No, I did calc for that already. Rock Tomb + Extremespeed won't even come close to KO Infernape. It does something like 70% max.
EDIT: 74.4% max for Adamant Lucario.
EDIT: 74.4% max for Adamant Lucario.
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Rock tomb isn't se on nape, its neutral, thats the issue.
multi-hit moves CAN KO through sash. The Problem with Bone Rush is the 80% accuracy combined with the fact that you must get 4 hits to KO Infernape.
Also, I don't know if Shuca berry would weaken each hit or just the first. If it is each hit then Luc can't KO ape if it's holding the berry in one hit barring multiple(i think?) crits.
I think the consistent win will have to go with Infernape.
Although modest non-specs Psychic is an OHKO without a Sash...
Also, I don't know if Shuca berry would weaken each hit or just the first. If it is each hit then Luc can't KO ape if it's holding the berry in one hit barring multiple(i think?) crits.
I think the consistent win will have to go with Infernape.
Although modest non-specs Psychic is an OHKO without a Sash...
They can only KO through Sash in 5th gen and on glitched Shoddy Battle, not in game.
Yea did a whole bunch of calcs last night and must of forgot to change the nature back. Anyways infernape MUST outspead all luke otherwise luke can just go timid+occa to ko you with psychic and beat you to the priority. Thats easily fixed by changing the nature to naive. Now overheat doesnt always 1hko luke without an occa. Thats easily fixed by moving some att eves into spa. New spread for infernape is 176att/220spa/112spe naive. With all eves used up by luke here are the calcs:
Vs 252hp/252spD/4def calm luke: Overheat- 50% - 59.3% Mach- 40.7% - 48.8%
Vs 252hp/252def/4spD bold luke: Mach- 27.9% - 33.1% Overheat- 74.1% - 87.2%
Vs 252hp/188def/88spD calm luke: Overheat- 60.5% - 71.5% Mach- 33.1% - 39%
Not sure how often the kos happen (using smogon calc) but i think they happen all over 50% of the time except the first one. The damage output is 90.7-108.1 and that seems a little skewed to the less then 50% side. Currently trying some spreads involving expert belt.
Alternate spread:
Naive 212hp 168att 16spa 112spe
~overheat
~mach punch
212 eves is enough to live a 252spa modest psychic (and by default 252att adament eq) 100% of the time. 16spa guarentees the ko against non occa luke and 112spe outspeads all of them. Leftover eves are placed into attack. Calcs:
Vs 252hp/252spD/4def calm luke: Overheat- 50% - 58.7% Mach- 48.8% - 58.4%
Vs 252hp/252def/4spD bold luke: Mach- 33.4% - 39.5% Overheat- 73.5% - 86.6%
Vs 252hp/188def/88spD calm luke: Overheat- 59.9% - 70.9% Mach- 40.4% - 48%
All kos happen 100% of the time...except the first one witch happens 98.8% of the time.
Honestly i dont think ttar is as high up there as you think. Low speed and no priority means alot of pokes dont have to invest much in speed to outspeed him, freeing up a bunch of eves for defence to avoid any 1hkos. For example infernape doesnt need ANY eves to outspead max speed tar and can run 252hp and 44def to avoid the 1hko from eq (and surf). I dont even think that ttar can dominate alakazam since 92hp 252def 208spa modest color berry alakazam can live an unboosted payback and 2hko 51% of the time with focus blast. Ttar will almost always want protect to get some free damage every other turn. Also any non sash ttar can be countered.
I think slaking's best option is to attempt to outstall shedinja's protect pp. Slaking can dump all evs into defense and hp and use rest.
252 attack Adamant Shedinja using X Scissor hits 252/252 Impish Slaking with leftovers for a minimum of 17.5%, which becomes 11.5% after leftovers. Therefore after ten turns Shedinja will win. Slaking can +6 defence with Bulk Up but Shedinja can then Swords Dance.
EDIT: Just thought of Sticky Barb.
EDIT: Just thought of Sticky Barb.
