np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Not true. Specially denfensive versions can take latios' draco meteor and counterattack with blizzard, stripping away most if not all of latios' health. A priority attack, especially with a good typing like ice, is always helpful. It can also come in on most bulky waters and threaten them, and proceed to subseed, focus punch, or hp fire depending on its set and the predicted switch in.

Also note that weather pretty much defines this metagame. Hail, being the least useful weather, is basicly the anti-weather. It is useful against sun and sand teams as well, even if it can't come in on them with ease like rain teams. You can build a team that doesn't depend on it for their purposes but only to cripple their opponent's weather with hail, which you can't really do with the other weathers- you may run into a team that uses any of the other weathers and if you're carrying that weather to stop others, but not really using it, then they'd have a pretty good advantage over you.

Rain teams carry Ice attacks,and he's neutral to them.
Sun teams carry Fire attacks,and he's 4x weak to them.
Sand teams carry Rock attacks,and he's 2x weak to them.

All weather teams will have SOME way of dealing with Abomasnow thanks to his slowness and mediocre stats.

 

[XienZo]

Ludicolo and Kingdra take neutral damage from Abomasnow's STAB attacks,and coming from his amazing stats,it's not going to hurt that much.

Max SpAtk neutral nature Blizzard is a 2HKO on both of them with hazards or hail damage though, so they can't switch in that easily either.

Rain teams carry Ice attacks,and he's neutral to them.
Sun teams carry Fire attacks,and he's 4x weak to them.
Sand teams carry Rock attacks,and he's 2x weak to them.

All weather teams will have SOME way of dealing with Abomasnow thanks to his slowness and mediocre stats.

He's not supposed to sweep them though. He just kills their momentum so your team can get the advantage.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Max SpAtk neutral nature Blizzard is a 2HKO on both of them with hazards or hail damage though, so they can't switch in that easily either.

How much do they do to Abomansow them?

 

[Arc Tech]

How much do they do to Abomansow them?

Abomasnow doesn't need to stay in on them. His job is already done when he comes in on politoed- to cripple the rain sweepers back to what they were like before Drizzle. At that point someone on your team who can do a lot of damage should come in, either killing the rain sweeper or greatly harming politoed.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Abomasnow doesn't need to stay in on them. His job is already done when he comes in on politoed- to cripple the rain sweepers back to what they were like before Drizzle. At that point someone on your team who can do a lot of damage should come in, either killing the rain sweeper or greatly harming politoed.

So....Abomasnow comes in....Politoed comes out....and you threaten him so he goes back and then you need to bring Abomasnow back?
Might as well use your own weather team >.>

 

[Arc Tech]

So....Abomasnow comes in....Politoed comes out....and you threaten him so he goes back and then you need to bring Abomasnow back?
Might as well use your own weather team >.>

The goal is to wear down and kill politoed or to kill off all their sweepers, which happens eventually in this scenario.

The point of Abomasnow is to cripple weather teams without having to run one yourself. If you attempt to cripple weather teams by running rain, sand, or sun, but not fully taking advantage of it, you will lose if you come up against a team based around that weather. The fact that hail teams are not very good is what makes abomasnow a good anti-weather pokemon. It also just happens to cripple the most threatening of them rain very, very efficiently, more so than the others.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

The goal is to wear down and kill politoed or to kill off all their sweepers, which happens eventually in this scenario.

The point of Abomasnow is to cripple weather teams without having to run one yourself. If you attempt to cripple weather teams by running rain, sand, or sun, but not fully taking advantage of it, you will lose if you come up against a team based around that weather. The fact that hail teams are not very good is what makes abomasnow a good anti-weather pokemon. It also just happens to cripple the most threatening of them rain very, very efficiently, more so than the others.

Have you done this with success?
Because I'm pretty sure the Rain team is doing the exact same thing,and unlike Politoed,Abomasnow isn't powering up your team and instead is damaging you.

 

[chimpact]

Abomasnow just has so many weaknesses and is mediocre offensively. He can't switch in that often due to that stealth rock weakness.

