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Kyurem

Rhiehn said:
Which is done better by Lati@s as well as Sazandora
Mildly useful at best, seeing as it does barely any damage to common kyremu switches, you might as well just meteor/blizzard, also, speed boosting moves are better in most situations It is Ice type, therefore, it does not have awesome resistances, or bulk, and trying to use screens on something with a bad defensive typing, average speed and moderate bulk is silly and also done better by Lati@s
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Resistances: Water/Grass/Electric (who doesn't love this?)
Neutral: Fire/Ice (and all the others not listed)
Weak: Steel/Fighting/Rock/Dragon

All Dragons are weak to Dragon (except Dialga who is completely irrelevant to OU), Steel is not insurmountable and it is an amazing lure for them, Fighting could be annoying but it is bulky enough to take a Mach Punch and ko, even with min/min, Rock is only really applicable to Stealth Rock since you should be either koing or avoiding Rocks. Behind Reflect, said Punchers will have real trouble as most of them will die to Kyurem and Steels are even more horribly trapped by Magnezone/Shandera.

Why on Earth would Latios ever use Reflect/Light Screen when it could attack with Specs Draco Meteors? Latias does that better and speaking of outclassed Dragons, for the most part her brother far overshadows her and bulky Dragonite with Thunderwave/Roost/Light Screen. The only thing she would have is Wish and Reflect which is pretty decent but better Wishers are in Vaporeon, Mamanbou, Blissey, Umbreon, etc.

Moderate bulk? Short of Dragon/Fighting/Steel moves, Kyurem is NOT going down and Dragons aren't going to want to be switching in. Tyranitar has similar weaknesses to Steel/Fighting and he is still VERY useable. Keep Stealth Rock off and it will be tough to kill. Kyurem can survive a Breloom Punch at full health and ko, and that's min/min with no Reflect.

Most of his mentioned counters (priority users) are slower than him. Speed doesn't matter then since they will attack first regardless. And it isn't horribly slow either since things are either slow, or their fast. Most middling speeders generally stop at 280 or or Scarved so it will either outrun or be outrun.

Kyurem behind Screen (like all pokes) is bulky. It can be invested in either physical or special defenses. If one chooses, one could forego speed since it either outruns or is outrun most of the time and speed doesn't help against Mach Punch/Bullet Punchers.

With 417 Hp and 254 SDef, Kyurem takes 83.93-99.27% from Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor behind Light Screen. Seriously, even stabbed Super effective Draco Meteor wouldn't ohko (like almost every other dragon despite a Screen) behind Light Screen.

With Min Min Breloom Mach Punch Life Orb does 78.26-92.07% (so without damage already there, Kyurem can take it and kill Breloom and it certainly won't be switching in). Scizor has a 1 in 3 chance of ko but Kyurem won't be staying in and Magnezone says hi sucker.

Frozen World isn't good in OU but it is good in Uber. I was just mentioning it had it, although I agree it isn't a viable move in this format.
 
I'm surprised that no (as far as I know) has mentioned how incredible Kyurem is against most weather pokes. Especially most Rain peeps (excepting Kabutops Stone Edge). With Light Screen, he'll shut down most rainers all by himself threatening with a base 130 Dragon move. Behind Light Screen he'll survive Kingdra's Draco Meteor (even min/min) and ko back and he easily sponges +3 Surfs and Icebeams from Manaphy threatening a powerful Draco Meteor, even without Light Screen.

Against Sunny Day, he could run Choice Scarf and pretty much run all over them. Charizard is the most threatening to Kyurem but Kyurem can outspeed and kill it.
 
Rhiehn said:
Which is done better by Lati@s as well as Sazandora
Mildly useful at best, seeing as it does barely any damage to common kyremu switches, you might as well just meteor/blizzard, also, speed boosting moves are better in most situations It is Ice type, therefore, it does not have awesome resistances, or bulk, and trying to use screens on something with a bad defensive typing, average speed and moderate bulk is silly and also done better by Lati@s
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Moderate Bulk? No Bulk? Inability to use Screens? Um, no? He's bulkier than Swampert (whom is considered a fairly bulky Pokemon), by a lot, all thanks to his massive 125 base Hp and good 90/90 defenses. Garchomp Earthquake (Choice Scarf) does 45.5% - 54% to no investment neutral nature Kyurem, and the same Earthquake does 52.2% - 61.9% to min/min neutral nature Swampert.

Specs Blizzard in conjunction with Draco Meteor and Psychic is something he can run that the dragons you just mentioned cannot. Kyurem also doesn't have trouble with Ice Beam, so he can deal with certain bulky waters that other Dragon Pokemon have trouble against.
 
