And toxicroak cant hit Sand teams? And Bulk Up cant help against no rain teams? One counter-example means your argument is null.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
- Thread starter Philip7086
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Ehh
Toxicroak dies to basically any EQ...which I don't know if you noticed,but EQs are pretty common in sand teams.
Toxicroak is also pretty frail,Bulk Up doesn't help all that much. 85 Speed is also meh.
Only rain teams make him annoying.
Don't be absurd. Are you aware of things like EQ, Fire moves, and Psychic moves. Toxicroak needs his recovery or he's screwed
Even so, Chlorophyll Venusaur is an absolute beast. In Sun, Growth boosts both attacking stats by 2, instead of the usual 1. That's a Nasty Plot and a Swords Dance in a single turn. Not to mention due to Chlorophyll, that's effectively, after setting up sun, a Shell Break minus the Defence drops. It's not something to be taken lightly. Heatran's not going to like taking a hit from it in the face at all, and once that Balloon pops, gg.
Also, Nattorei and Burungeru decimate rain teams as a combo. The odd Omastar with HP fire, a complete rarity, is walled by Burungeru, and Nattorei speaks for itself. I've never had problems with rain for the sheer fact that Nattorei exists.
Whatever faster water hits Birijion, it's probably still going to end up pretty healthy after it Giga Drains your ass o_O
If rain is banned, that will not change, as another weather, which, to be honest, is most likely gonna be sandstorm, will continue to keep this in mind. Rain is not broken by any means, it's just in this generation, the viability of weather is incredibly potent, and if it leaves then another will just take its place and you'll still be forced to have a weather changer.
Ban the ability, and not the pokemon themselves. In 4th gen we didn't have to deal with this so why should we have to deal with it now (and don't say because it's a new game). I think that most of us would agree that 4th gen OU is better than 5th gen. I know this is a pretty lame argument but the point is no one wants to deal with infinite rain in OU.
Forgot to say that if we do this we should also ban drought in OU.
Forgot to say that if we do this we should also ban drought in OU.
This will probably be a pointless post.
If we ban rain, then, like MofoAmbulance said, sand will end up everywhere. Then that will need to be banned. Either this generation is gonna be exactly like the last one but with new Pokemon, or it'll be entirely weather-based. I don't like the sound of either.
If we ban rain, then, like MofoAmbulance said, sand will end up everywhere. Then that will need to be banned. Either this generation is gonna be exactly like the last one but with new Pokemon, or it'll be entirely weather-based. I don't like the sound of either.
With the exception of Kingdra. I've found that I can Ice Beam/Outrage/Dragon Dance/whatever on Birijion since I'm fairly healthy after it Giga Drains me; it works out even better in my favor if they decide to Calm Mind.
And while you're at it, why not ban sandstorm and hail? Why not just get rid of every single weather? Silly argument. Once the meta dies down, I can assure that rain won't be half as prominent.
Not with a neutral 75 BP move (even with STAB)
That idea is based on no knowledge of how Drizzle teams work. The weathers-being-tied-together argument always has, and always will be, inane at best. They are very different, rain being focused on abusers primarily offensively, while sand taking advantage of some abusers (basically 2) while still being very useful in stall. Rain is nigh impossible to deal with without significantly hurting your team's performance against non-rain teams
You missed the part where he said "BAN DROUGHT TOO LOL". But yeah, I do believe that while Drizzle is incredibly potent, it's nowhere near as powerful as you make it out to be. Personally, as I've stated before and will state again, Nattorei stops rain teams dead in their tracks. Having a Nattorei on your team will definitely not hurt your performance; however, I do accept that absolutely having to have one pokemon on your team to deal with it is overcentralising, but then again, I run Roobushin and Gliscor because of the mere fact that Doryuzu exists. And Sand has a great deal more abusers, as you would know from last generation, where it was without a doubt the weather of choice.
The thing I don't like about this meta is the fact that whoever's weather inducer dies first, if you're running weather, makes for gg, regardless of what weather. Except Hail.
Do you really even battle? rain teams are really not that hard to defeat. I make random teams without even thinking about weather and I lose some battles to rain but I win the majority. Actually, I lose more battles to sand teams then I do to rain.
Nattorei is not a cold stop to Rain Offense. Why do you think Kabutops runs Low Kick, or Ludicolo runs Focus Blast? If Nattorei stopped rain as easy as you say, nobody would be using Rain because they'd lose to one of the most common Pokemon around.
This is becoming rapidly tiresome. You can probably go back to any single page n this thread and see one of my posts or someone else's explaining why that is so wrong. Toxicroak can laugh in its face all day, Ludi can 2HKO with Focus Blast, many Kingdra run HP Fighting, which can also 2HKO it, it can't stop rain at all
Then you play against terrible people. That's not an argument, that's just a statement. Try to actually debate these points, not just say random things
Dude, you need to seriously swallow you pride, wake up and look at the bigger picture instead of pettily addressing singular points.