 

[XienZo]

So....Abomasnow comes in....Politoed comes out....and you threaten him so he goes back and then you need to bring Abomasnow back?
Might as well use your own weather team >.>

The point is that by restricting their rain, they essentially have pokes that aren't as big of a threat, while your 5 other team members would be at full capability regardless of the weather. If you can keep rain off at least half the match, then your team can come in during those opportunities and overpower the rain-deprived team.

 

[PttP]

most rain teams have nattorei who can switch into whatever abomasnow has to use and set up ehs to make it harder for aboma to switch in and essentially put a timer on him.

that and abomasnow will either die in the process of taking random rain attacks from like kingdra and if you choose to switch it in after a pokemon faints your team isnt benefiting that much

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

most rain teams have nattorei who can switch into whatever abomasnow has to use and set up ehs to make it harder for aboma to switch in and essentially put a timer on him.

that and abomasnow will either die in the process of taking random rain attacks from like kingdra and if you choose to switch it in after a pokemon faints your team isnt benefiting that much

That.
Ice types are the only ones that benefit from Hail anyway,and most of them suck.

 

[Arc Tech]

Have you done this with success?
Because I'm pretty sure the Rain team is doing the exact same thing,and unlike Politoed,Abomasnow isn't powering up your team and instead is damaging you.

As I already said, I used Abomasnow in my team to get voting rights this round.

most rain teams have nattorei who can switch into whatever abomasnow has to use and set up ehs to make it harder for aboma to switch in and essentially put a timer on him.

that and abomasnow will either die in the process of taking random rain attacks from like kingdra and if you choose to switch it in after a pokemon faints your team isnt benefiting that much

Nattorei is the one pokemon found on rain teams commonly that gives Abomasnow major trouble. I was running brick break, but by the end I was considering switching to hp fire or focus punch for a 2hko (I think hp fire 2hkos...). However, the same thing goes with nattorei that goes with rain sweepers- somethings either gotta die or politoed takes major damage coming in if you play it right.

SR will cause Abomasnow problems, but he also has two decent healing options- leech seed and giga drain. You need to ko Natty first, but that's what focus punch/hp fire is for- making it hard for natty to come in.

That.
Ice types are the only ones that benefit from Hail anyway,and most of them suck.

Hail is a double-edged sword; it hurts both you and your opponent. However, sicne it also eliminates the weather your opponent is using (and in the case of many rain pokes, needs in order to be effective) it is a net gain for you- compared to their weather.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

As I already said, I used Abomasnow in my team to get voting rights this round.



Nattorei is the one pokemon found on rain teams commonly that gives Abomasnow major trouble. I was running brick break, but by the end I was considering switching to hp fire or focus punch for a 2hko (I think hp fire 2hkos...). However, the same thing goes with nattorei that goes with rain sweepers- somethings either gotta die or politoed takes major damage coming in if you play it right.

SR will cause Abomasnow problems, but he also has two decent healing options- leech seed and giga drain. You need to ko Natty first, but that's what focus punch/hp fire is for- making it hard for natty to come in.



Hail is a double-edged sword; it hurts both you and your opponent. However, sicne it also eliminates the weather your opponent is using (and in the case of many rain pokes, needs in order to be effective) it is a net gain for you- compared to their weather.

Can't Gyro Ball OHKO Abomasnow? >.>

Hail is a double-edged sword; it hurts both you and your opponent. However, sicne it also eliminates the weather your opponent is using (and in the case of many rain pokes, needs in order to be effective) it is a net gain for you- compared to their weather.

EDIT: What about when you DON'T fight a weather team? >.>

 

[XienZo]

EDIT: What about when you DON'T fight a weather team? >.>

Anti-bulky water + Ice Shard is nice.

 

[Arc Tech]

Can't Gyro Ball OHKO Abomasnow? >.>

Both min speed: (Aboma doesn't need speed, its really slow anyway)
Nope. Nattorei (0 EVs) Gyro Ball vs Abomasnow (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 57.9 ~ 67.9% (186 ~ 218 HP)

Nattorei (0 EVs) Gyro Ball vs Abomasnow (252/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 48.4 ~ 56.7% (186 ~ 218 HP)

I don't know how much atk evs Natty usually runs, but it falls just short of a ohko with sr with max.