I only play on Shoddy. I did not know this was the case. Thank you for informing me.
I think most people assume Tyranitar will be rather highly ranked because Sandstorm will break a lot of Sashes.
And it doesn't matter if Alakazam can live an unboosted Payback with a berry because Stone Edge is more than like an OHKO with sandstorm (83.6% - 98.9% to that spread from Adamant 252Att) and if T-tar protects turn1 then it is a guaranteed KO without reflect up.
Infernape is still an issue. But if Ape is running anything besides a Passho berry you could go for an Aqua Tail (should KO with 3 possible sandstorms)
@Boondocker: I think you got it for Infernape vs Lucario. :) At least I don't see anything wrong. I was doing this funny calc thing with Reversal with Occa Lucario and trying to see if it can be EV'ed so that it will be left with <3% health >50% of the time (200 base power reversal will KO Infernape. 150 base Power reversal or focus punch will KO less than 50% of the time), but then... ... that was actually impossible to do.
I was then doing this calculation...
8 HP 248 Attack 248 Sp Def Adamant Occa Lucario - Substitute + Focus Punch + extremespeed.
Focus Punch does 91.3 - 107.8% to Infernape. KO (and thus wins) 48.28% of the time
Infernape has 10% chance of missing with Overheat.
Overheat does 188 - 223 HP damage to Lucario which has 283 HP (needs 71 HP to make a sub which costs 70HP, so damage needs to be 212 or less). 69.4% chance of that (being able to sub) happening.
So... um probabilities:
90% overheat hits * 69.5% chance of Luke surviving to sub-Punch and then 48.28% chance to KO with focus punch = 30.2% chance for Luke to win
10% overheat misses (Luke sub-punch + extremespeed to guarantee KO) = 10% chance for Luke to win.
That's 40.2% chance to win for Luke in total. Obviously... less than 50% still. If only that 69.5% chance of being able to sub was higher (without affecting Attack Power). I doubt EVs could be tweaked to get to 50%. It was worth the try though I suppose.
I was then doing this calculation...
8 HP 248 Attack 248 Sp Def Adamant Occa Lucario - Substitute + Focus Punch + extremespeed.
Focus Punch does 91.3 - 107.8% to Infernape. KO (and thus wins) 48.28% of the time
Infernape has 10% chance of missing with Overheat.
Overheat does 188 - 223 HP damage to Lucario which has 283 HP (needs 71 HP to make a sub which costs 70HP, so damage needs to be 212 or less). 69.4% chance of that (being able to sub) happening.
So... um probabilities:
90% overheat hits * 69.5% chance of Luke surviving to sub-Punch and then 48.28% chance to KO with focus punch = 30.2% chance for Luke to win
10% overheat misses (Luke sub-punch + extremespeed to guarantee KO) = 10% chance for Luke to win.
That's 40.2% chance to win for Luke in total. Obviously... less than 50% still. If only that 69.5% chance of being able to sub was higher (without affecting Attack Power). I doubt EVs could be tweaked to get to 50%. It was worth the try though I suppose.
Sorry, I meant Lucario using Reversal. But LOL o yah, totally forgot about focus Sash (my calcs were totally useless :P).
Hm, so looks like ape does need to run sash.
Hm, so looks like ape does need to run sash.
Stone edge does the same amount as payback to a dark resist alakazam. So you are better off just using payback to avoid a miss. If ttar is using an adament nature alakazam can run more hp instead of spa to avoid the ko and still 2hko max spd ttar. Im not saying ttar cant dominate alakazam. My point was that the one listed does not dominate him. Ape can easily run leftovers to cancel sandstorm while simultaniously avoiding a 1hko from anything unbosted. If ttar opts for a boosting item he should be 1hkod by cc (not doing calcs tonight).
Ok im all out of ideas then. What about the first ape from my last post? 176att/220spa/112spe naive with overheat and mach punch and a focus sash.