The point that a lot of people are making, and which you are downright ignoring, is that Sand is an incredibly potent threat too, as much if not more than rain is. If anything, there are more 'bannable' things about Sand than there are about Rain...
Rain has
- Swift Swimmers
- Rain Dish / Dry Skin (Ludicolo/Toxicroak)
- fire resistance (Scizor / Natt / Forry do better)
- other stuff that may or may not be as important
Sand has
- Sand Veil-- possibly the haxxiest ability since before Inconsistent
- Rock-types' SDef boost
- based on performance and barring ability, what are probably the two toughest weather inducers of the lot
- Sand Throw-- Swift Swim for SS
- Sand Strength, no notable comparison in Rain outside of the boost to Water attacks + Gale/Thunder
- passive damage
I might have missed a few things about Rain, but I probably missed some stuff about Sand too-- this was just what I could get off the top of my head for each (let it be noted that I don't use weather teams myself, sun when I do, so I think it's fair to say that my opinion isn't terribly biased).
So what, would you have us ban Sand too? Or would you care to explain how Rain is still better?
Don't answer those, they were rhetorical. What I think a lot of people are struggling to realize is that Gen 5 is going to be a pretty weather-centric metagame, whether you lot like it or not. If you ban one weather, the others are gonna get free reign, and I don't like the idea of a metagame with Sand and not Rain, or vice versa.
I also think MofoAmbulance is right when he says it won't be as prominent as you all think it's gonna be (I personally see weather-centric teams each popping up about as often as Sand did last-gen, which wasn't that much-- Tyranitar was on a lot of teams, but few were weather-focused).
Hail makes Blizzard 100% accuracy and has Snow Cloak, you wanan ban that too? Come on, amn. Drizzle is not beaten by teams of "randomly assembled" pokes according to the guy above if it's being ude by a good player, and simply listing off points does not mean they are more valid. sand veil is not broken, and it does not break sand whatsoever. It is annoying. Not even as annoying as serene grace, ban that if you are that ban-happy. There are 2 Sand throw pokes, only one actually a major threat, while there are 3 incredibly good Swift Swimmers. DO the math. The boost to water attacks is a bigger deal than sand power, and only Landlos can make use of it. And passive damage? Really? Come on, 1/16 damage per turn is nothing to ban something over. Remember, quality of points over quantity.
i wouldnt include sand throw as something "more" bannable about sand then rain seeing as only two pokemon can abuse it vs around 7 + swim swimmers oh and also because rain+Swift swim is basically a sand throw+sand power which obviously is what sets apart the swift swimmers in the rain apart from the sand throwers and sand power abusers in the sand, how swift swimmers get both yet offensive sand abusers are limited to one
I'm not going to dignify all the comments about banning haxy things coming from a guy who was just arguing for a ban on something that's equally unbroken.
And yet, somehow, Moguryuu is the threat everyone's fearing, rather than specific rain sweepers.... say, Kabutops, who is comparable in that it is also an SD sweeper. :0 Though really, you can compare it to any of the swift swimmers in the same way, but Moguryuu is still the threat everyone prepares for, not Omastar or Ludicolo or Floatzel.
The beef I have with you two is that it kind of sounds like it's true that you don't play. I have no doubt that rain teams are plenty good, but I'm not at all convinced that rain-centric teams are any better than other commonly-used team strategies. At worst, all I see happening is teams starting to carry Thunder a little more often than Thunderbolt maybe, just like in Ubers... Change. You don't shun change because it's different.
I partially agree and disagree both with this quote... I agree that the metagame where all weather is banned and it essentially mimics gen 4 OU is bad, even stupid, which I'm sure everyone can agree with. But I think it's ridiculous to state that the metagame with all the auto-weather inducers unbanned will be entirely weather-based... There are reasons enough to run non-weather teams with all of the auto-weather Pokes still around, and even if we don't know all of them now, they'll get discovered when we get to playing with them. If they don't, then we'll know that Rain is broken, and be able to ban it. But in short, I think it's far too soon to consider banning Drizzle. :\
You forgot the fact that Water-types get the equivalent of a Cheer Up boost on their STAB, also Hydration Pokemon (Namely MANAPHY, but also lesser Pokemon like DD Lapras, Whiscash, etc). Even if you ban Swift Swim, there's no reason why I can't just start spamming Specs Starmie and doing mostly what Kingdra does right now except with less Speed (meh). If by the time Kerudio comes out and rain hasn't been banned, you'd be sure I'd just slap a Choice Specs on that watch everything die too.
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