugears artwork will always be the best...does this guy get earthquake? He better....

Maggyos movepool is better then kyremus....that's just a shame...