EDIT: What about when you DON'T fight a weather team? >.>

Most teams this gen are weather. And Abomasnow still has its uses- it can take a latios draco meteor, it has a stab ice-type priority attack, etc.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

So....my choices are:
A) Run my own weather team.

Or

B) Use a mon that doesn't even fit well on my team.

I don't like either.
Rain teams completely out class balanced teams,to the point that you have to run....Abomasnow >.>

Both min speed: (Aboma doesn't need speed, its really slow anyway)
Nope. Nattorei (0 EVs) Gyro Ball vs Abomasnow (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 57.9 ~ 67.9% (186 ~ 218 HP)

Nattorei (0 EVs) Gyro Ball vs Abomasnow (252/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 48.4 ~ 56.7% (186 ~ 218 HP)

I don't know how much atk evs Natty usually runs, but it falls just short of a ohko with sr with max.

EDIT: That pretty much softens him up for Politoed's Ice Beam which WILL happen if you want to keep rain out of the field.

 

[XienZo]

So....my choices are:
A) Run my own weather team.

Or

B) Use a mon that doesn't even fit well on my team.

I don't like either.
Rain teams completely out class balanced teams,to the point that you have to run....Abomasnow >.>

Hail Tentacruel is pretty popular too, I've heard.

Anyhow, if you're not going to use a counter to the most dominant play style because your current team doesn't work well with it, that's your choice. I mean, no one's stopping you from creating a balanced non-hail Abomasnow team.

The point is, you can't say rain is overpowered because its counters don't mesh well with your current playstyle.

 

[Arc Tech]

So....my choices are:
A) Run my own weather team.

Or

B) Use a mon that doesn't even fit well on my team.

I don't like either.
Rain teams completely out class balanced teams,to the point that you have to run....Abomasnow >.>




EDIT: That pretty much softens him up for Politoed's Ice Beam which WILL happen if you want to keep rain out of the field.

You could also run a trick room team. or some gimmicks which can help deal with weather, like trace gardevoir or scarf golduck. And if your team has a problem with a type of team or pokemon, and you're unwilling to put in one of the best counters for that team/pokemon...

And like I said, he does have some healing options, as well as lefties.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

It's not that it should be banned because it doesn't mesh well with MY strategy,it's just that you're forced to use Abomasnow or lose to rain horribly.
Even then,Abomasnow is horribly out classed in tanking,subseeding,and overall attacking. He also has a bad typing along with those mediocre stats.

You either make your team so Abomasnow doesn't wreck it or make your own weather team,making some mons unviable,especially the frailer ones who can barely take the Hail damage + LO + any damage received upon entering.
Abomasnow is just a mediocre mon with a niche in stopping weather teams,but being mediocre in everything else.


EDIT: Abomasnow can 2HKO all the Rain sweepers with Wood Hammer....but Kingdra's Outrage and Kabutop's Stone Edge can 2HKO back after Wood Hammer's recoil.
This is against a 252 HP/252 Def Bold Abomasnow.
Like all other "counters",they break him down and proceed to sweep.

 

[XienZo]

It's not that it should be banned because it doesn't mesh well with MY strategy,it's just that you're forced to use Abomasnow or lose to rain horribly.
Even then,Abomasnow is horribly out classed in tanking,subseeding,and overall attacking. He also has a bad typing along with those mediocre stats.

You either make your team so Abomasnow doesn't wreck it or make your own weather team,making some mons unviable,especially the frailer ones who can barely take the Hail damage + LO + any damage received upon entering.
Abomasnow is just a mediocre mon with a niche in stopping weather teams,but being mediocre in everything else.

Yes, it has meh stats, bad typing, and in this metagame, an ability that singlehandedly cripples the most dominant playstyle, so you're giving up the ability to perform certain roles like subseeding as well in exchange for allowing your balanced team to beat the most common type of team out there. What's the problem with using it?

Anyhow, you're forced to use one of rain's counters in order to compete a metagame where rain is common. Is there something wrong with that?

EDIT: Abomasnow can 2HKO all the Rain sweepers with Wood Hammer....but Kingdra's Outrage and Kabutop's Stone Edge can 2HKO back after Wood Hammer's recoil.
This is against a 252 HP/252 Def Bold Abomasnow.
Like all other "counters",they break him down and proceed to sweep.