I don't think Tyranitar actually dominates Alakazam:
Any non-Chople/Sash Tyranitar is beaten by Timid Choice Specs Alakazam Focus Blast. (Timid outspeeds even Scarf Tar)
Any Chople/Sash Tyranitar cannot OHKO 60 HP 252 Def 196 SpA Bold Colbur Berry Alakazam (IVs: 31/31/30/30/30/30) with Payback or any other move except for Fling Iron Ball (Alakazam will always at least have 1/16 health + 1 HP from Payback, so at least 1HP after sand), but is KO'd Hidden Power Fighting followed by Focus Blast (cannot use Focus Blast twice since 70% * 70% = 49% which is <50%). Maxed Out SpDef Tyranitar has small chance to survive HP Fighting followed by Focus Blast, but obviously against maxed out SpDef Tyranitar Alakazam can just have a more offensive EV spread that ensures the KO (or just switch to Modest, for simplicity).
EDIT: Chople Dragon Dance tar beats that Bold one by DDing, but doesn't beat Timid @ any non-Choice item HP Fighting followed by Focus Blast.
EDIT2: O yeah, any Protect Tyranitar can be dealt with by Rain Dance/Sunny Day.
EDIT3: Regarding Infernape vs Lucario, why didn't we ever try just using Rash Infernape @ Sash 32 Attack 252 SpA 224 Speed??? (or did we and I just missed it?)
Overheat = 56.7 - 66.6% to Calm/Careful Occa 252 HP 4 Def 252 SpDef Lucario.
Mach Punch = 36.6 - 43.6% to that Lucario.
61% chance to KO Lucario, 55% after accounting for 90% accurate Overheat.
Any non-Chople/Sash Tyranitar is beaten by Timid Choice Specs Alakazam Focus Blast. (Timid outspeeds even Scarf Tar)
Any Chople/Sash Tyranitar cannot OHKO 60 HP 252 Def 196 SpA Bold Colbur Berry Alakazam (IVs: 31/31/30/30/30/30) with Payback or any other move except for Fling Iron Ball (Alakazam will always at least have 1/16 health + 1 HP from Payback, so at least 1HP after sand), but is KO'd Hidden Power Fighting followed by Focus Blast (cannot use Focus Blast twice since 70% * 70% = 49% which is <50%). Maxed Out SpDef Tyranitar has small chance to survive HP Fighting followed by Focus Blast, but obviously against maxed out SpDef Tyranitar Alakazam can just have a more offensive EV spread that ensures the KO (or just switch to Modest, for simplicity).
EDIT: Chople Dragon Dance tar beats that Bold one by DDing, but doesn't beat Timid @ any non-Choice item HP Fighting followed by Focus Blast.
EDIT2: O yeah, any Protect Tyranitar can be dealt with by Rain Dance/Sunny Day.
EDIT3: Regarding Infernape vs Lucario, why didn't we ever try just using Rash Infernape @ Sash 32 Attack 252 SpA 224 Speed??? (or did we and I just missed it?)
Overheat = 56.7 - 66.6% to Calm/Careful Occa 252 HP 4 Def 252 SpDef Lucario.
Mach Punch = 36.6 - 43.6% to that Lucario.
61% chance to KO Lucario, 55% after accounting for 90% accurate Overheat.
Yeah im pretty sure ttar cant dominate alakazam. I do think he can dominate azelf and jolteon though since they dont pack enough power to 1hko bandtar. Gengar can avoid domination with destiny bond, and im not sure about starmie. Speaking of gengar hes gotta be pretty high. A speedy destiny bond threatens to ko anything slower (thus avoiding domination), hes immune to any fighting/normal prioriy, and icy wind+destiny bond threatens alot of faster stuff...he even gets priority in sucker punch. If a slower mon attempts to taunt to stop destiny bond gengar can always taunt first. It can also counter, explode, perish song, and hypnotise forcing alot of lum berrys witch will stop alot of mons from using boosting items.
There's also Rowap and Jaboca Berry.
But... Maybe Shedinja @ Sash with Protect / Heal Block / Toxic / Nightmare can win?