Why would Kyurem run Psychic, though? Latias gets STAB on it and never uses it (though Psycho Shock might, though probably will not change that).
 
It should be duly noted that some Pokemon run Psychic-type moves to specifically counter Roopushin (found this out from DW Beta), but I personally think Pokemon have better things to do than worry about Roopushin. Ice Beam or an obligatory powerful move in general should work on Kyuremu do it's not as easily screwed by Blizzard's 70% accuracy (and to an extent, Draco Meteor because Latias has missed plenty of times >>).

Kyuremu as an individual Pokemon really shouldn't be compared to the other legendary Pokemon; rather, it should be critiqued based on its individual traits. I really don't want to view Pokemon based on their status.
 
Cshadow said:
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The difference between Swampert and Kyurem is clearly in typing. Swampert has excellent defensive typing and resists rock, Kyurem wishes he were just dragon, ice has redundant coverage with dragon and only helps him take other ice types, while making him weak to stealth rock. Kyurem is statistically bulky, sure, but so is Probopass. Psychic is practically useless unstabbed and blizzard is again redundant with draco meteor/dragon pulse/outrage.
 
I'm hoping the inevitable third game offers Pokemon differing abilities through Dream World. If Kyurem can Frozen World and Blizzard so well, then it can easily pull off Snow Warning loads better than Snover/Abomasnow.
 
Rhiehn said:
The difference between Swampert and Kyurem is clearly in typing. Swampert has excellent defensive typing and resists rock, Kyurem wishes he were just dragon, ice has redundant coverage with dragon and only helps him take other ice types, while making him weak to stealth rock. Kyurem is statistically bulky, sure, but so is Probopass. Psychic is practically useless unstabbed and blizzard is again redundant with draco meteor/dragon pulse/outrage.
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Blizzard is not redundant. In hail it has 100% accuracy, kills dragons without lowering your special attack, EASILY 2 hit koes Nattorei, Skarmory, Scizor, Metagross in hail, etc. Most steels couldn't handle two Blizzards so only could switch in once.
 
It's not too redundant when you consider that Ice gets good coverage and Dragon hits neutrally what Ice doesn't hit well, except Steel.

But that's what you should always have Magnezone/ton for, right?

This pairing is not ideal for most Pokémon, but Kyurem has the advantage of having both of these as STAB.
 
Other dragons can beat steels on their own. That's the point. You don't have to waste a team slot on magnezone with the plethora of dragons that are better than kyurem. Magnezone isn't a hard counter to every steel to begin with.
 
Green Mage said:
Other dragons can beat steels on their own. That's the point. You don't have to waste a team slot on magnezone with the plethora of dragons that are better than kyurem. Magnezone isn't a hard counter to every steel to begin with.
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Its not like you need to have magnezone, you can choose other steel counters as well. You just need a poke to take care of steels, and every poke needs teamates to help it, kyuremu isn't an exception.

@ bulky/typing
While ice dragon isn't a first choice for defensive typing, it isn't all bad. As mentioned above, water grass electric resists are welcomed, even if he has weaknesses to common types. Combine this with huge defenses and you have a bulky creature on your hands, even with his weaks.
 
Ice adds nothing defensively, though. A pure Dragon-type has the same resistances without the crippling Stealth Rock weakness. Let's look at an example of his so-called bulk. Infernape takes 50.2% - 59.4% from non-boosted Lucario's Extremespeed. Meanwhile, Kyuremu takes 30.9% - 36.6%. With Stealth Rock, that's 61.6% maximum while Infernape takes 71.9%, and obviously this is an extreme example because Infernape has SHIT defenses.

He's great for Hail, but Hail itself is the weakest weather in the first place.
 
That is even assuming Stealth Rock is up and hasn't been spun away or even laid in the first place. Because one shouldn't leave him in on an obvious rock attacking pokemon he couldn't kill. If they're not, he would be much tougher to kill. And Giant Wish support.

Breloom sure as heck doesn't want to switch in. Scizor can be hesitant since a Blizzard 2 hit koes and they might have Magnezone/Shandera, Roopushin is koed by Draco Meteor and it can survive Mach Punch.
 
