Magmortar (OU Analysis)

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http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/magmortar

[Overview]
<p>Magmortar has modest stats and a rather diverse movepool—certainly a respectable combination for any potent wallbreaker in the OU metagame. Unfortunately, its mono Fire typing is a huge let down to it both offensively and defensively, and without a useful secondary type to lessen the damage of Stealth Rock, Magmortar must be played with extreme care. Both Infernape and Heatran outclass it due to their dual-typing, and the former due to its higher Speed stat and a better offensive movepool to work from, while the latter has more bulk and higher base Special Attack. Nevertheless, Magmortar has access to Thunderbolt, allowing it to deal with slower Water-type Pokemon much better than the aforementioned Pokemon, most notably Gyarados who fails to outspeed Magmortar without any boosts and Cross Chop, which gives Magmortar a shot at beating Blissey. Overall Magmortar most certainly has a lot of setbacks, but if you can work around them, it most certainly has the potential to hand out a lot of damage.</p>

[SET]
name: OU Mixed Wallbreaker
move 1: Fire Blast
move 2: Cross Chop
move 3: Thunderbolt
move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Grass
item: Life Orb
nature: Naive
evs: 120 Atk / 136 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Despite Magmortar being outclassed by both Infernape and Heatran as an OU sweeper, its true strength lies in its ability to deal with both physical and special walls. Its impressive 125 Special Attack and solid base 95 Attack backed up by its diverse movepool turn Magmortar into a ferocious Mixed wallbreaker.</p>

<p>Fire Blast starts of the set being Magmortar's primary attacking move due to it being STAB, and landing a 2HKO at the very least on almost all Pokemon that do not resist it. This is followed by Cross Chop which has good coverage with Fire Blast and allows Magmortar to deal with the likes of Blissey and Heatran, two Pokemon that would otherwise completely wall this set. Tyranitar also being a threat to this set thanks to its sky high Special Defense in Sandstorm, can be caught off guard and OHKOed by Cross Chop. Thunderbolt falls in the third slot and is what distinguishes Magmortar from its fellow Fire-type sweepers, allowing it to deal with Water-types such as Gyarados trying to soak up a Fire Blast. With the Fire-, Fighting- and Electric- move combination, Magmortar attains perfect type coverage; allowing it to deal at least neutral damage to every Pokemon in the metagame. The last move is based on preference, Hidden Power Ice gives Magmortar a means of effectively dealing with Dragon-types whom would take little from anything else on this set, while Hidden Power Grass allows Magmortar to hit Water-types who are not affected by Thunderbolt, most notably Swampert, for 4x super effective damage.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>A Naive nature is chosen for this set, as it allows Magmortar to outspeed anything with a base Speed less than 83, including Jolly Gyarados and Mamoswine. Its unique base 83 Speed also allows it to outspeed a good portion of the metagame, making it not only an effective wallbreaker but a rampant sweeper also. Another reason why a Naive nature is chosen for this set is that Magmortar lacks any physical bulk, not to mention that most priority attacks are physically based so chipping of some Special Defense points is the safer option. Life Orb, while not hitting as hard as Choice items, allows Magmortar to switch freely between moves and the 1.3x boost is welcoming.</p>

<p>Magmortar pairs well will Pokemon who can take advantage of the dents it can put into the opposing team. Dragonite is an excellent partner as it is immune to Ground-type attacks directed at Magmortar and resists Water-type attacks, as well as functioning well as a lategame sweeper, easily sweeping the opponent's weakened team. Scizor pairs up well to some extent, having a solid priority attack in Bullet Punch allowing it to wreck faster, fragile sweepers whom outspeed Magmortar and Pursuit allowing it to dispose of Starmie which is a common site in the metagame. Forretress can take almost any Physical attack aimed at Magmortar as well as provide Rapid Spin support which is vital for a Pokemon that loses 25% of its everytime it switches into Stealth Rock.</p>