Heal Block lasts only 5 turns, I'm thinking it will work out like this:
Turn 1: Protect, Whatever Slaking uses.
Turn 2: Heal Block, Loafing (Heal Block Turn 1)
Turn 3: Protect, Whatever (Heal Block Turn 2)
Turn 4: Toxic, Loafing (Heal Block Turn 3) -> Slaking at 15/16 health
Turn 5: Protect, Whatever (Heal Block Turn 4) -> Slaking at 13/16 health
Turn 6: Whatever, Loafing (Heal Block OVER) -> Slaking at 10/16 health
Turn 7: Protect, Rest
Turn 8: Sleeping (Loaf), Nightmare -> Slaking at 12/16 health
Turn 9: Sleeping, Heal Block -> Slaking at 8/16 health (Heal Block Turn 1)
Turn 10: Toxic, Slaking wakes up and loafs (Heal Block Turn 2) -> 7/16
Turn 11: Protect, whatever -> Slaking at 5/16 health (Heal Block Turn 3)
Turn 12: Whatever, Loaf -> 2/16 (Heal Block Turn 4)
Turn 13: Protect, whatever -> 0/16 dead (Heal Block OVER)
Slaking can have Lum or Chesto. That only delays this by a few turns.
Of course, Slaking can have leftovers too, but in that case Turn 14 -> Heal Block, Loafing will work. The fact that Slaking has to use rest means that Shedinja can time the 2nd heal block such that it will be used on a turn that Slaking is loafing.
But then... there's Sleep Talk. That's why I chose Sash over Lum / Pecha for Shedinja. Toxic has 85% accuracy (wherease Faint Attack/Pursuit/Night Slash has 100%). Slaking only has that one turn (Turn 9) to Sleep Talk as Shedinja uses Heal Block. In the worst case, Slaking has Rest + Toxic + Sleep Talk as his only moves. Only 50% chance to choose 85% accurate Toxic, which means only 42.5% chance to win. Of course Shedinja's Toxic can miss too, but that will only mean a few more turns of Protect. With 16 PP of Protect... that should be ok I think.
I know I probably missed something here... so just post hehe.
EDIT: Lol. I KNEW I forgot something -> Substitute. Well, at least this Shedinja beats Slaking without substitute? But yeah... with Substitute, I highly doubt Shedinja can dominate.
After thinking about it for a while i think suicune might be #1 in ou. Suicune is EXTREMELY hard to dominate, possibly even harder then gengar. This is due to huge defences and pressure, mirror coat, extremespeed, a boosting move in calm mind, and a pretty good special movepool. Heres how it fares against some of ou:
Aero- Crocune with specs 2hkos even max/max passho aero while avoiding a 2hko from cb stone edge. SUICUNE DOMINATES
Azelf- Suicune cant survive a life orb explosion without running sash or chillin...witch means he cant 1hko bulky azelf and is opened up to thunderpunch+explosion or thunder+gk. So suicune cant dominate azelf. On the other hand i dont think azelf can dominate suicune either. Azelf cant lead with a special move due to the threat of mirror coat. It cant calm mind since suicune can do that too. Azelf cant trick since suicune can run a choice item. Scarf cune 2hkos any azelf strong enough to 2hko bulky cune. So im calling this a TIE
Blissey- I think the only way blissey can beat crocune is with a crit...and the chance of that happening is impossible to calculate since the battle can go 10000000 different ways...it also depends when she gets the crit because it may or may not be able to be rested off/blissey lacks the pp to ko. Suicune can also crit at any time and that may or may not be significent. I assume suicunes crit chance is lower since it will probably be spending most of its time boosting. Blissey cant dominate suicune since any blissey lacking thunderwave/counter and softboiled will lose to cb cune (waterfall 3hkos and more often that not will flinch before blissey can ko). Any blissey lacking calm mind and a super effective move loses to
restcune. Calm mind/counter/softboild+attack blissey loses to toxic/sub/protect/waterfall suicune. If blissey runs rest it will lose to cb cune. TIE(suicune may be able to dominate though)
Breloom- I think suicune can dominate with life orb 120hp 252spa 136spe timid. Any breloom not holding yachi berry is ko'd by blizzard (and ice beam too). Scarf cant 1hko and even 252hp 252spD calm scarf breloom is 1hko'd by ice beam. It cant lock itself into spore. If a slower yachi berry breloom attempts to spore, suicune will select sleep talk the next turn and ko 100% of the time. Brelooms only hope to survive more then 2 turns is with yachi, sub, and stun spore, and seed bomb. Unless full paralysis screws suicune it will win every time. Even then it can spam extreme speed to prevent breloom from subbing. SUICUNE DOMINATES Edit-now that i think about it suicune can run air slash for overkill damage.