Rhiehn said:
The difference between Swampert and Kyurem is clearly in typing. Swampert has excellent defensive typing and resists rock, Kyurem wishes he were just dragon, ice has redundant coverage with dragon and only helps him take other ice types, while making him weak to stealth rock. Kyurem is statistically bulky, sure, but so is Probopass. Psychic is practically useless unstabbed and blizzard is again redundant with draco meteor/dragon pulse/outrage.
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It should be noted that Kyurem is bulkier than Probopass when both are uninvested, pretty awesome for a mon with attacking stats of 130/130/95. Also of revelance is that while Kyurem's typing may be somewhat letting down, it lacks a double weakness unlike Pert. If a Grass-type comes in, it's pretty much game over for Pert, but Kyurem is seldom OHKOed and can usually fight back either with its powerful STABs or a Hidden Power.

btw, Frozen World can be used to catch a predicted switch-in off guard and works well in tandem with a specific spread.

EDIT: I'm just proposing a possibility to nail a single switch-in, as well as that Frozen World can be viable in OU, (since with Kyurem's massive BST he should fare well with investments in both departments and at the same time being faster than his opponent) and hope somebody else would come up with the specific spread.
 
rxhar said:
It should be noted that Kyurem is bulkier than Probopass when both are uninvested, pretty awesome for a mon with attacking stats of 130/130/95. Also of revelance is that while Kyurem's typing may be somewhat letting down, it lacks a double weakness unlike Pert. If a Grass-type comes in, it's pretty much game over for Pert, but Kyurem is seldom OHKOed and can usually fight back either with its powerful STABs or a Hidden Power.

btw, Frozen World can be used to catch a predicted switch-in off guard and works well in tandem with a specific spread.
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The only question I have is what grass in their right mind comes in on Kyurem? The only ones I could think of are Mebjuka the deer in Sun aiming to Jump Kick your face (which it still needs Swords Dance to ko since it does 78.26% average) and Breloom when Kyurem kills something (because Breloom can't switch on Kyurem's attacks at all) trying to Mach Punch it to death.

I could maybe see some use from Frozen World but most of the things switching in are already going to be slow and resistant to ice, or are coming in after it killed something hoping to ko you with faster speed/priority. If they're Scarf they outrun you, and you don't need Frozen World when you're Scarfed. The only issue is timing. Don't get me wrong, I want to use Frozen World badly since it's a cool exclusive move (and Smeargle). But...

Edit-Oh, misread grammar. Never mind about the grass thing since you're saying Kyurem is not easily ohkoed which it sure as heck isn't seeing as it survives Technician Loom Punch at full health even min/min and can run Screens.
 
Frozen World is just Icy Wind with 10 more BP and less PP, it's absolutely terrible.

I haven't seen many tactics with Icy Wind, I don't see how Frozen World is going to be any better.
 
Frozen World is okay on Lead Kyumeru since its speed isn't great. It allows it to 2HKO the opponent before getting hit a second time. And hail isn't that horrible, with that base 130 SpA and good bulk Kyumeru can just spam high-powered Blizzards.
 
That's still something Icy Wind can do. Hence, Frozen World is a terrible signature move.

Only the Lati twins' signature moves are worse, because they don't get to be used because the alternatives(psychic and psycho shock, which are still arguably worse than the rest of their coverage moves) are actually better. The only reason Frozen World gets used is the 10 BP increase compared to Icy Wind, but other than that, its functionality is just the same and the move might as well not exist and nobody would care because Icy Wind can fill its role just as good.
 
I'm not sure what the whole deal is with one stage or two stages, but PO has it listed as two stages, while other sources claim it's one. I suppose that for the time being, we can treat it as two stages, since that's how it's going to register in our matches, but I'd love it if we could get some hard data on this.
 
I heard it was just a miswording issue (correct me if i'm wrong), so it would have to be used 6 times to get the opponent to -6. I guess we could test that, as because if you hover over the pokemon it shows if the stat is +(#) or -(#).
 
I think Reflect/Light Screen should seriously deserve consideration on something as bulky as this since it will always 1. Get a free turn to set up a screen as they switch to a most probable Steel. 2. Has insane defenses with it's hp and good defensive stats and behind Reflect, it survives incredible things. 3. Can SURVIVE BEING 2 HIT KOED (!!!) BY CHOICE BAND SCIZOR TECHNICIAN BULLET PUNCH EVEN WITH STEALTH ROCK IF IT GETS A REFLECT UP OR A TEAM MATE SET IT UP.

A spread of 417 hp/256 Def +Reflect takes From Scizor: 36.45-43.17%. If need be, you could (with Luck and praying accuracy doesn't bite you) beat a standard Scizor with Focus Blast and Stealth Rock 2 hit ko. Not recommended unless absolutely necessary of course but the fact that it is possible...
 
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