[SET]
name: OU Choice
move 1: Fire Blast
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Focus Blast
move 4: Hidden Power Ice
item: Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set takes advantage of Magmortar's massive base 125 Special Attack and complements it with an item of Choice, Choice Scarf giving it a 1.5 Speed boost, allowing it to outspeed a greater portion of the metagame, most notably Starmie and Jolteon. Choice Specs is less preferable as Magmortar already has the offensive firepower to dent opponents and greatly appreciates all the extra Speed it can obtain, although Magmortar's Special Attack sores to a staggering 575, allowing it to KO virtually anything that does not resist its STAB Fire Blast. Fire Blast is the STAB of choice on this set since it is not as inconsistent as Overheat and although not having as much accuracy as Flamethrower, the extra boost in power is welcomed and necessary to secure certain OHKOes. Thunderbolt is probably the biggest reason to ever use Magmortar over other Fire-types in OU, as it allows Magmortar to make quick work of Water-type Pokemon, absolutely wrecking Gyarados, also giving Magmortar the opportunity to kill off weakened sweepers who do not resist it if you'd not prefer to risk Fire Blast missing. Focus Blast annihlates Heatran who can take anything else on this set pretty well and does a respectable amount to Blissey and Snorlax. Hidden power Ice finishes of the set, landing a KO on every Dragon-type in OU with the exception of Kingdra.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>It is advised to use a Modest nature in conjunction with Choice Scarf as your held item, as Magmortar still does not outspeed scarfed base 100 Pokemon such as Jirachi and Flygon which are common and has no use apart from outspeeding Jolly max Speed Gyarados after a Dragon Dance boost. Scarf Modest still allows Magmortar to outspeed Adamant Dragonite after a Dragon Dance boost and also outpace Adamant Gyarados after a Dragon Dance, as well as outspeeding Jolteon and Aerodactyl. When using Choice Specs, a Timid nature gives Magmortar a Speed of 291, outpacing common base 80 Speed Pokemon.</p>

<p>Rapid Spin support is absolutely crucial, as this set will undoubtedly have to switch out several times due to Magmortar being locked into a single move. Starmie boasts great Speed and can come in on Water-type moves and proceed to Rapid Spin, and has Thunderbolt to deal with opposing Water-types such as offensive Suicune, who outspeeds and destroys Magmortar. Forrtress can take any unboosted physical attack bar Fire-type and can Spin away entry hazards from the field. It also has access to Payback, allowing it to severly dent the likes of Gengar who would try to switch in on an incoming Rapid Spin.</p>


[Team Options]

<p>Both Entry Hazard support and Spin support are essential to Magmortar, offensively and defensively. Starmie, Forretress and Hitmontop are great spinners, Starmie having the ability to beat Gengar who is a common spin blocker, while Hitmontop can use Foresight, which temporarily removes a Ghost-type's immunity to Rapid Spin. Scizor pairs up well with these spinners, being able to switch into Ghost-type Pokemon and Pursuit them, making spinning away entry hazards a much easier task. Setting up entry hazards of your own is very useful, as it turns many potential 2HKOes into OHKOes as well wearing down bulky walls. Roserade has good synergy with Magmortar and can set up Toxic Spikes to wear down the likes of Blissey and bulky Water-types, most notably Vaporeon. Stealth Rock and Spikes rack up residual damage and helps Magmortar function as an effective wallbreaker. Since Magmortar attracts bulky Special walls, Skarmory and Forretress can take advantage of them and set up entry hazards on them, the former being able to Taunt and shuffle the opponent's team with Whirlwind, racking up residual damage if you have previously set up any entry hazards.</p>

<p>Offensively Gyarados and Dragonite have near perfect synergy with Magmortar, both being immune to Ground-type attacks and resisting Water-type attacks. As stated previously, Scizor despite not having all that much synergy with Magmortar is still an invaluable teammate, being able to trap and finish of Starmie and Gengar, two threats to Magmortar in general. Scizor can also dispose of Blissey with Superpower, and make short work of weakened sweepers whom give Magmortar trouble such as Scarfed Tyranitar with Bullet Punch. Wish support is appreciated due to Magmortar's lack of recovery and weakness to Stealth Rock. Blissey and Jirachi can pass a Wish to Magmortar while also crippling opposing sweepers with Thunder Wave.</p>

[Optional Changes]