Bronzong- This guys tough. Crocune loses to imprison and trick sets. He cant be toxic'd. Has plenty of defence to survive assults on either side. Cm means suicune cant just sit on its ass. Gk breaks suicunes subs...if suicune runs enough spD so that it doesnt, it will lose to trickscarf bronzongs. Bronzong cant dominate suicune either though...it has to run imprison to stop crocune. Cm and an attack to beat it. And rest so it doesnt die to specscune. Psych up/protect/mirror coat/surf beats that without a crit though. Worst case senario is bronzong uses gk everyturn suicune uses mirrorcoat and kills itself. Bronzong may be able to use gk strategically so that leftovers heals it enough to survive the mirror coat. Stalling for that long loses to leer/waterfall/mirrorcoat/psych up. TIE
Celebi- May be able to dominate suicune because of leech seed. However suicune can hit it 4x super effectively with signal beam. That doesnt do as much as you would think though.
If anyone else wants to add to this that would be cool. Ill probably do a few more tomorrow. From now on im only doing interesting ones.
Aero- Crocune with specs 2hkos even max/max passho aero while avoiding a 2hko from cb stone edge. SUICUNE DOMINATES
Azelf- Suicune cant survive a life orb explosion without running sash or chillin...witch means he cant 1hko bulky azelf and is opened up to thunderpunch+explosion or thunder+gk. So suicune cant dominate azelf. On the other hand i dont think azelf can dominate suicune either. Azelf cant lead with a special move due to the threat of mirror coat. It cant calm mind since suicune can do that too. Azelf cant trick since suicune can run a choice item. Scarf cune 2hkos any azelf strong enough to 2hko bulky cune. So im calling this a TIE
Blissey- I think the only way blissey can beat crocune is with a crit...and the chance of that happening is impossible to calculate since the battle can go 10000000 different ways...it also depends when she gets the crit because it may or may not be able to be rested off/blissey lacks the pp to ko. Suicune can also crit at any time and that may or may not be significent. I assume suicunes crit chance is lower since it will probably be spending most of its time boosting. Blissey cant dominate suicune since any blissey lacking thunderwave/counter and softboiled will lose to cb cune (waterfall 3hkos and more often that not will flinch before blissey can ko). Any blissey lacking calm mind and a super effective move loses to
restcune. Calm mind/counter/softboild+attack blissey loses to toxic/sub/protect/waterfall suicune. If blissey runs rest it will lose to cb cune. TIE(suicune may be able to dominate though)
Breloom- I think suicune can dominate with life orb 120hp 252spa 136spe timid. Any breloom not holding yachi berry is ko'd by blizzard (and ice beam too). Scarf cant 1hko and even 252hp 252spD calm scarf breloom is 1hko'd by ice beam. It cant lock itself into spore. If a slower yachi berry breloom attempts to spore, suicune will select sleep talk the next turn and ko 100% of the time. Brelooms only hope to survive more then 2 turns is with yachi, sub, and stun spore, and seed bomb. Unless full paralysis screws suicune it will win every time. Even then it can spam extreme speed to prevent breloom from subbing. SUICUNE DOMINATES Edit-now that i think about it suicune can run air slash for overkill damage.