They can't sweep without a speed boost, even if they scare Abomasnow out. Not to mention Giga Drain is always an option instead; after all, who needs power when you can get health back to ruin rain later on?

And once again, why would Abomasnow need to stay in? Your chances of sweeping are already crippled, so I can easily pull it out and switch in my standard wall to stop the now-below-standard sweeper.

Basically, the difference between Abomasnow and other counters is that the other counters need to stay in to stop your sweep, while Abomasnow says hi, throws out a few grass attacks if he feels like it, and then leave whenever it become inconvenient for him to stay.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Yes, it has meh stats, bad typing, and in this metagame, an ability that singlehandedly cripples the most dominant playstyle, so you're giving up the ability to perform certain roles like subseeding as well in exchange for allowing your balanced team to beat the most common type of team out there. What's the problem with using it?

Anyhow, you're forced to use one of rain's counters in order to compete a metagame where rain is common. Is there something wrong with that?



They can't sweep without a speed boost, even if they scare Abomasnow out. Not to mention Giga Drain is always an option instead; after all, who needs power when you can get health back to ruin rain later on?

And once again, why would Abomasnow need to stay in? Your chances of sweeping are already crippled, so I can easily pull it out and switch in my standard wall to stop the now-below-standard sweeper.

Basically, the difference between Abomasnow and other counters is that the other counters need to stay in to stop your sweep, while Abomasnow says hi, throws out a few grass attacks if he feels like it, and then leave whenever it become inconvenient for him to stay.

And unless you threaten Politoed the entire game,your opponent will do the same,the difference is that Politoed doesn't have a horrible typing.

 

[XienZo]

And unless you threaten Politoed the entire game,your opponent will do the same,the difference is that Politoed doesn't have a horrible typing.

The big difference is that Politoed can't switch into Abomasnow.

That means Abomasnow can switch into Politoed, hit the opposing switchin, and then switch out.

Politoed has to wait for Abomasnow to not be out, gets hit by a normal member of the balanced team on the switch in, and then can switch out.

Abomasnow can take potshots at the rain team as it forces stuff out, while Politoed keeps getting harassed as it goes in and out.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

The big difference is that Politoed can't switch into Abomasnow.

That means Abomasnow can switch into Politoed, hit the opposing switchin, and then switch out.

Politoed has to wait for Abomasnow to not be out, gets hit by a normal member of the balanced team on the switch in, and then can switch out.

Abomasnow can take potshots at the rain team as it forces stuff out, while Politoed keeps getting harassed as it goes in and out.

While the Nattorei puts up some hazards and once the Toed comes in,double switch to Ludicolo and threaten with Focus Punch,double switch to back to toed,and so on until the Snowman is dead.
FYI,Ludicolo can 2HKO with Focus Punch,after Stealth Rock,Abomasnow has 1 more switch in before it dies.
Like a good weather team,hazards first,weather later.

 

[XienZo]

While the Nattorei puts up some hazards and once the Toed comes in,double switch to Ludicolo and threaten with Focus Punch,double switch to back to toed,and so on until the Snowman is dead.
FYI,Ludicolo can 2HKO with Focus Punch,after Stealth Rock,Abomasnow has 1 more switch in before it dies.
Like a good weather team,hazards first,weather later.

Yes, you can obviously beat them if you outpredict them several moves/switches in a row.

Hazards can help, but you still needed mad predicting skills to get past Abomasnow THAT easily, and you have to hope they don't have spinners.

Also, Ludicolo (or anything, for that matter...) can't threaten with Focus Punch since Abomasnow will just Giga Drain/Blizzard once it knows you're running that. And don't most Ludicolo opt for Focus Miss instead?

Edit:

Modest Ludicolo's "Focus Miss" OHKOs 4/0 Abomasnow.

Yes, I'm aware of that. Ludicolo can force Abomasnow out. That's not really a reason to get outpredicted by 8 switches in a row.

Edit2:

Fortunately if you outpredict twice it is more likely that you will outpredict 4-5 times in a row.

It's also more likely that you're a way better player and should win regardless of team advantages...

 

[cosmicexplorer]

Modest Ludicolo's "Focus Miss" OHKOs 4/0 Abomasnow.