<p>Flamethrower is a solid choice if you'd rather opt for a loss in power for 100% accuracy. Overheat is the more powerful option and is more accurate, but Fire Blast ends up doing more damage over two turns, and therefore a better option for sweeping. Magmortar can run the common Sunny Day+Solarbeam combo, although it will rarely get the opportunity to set-up no thanks to its typing and mediocre speed. Psychic is a shaky option as its only purpose is to hit Infernape and Machamp for super effective damage, and does not provide any significant coverage with Magmortar's other moves.</p>

<p>Earthquake can be used to cover Fire-types more effectively, although Heatran already takes a big hit from Focus Blast and Cross Chop and Infernape doesn't have the defenses to take repeated hits from any boosted attacks, barring Hidden Power. Magmortar learns a handful of physical moves including Flare Blitz and Mach Punch, although it requires a heavy investment in its attack stat. However you are better off using Infernape for those kind of moves. Low Kick hits Snorlax and Heatran harder than Cross Chop, and has more reliable accuracy although it has little use outside of that.</p>

<p>Taunt can be used on the wallbreaker set, preventing Blissey from crippling it with Thunder Wave or Toxic although most Pokemon would rather attack straight away. Will-O-wisp and Toxic are not recommended as Magmortar is somewhat fragile itself combined with its multitude of common weaknesses. Belly Drum might look good in theory, although it is extremely hard to pull-off in practise, due to Magmortar's glaring weaknesses to many types and Stealth Rock and the fact that it is still outsped by a good number of Pokemon and cannot take physical attacks very well, many which are priority.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Due to Magmortar's diverse movepool and high Special Attack stat, it should be switched into with careful prediction. Blissey and Snorlax wall the Choice set pretty effectively, being able to take repeated attacks and heal the damage of with Softboiled and Rest respectively and cripple Magmortar with Thunder Wave or attempt to land some paralysis via Body Slam. Swampert is unaffected by Thunderbolt and takes both sets head on and hit back with STAB Earthquake or Waterfall, although it must be careful of incoming Hidden Power Grass. Dragon-types and Gyarados can take advantage of the Choice set and switch in on an incoming Fire Blast and start to set up. Scarf Tyranitar can come in on any move bar Cross Chop / Focus Blast and KO Magmortar with STAB Stone Edge or even Earthquake. Entry hazards really hurt Magmortar, so setting them up early in the game is very useful for wearing it down during each switch in. Magmortar might have the ability to dish out heavy damage to most Pokemon in the metagame, but its Speed is a let down. Anything that outspeeds Magmortar and packs a super effective move can remove it from play provided you predict correctly.</p>
 

jrrrrrrr

wubwubwub
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I would just combine the two sets into a set titled "Choice" because the moves and EVs are the same. Just slash the items. Magmortar has decent base speed (especially for UU), and insane SpAtk combined with a great offensive typing/movepool. I would support merging the sets into one, but not eliminating both completely.
 

Seven Deadly Sins

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I wouldn't call 125 SAtk "insane", and Fire is hardly a great offensive typing with no secondary STAB. Thunderbolt and Cross Chop are its only saving graces, but those can't save it from its mediocre speed, uninteresting typing, and reliance on inaccurate moves.
 

jrrrrrrr

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I wouldn't call 125 SAtk "insane", and Fire is hardly a great offensive typing with no secondary STAB. Thunderbolt and Cross Chop are its only saving graces, but those can't save it from its mediocre speed, uninteresting typing, and reliance on inaccurate moves.
Only 6 non-Uber pokemon have higher SpAtk than Magmortar, 83 base Speed is solid for a scarfer, Fire isn't bad typing when you're trying to hurt things as much as possible, and Focus Blast is the only move it has to sweat missing.

However, since this is currently an OU analysis, I guess it would be fine to remove it. I only say this because I just checked the UU revision of Magmortar and the "Choice" set I mentioned appears there anyways. I don't agree with the notion that outclassed sets should automatically be ignored by analyses, but in this case it works out the same either way so who cares
 

Oglemi

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Yeah, I just copy/pasted from the onsite analysis, so I could merge both sets, but if the consensus is to reject them, isn't it better to firmly say that both aren't worth a set? That way, no one can say, "oops I didn't notice that the set had both Scarf/Specs" if they try to do a Magmortar thing in OU again.
 