Bronzong- This guys tough. Crocune loses to imprison and trick sets. He cant be toxic'd. Has plenty of defence to survive assults on either side. Cm means suicune cant just sit on its ass. Gk breaks suicunes subs...if suicune runs enough spD so that it doesnt, it will lose to trickscarf bronzongs. Bronzong cant dominate suicune either though...it has to run imprison to stop crocune. Cm and an attack to beat it. And rest so it doesnt die to specscune. Psych up/protect/mirror coat/surf beats that without a crit though. Worst case senario is bronzong uses gk everyturn suicune uses mirrorcoat and kills itself. Bronzong may be able to use gk strategically so that leftovers heals it enough to survive the mirror coat. Stalling for that long loses to leer/waterfall/mirrorcoat/psych up. TIE
Celebi- May be able to dominate suicune because of leech seed. However suicune can hit it 4x super effectively with signal beam. That doesnt do as much as you would think though.
If anyone else wants to add to this that would be cool. Ill probably do a few more tomorrow. From now on im only doing interesting ones.
Just throwing this out there (something I came up with in 15 mins lol)...
How about something like 252 HP 136 Sp Def 120 Speed Calm Raikou @ Leftovers with Mud-Slap / Calm Mind / Thunder / Something else (Sub? Rest? Thunderbolt?)
120 Speed to outspeed Timid Suicune (not even sure if that's needed).
Mud Slap on First turn (to break sash while lowering accuracy -> mainly vs Hydro Pump and not doing anywhere near enough damage for Mirror Coat to damage Raikou much).
Then Calm Mind. Then either attack or keep Calm Minding depending on what Suicune does (if Suicune Calm Minds, then Calm Mind with it and Raikou will come out on top probably?... after +6, spam mudslap first, since Thunder or Thunderbolt won't OHKO, so will need a mirror coat miss... raikou might need sub or rest?).
Modest Choice Specs Hydro Pump has slightly better than 50% chance to 3HKO Raikou if Raikou calm minds 2nd turn, not accounting for accuracy.
Probability of Two -1 Accuracy Hydro Pumps hitting is (0.75*0.8)^2 = 36%
Probability of Three -1 Accuracy Hydro Pumps hitting is (0.75*0.8)^3 = 21.6%
... pretty low.
Raikou can probably even run Thunderbolt instead of Thunder to boost its own accuracy.
Well, I'm in no way saying conclusively that that Raikou definitely dominates Suicune, but yah, maybe something to work with here. Defensive Suicune surfs won't 5 HKO with surf. Modest Choice Specs Surf will not 2HKO (while Mud Slap + Calm Mind + Thunder will KO, but then... after first turn Raikou should know that Suicune is Specs'd, so Thunderbolt would suffice since Raikou can just TBolt on 2nd and 3rd turn, so yah, maybe even TBolt instead of Thunder, because the thing with thunder is that I originally meant it for Calm Mind + Thunder for OHKO after mudslap).
Anyway! That's all I got. Hidden Power Ground (70x2=140) does less damage than Surf (95x1.5 = 142), so, not a consideration. Physical Dig on Suicune also won't 2HKO while Raikou can rack up calm minds with those digging turns.
How about something like 252 HP 136 Sp Def 120 Speed Calm Raikou @ Leftovers with Mud-Slap / Calm Mind / Thunder / Something else (Sub? Rest? Thunderbolt?)
120 Speed to outspeed Timid Suicune (not even sure if that's needed).
Mud Slap on First turn (to break sash while lowering accuracy -> mainly vs Hydro Pump and not doing anywhere near enough damage for Mirror Coat to damage Raikou much).
Then Calm Mind. Then either attack or keep Calm Minding depending on what Suicune does (if Suicune Calm Minds, then Calm Mind with it and Raikou will come out on top probably?... after +6, spam mudslap first, since Thunder or Thunderbolt won't OHKO, so will need a mirror coat miss... raikou might need sub or rest?).
Modest Choice Specs Hydro Pump has slightly better than 50% chance to 3HKO Raikou if Raikou calm minds 2nd turn, not accounting for accuracy.