Magmortar in OU is inevitably compared to Heatran. Heatran has great bulk, great typing, neutrality to Stealth Rock, and higher Special Attack. Magmortar on the other hand has higher Speed, and can take out Blissey better than Heatran (Heatran relies on Explosion, which is you mispredict, can cost you Heatran, whilst Magmortar can just Cross Chop it). I'd rather use Heatran overall, but Magmortar's higher speed is pretty great.

EDIT: oops made a mistake thanks Belphagor.
 
Do not forget that Heatran has much more bulk than Magmortar, which inables it to switch in more to neutral attacks.
 

Seven Deadly Sins

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Do not forget that Heatran has much more bulk than Magmortar, which inables it to switch in more to neutral attacks.
Not to mention secondary Steel typing, which makes it neutral to SR.

I'm leaning toward rejecting this, simply because 83 Spe isn't really all that interesting, and its definitely not enough to outweigh its issues of frailty, SR weakness, and bad defensive typing.

In my opinion, the only way to actually utilize the abilities of something like Magmortar is with a mixed wallbreaking set, but those tend to not only be balls slow with split EVs as well as even more fragile than usual, but they're also largely dead weight against offensive teams, which is something a wallbreaker like Infernape doesn't need to deal with.

So in short, it's not only far outclassed by Heatran as a choice user and Infernape as a wallbreaker, but is also fairly inviable in and of itself.
 

Kevin Garrett

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I talked it over with QC and we decided that this is better made into a single set to be added to the website. Both of them are the same with exception of the item and since Magmortar is outclassed as a special attacker and revenge killer, it makes more sense to consolidate these sets.
 

Setsuna

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I talked it over with QC and we decided that this is better made into a single set to be added to the website. Both of them are the same with exception of the item and since Magmortar is outclassed as a special attacker and revenge killer, it makes more sense to consolidate these sets.
Posting to confirm this is the conclusion Kevin and I drew. If any other QC member feels like adding more information to the discussion then please do so, but for the time being I'm gonna put this on auction.

This is what we're doing: the two sets presented in the OP of this thread will be made an individual analysis -- we're making it one Choice set. We need someone with some kind of experience with Magmortar and the way both sets work so the analysis can be written. If you are that person, please PM me and I'll assign this task to you.
 

Seven Deadly Sins

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I couldn't disagree more with the decision to give Magmortar an OU set here.

Magmortar is terrible. It's slow, it's frail, and the suggest sets are CHOICE sets. Choice items on a frail SR-weak Pokemon with a main attacking STAB that is ridiculously easy to switch into (pert has a field day, the majority of waters can switch in no problem, heatran grabs a FF boost, tyranitar beats it, etc), making it ridiculously prediction-based... which is a problem. Choiced Magmortar is an extremely risky Pokemon without much of a notable reward, and at the end of the day, it's just not especially usable.
 

shrang

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Even IF Magmortar is usable in OU, why are we not including a mixed set?? Fire Blast / Thunderbolt / Cross Chop / Hidden Power Ice can hit pretty much everything reasonably hard. Yes, Infernape does better most of the time, but since we're on the topic of possibly viable sets, this should be one.
 

deinosaur

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I'm really not seeing much of a reason to use this over Heatran.
Yay! It gets Thunderbolt and Focus Blast!
Thunderbolt isn't all that great without STAB, and Focus Blast never hits anyway. Magmortar is basically Rampardos, except with less power and SR weak. We don't use Rampardos, so is there ANY reason to use this?
 
Yeah I have to agree with SDS here. If I were going to use Magmortar I would want to take advantage of it's extra 6 base Speed (which the only notable thing it beats is Gyarados) or take advantage off being able to break Blissey. The Choice sets are not only outclassed by Heatran and while I know that isn't a reason to dismiss a pokemon they just don't work. Choice sets often end up switching in and out and if it's going to lose 25% health switching in then it will die far too quickly. Not to mention it's lack of bulk enabling it to switch in. Finally relying on Focus Blast is like relying on Blissey to check Gyarados. It's extremely unreliable and has no helpful secondary effect.
 
I'm really not seeing much of a reason to use this over Heatran.
Yay! It gets Thunderbolt and Focus Blast!
Thunderbolt isn't all that great without STAB, and Focus Blast never hits anyway. Magmortar is basically Rampardos, except with less power and SR weak. We don't use Rampardos, so is there ANY reason to use this?
The two are incomparable. Magmortar's speed stat doesn't royally suck for one, and it has a bit of bulk behind it.
 

Aeron Ee1

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Yeah I have to agree with SDS here. If I were going to use Magmortar I would want to take advantage of it's extra 6 base Speed (which the only notable thing it beats is Gyarados) or take advantage off being able to break Blissey. The Choice sets are not only outclassed by Heatran and while I know that isn't a reason to dismiss a pokemon they just don't work. Choice sets often end up switching in and out and if it's going to lose 25% health switching in then it will die far too quickly. Not to mention it's lack of bulk enabling it to switch in. Finally relying on Focus Blast is like relying on Blissey to check Gyarados. It's extremely unreliable and has no helpful secondary effect.
Yea, the choice sets are very much outclassed by Heatran and Infernape, and the wallbreaker sets by the latter. I can see no reason at all to use Magmortar in OU.. If I really wanted to reliably revenge kill Gyarados and Dragonite with a Fire-type, I'd use ScarfNape before Magmortar. =\
 

deinosaur

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The two are incomparable. Magmortar's speed stat doesn't royally suck for one, and it has a bit of bulk behind it.
It really isn't bulky enough or fast enough to sweep.
Choice sets have to switch out often, and 4 switch-ins to SR is not enough.
 
It really isn't bulky enough or fast enough to sweep.
Choice sets have to switch out often, and 4 switch-ins to SR is not enough.
I didn't say Magmortar was any good in OU, I said he was incomparable to Rampardos.

Speaking of.. As stated previously, Magmortar is outclassed by Heatran or Infernape depending on what you want to use it for. I see no reason why anyone would want it in OU.
 

Oglemi

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There, I added the Mixed Wallbreaker set so people will quit bitching. QC, the rest is up to you.
 

Kevin Garrett

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Magmortar is outclassed to begin with. You might as well not have an analysis for it at all. I don't see a problem showcasing the few things it can do.
 
Most people here are simply disregarding Magmortar simply because it is 'outclassed', believe me we wouldn't have alot of the onsite analysis if we reject or approve of analysis on the basis of that. The choice Specs set has no way of working, The scarf I;m not sure but as a Mixed wallbreaker Magmortar is decent enough to work in OU, it has mediocre Special Defense, good Special Attack, yes there are plenty more options to pick instead of it, but it still is viable. For some of you who are just blindly following what other people say in this thread, play with it several matches, then claim that it is not viable ._.
 
Most people here are simply disregarding Magmortar simply because it is 'outclassed', believe me we wouldn't have alot of the onsite analysis if we reject or approve of analysis on the basis of that. Magmortar is decent enough to work in OU, it has mediocre Special Defense, good Special Attack, yes there are plenty more options to pick instead of it, but it still is viable.
It's not so much that it's "outclassed" it's that it simply doesn't work. Having only 4 switch ins to Stealth Rock is absolutely pathetic for a Choice set and with the Life Orb on the mixed set and prevalence of Sandstorm in OU it just dies far too quickly. Not too mention how frail it is. With all of these factors Magmortar dies far too quickly.
 
Although I would never use Magmortar in OU, simply because there is better options, I wouldn't call Magmortar outclassed. I would prefer to call it largely outclassed.

All choiced pokemon require solid prediction, so saying predicting is an issue is irrevelant in my opinion. However, I agree with every single flaw posted in previous posts.

It has Focus Blast, which nails Tyranitar, something which reliably switches into Heatran. It also has Thunderbolt, and enough speed to outrun things like Gyarados, and Heatran. Other than that, it is outclassed.

I am quite skeptical if that is enough to give Magmortar an OU analysis, but if this passes Quality Control, I feel you should explain why you would use this over better fire types like Infernape and Heatran.
 
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