Probability of Two -1 Accuracy Hydro Pumps hitting is (0.75*0.8)^2 = 36%
Probability of Three -1 Accuracy Hydro Pumps hitting is (0.75*0.8)^3 = 21.6%
... pretty low.
Raikou can probably even run Thunderbolt instead of Thunder to boost its own accuracy.
Well, I'm in no way saying conclusively that that Raikou definitely dominates Suicune, but yah, maybe something to work with here. Defensive Suicune surfs won't 5 HKO with surf. Modest Choice Specs Surf will not 2HKO (while Mud Slap + Calm Mind + Thunder will KO, but then... after first turn Raikou should know that Suicune is Specs'd, so Thunderbolt would suffice since Raikou can just TBolt on 2nd and 3rd turn, so yah, maybe even TBolt instead of Thunder, because the thing with thunder is that I originally meant it for Calm Mind + Thunder for OHKO after mudslap).
Anyway! That's all I got. Hidden Power Ground (70x2=140) does less damage than Surf (95x1.5 = 142), so, not a consideration. Physical Dig on Suicune also won't 2HKO while Raikou can rack up calm minds with those digging turns.
Any raikou without sub, lum, or rest loses to this:
Suicune @ leftovers
252spD 252spe 4spa
~toxic
~sub
~protect
~mirror coat
Toxic as raikou mudslaps. You have a 64% chance to hit. He then has to cm to 1hko you so you can sub and outstall him. Mirror coat ensures he cant thunderbolt/thunder you first turn. Min/min suicune can survive unboosted raikous thunder so thats not an issue.
If raikou runs lum he then loses to scarfcunes waterfall. It does min 33% to raikou (3hko almost always) and raikou cant 1hko back. Waterfall also has a 30% chance to flinch every turn. More often then not (1-.7x.7=.51) waterfalls flinch chance will save you. Lum raikou also loses to cb cune with mirror coat (waterfall-49.2% - 58.1%, 56% chance to hit twice) Edit-waterfall has 20% chance flinch not 30%...lumkou still loses to cb cune though.
Any raikou with sub or rest lacks thunderbolt or thunder. If it lacks thunderbolt it loses to this:
Suicune@white herb
252att 252spD adament
~mirror coat
~extremespeed
~sub
~waterfall
White herb saves you from a first turn accuracy drop while you sub. Raikou then has to go thunder>thunder>thunder or cm>thunder>thunder to ko you. His best option is cm>thunder>thunder since he has a 49% chance to hit you twice. If raikou goes thunder>thunder>thunder the second thunder will not ko you even if it hits. Either way, more often then not you will get a free turn. With that free turn you can now 4hko raikou with waterfall>waterfall>waterfall>extremespeed. Waterfall does a min 33% damage and extreme speed does a min 22. So 33+33+33+22=121-6.25-6.25-6.25=102.25%. Guarented ko.
If raikou lacks thunder he loses to:
Suicune @ band
252att 252spD 4hp
~waterfall
~mirror coat
Raikou cant thunderbolt until he knows suicune wont mirror coat. Cm+thunderbolt wont ko. Suicune 2hkos and mudslap wont get raikou a free turn more often then not. Thunderless raikou also loses to some funny spread i came up involving a wacan berry...mirrorcoat+extremespeed did just enough to ko raikou in case he chose to attack first turn. He is forced to get to +6 to even have a chance of 1hkoing...giving suicune plenty of time to spam waterfall for a 3 or 4hko. Not doing the math on that one though.
Raikou needs cm in order to be able to dominate. Otherwise it will never be able to beat mirror coat cune. It also needs an electric move (duh). It probably needs mudslap too or mirror coat will never miss and raikou wont know when to attack. It needs ANOTHER electric move in the final slot since both thunder and thunderbolt raikou have flaws. Specs isnt an option. Thunder/thunderbolt/cm/mudslap raikou cant defend itself from the sub/toxic set unless it runs lum. It will need enough defence to live 2cb waterfalls, enough speed to outrun jolly cune, AND enough spD to take 2 specs hydro pumps/surfs. Another option is some kind of set involving reflect, light screen, and/or chargebeam. Chargebeam+thunder seems to have alot of potential. Edit-or not since suicune can run 0IVS and a -spD nature and mirror coat+extremespeed raikou.
Hey wow cool!
I thought about Charge Beam before, but Suicune could lower its IVs (and potentially -sp def nature) so that it will be able to mirror coat and KO, but maybe Raikou can have an EV spread that will have enough HP to survive that or not enough SpA, etc.
But from your analysis there, wouldn't Mud Slap + CM + TBolt + Rest with Leftovers be ok (252 HP 136 Sp Def 120 Speed Calm)? Toxic-stall won't beat it. CSWaterfall will not beat it. White Herb wouldn't beat it.
CBWaterfall will not beat it >50% of the time I think:
CB Waterfall does 189 - 223 damage out of 384 HP.
Leftovers recovers 24 HP for Raikou.
(384 + 24)/2 = CB Waterfall needs to have an average of 204 damage or more. for its two waterfalls to 2HKO Raikou. 56.52% chance of that happening, however, mudslap lowers accuracy to 75% for both waterfalls. Chance of both waterfalls hitting = 0.75*0.75 = 56.25%.
Chance of both waterfall hitting and 2HKOing Raikou is then pretty low at 56.52% * 56.25% = 31.8%. So, basically, that's 3HKO, meaning Raikou can MudSlap + Tbolt + Tbolt to KO.
I thought about Charge Beam before, but Suicune could lower its IVs (and potentially -sp def nature) so that it will be able to mirror coat and KO, but maybe Raikou can have an EV spread that will have enough HP to survive that or not enough SpA, etc.
But from your analysis there, wouldn't Mud Slap + CM + TBolt + Rest with Leftovers be ok (252 HP 136 Sp Def 120 Speed Calm)? Toxic-stall won't beat it. CSWaterfall will not beat it. White Herb wouldn't beat it.
CBWaterfall will not beat it >50% of the time I think:
CB Waterfall does 189 - 223 damage out of 384 HP.
Leftovers recovers 24 HP for Raikou.
(384 + 24)/2 = CB Waterfall needs to have an average of 204 damage or more. for its two waterfalls to 2HKO Raikou. 56.52% chance of that happening, however, mudslap lowers accuracy to 75% for both waterfalls. Chance of both waterfalls hitting = 0.75*0.75 = 56.25%.
Chance of both waterfall hitting and 2HKOing Raikou is then pretty low at 56.52% * 56.25% = 31.8%. So, basically, that's 3HKO, meaning Raikou can MudSlap + Tbolt + Tbolt to KO.
Dialga dominates Palkia with this moveset:
Dialga @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 242 HP / 16 Spd / 252 SAtk
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
Dialga @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 242 HP / 16 Spd / 252 SAtk
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
Not quite.
Palkia @ haban berry
252HP/4 SpA/ 252 SpD
calm
~ rest
~ sleep talk
~ Dragon Pulse
beats that set 50% of the time, as you can rest after the second draco meteor, which it survives 50% of the time. After that you wont be able to 3 ko and Palkia can wear it down with an attack of its choice. I dont think that counts as domination
Palkia @ haban berry
252HP/4 SpA/ 252 SpD
calm
~ rest
~ sleep talk
~ Dragon Pulse
beats that set 50% of the time, as you can rest after the second draco meteor, which it survives 50% of the time. After that you wont be able to 3 ko and Palkia can wear it down with an attack of its choice. I dont think that counts as domination
Calm Palkia takes 54.7% max from the first Draco Meteor (with Haban), so it should just take the first Draco with Haban as it subs, and then sub takes the 2nd draco meteor as it rests so the 3rd draco will be at -4, after which Dialga will no longer be a threat and it'll struggle after the 4th draco meteor.
... Or add Protect into the mix and take even fewer draco meteors.
Protect means that Draco Meteor does not lower Special Attack.