Wrong. Why is Dragonite switching in on something with an Ice move (which is what you sound like when you say "sit there and wait for you")? Obviously you won't do that. And there is a major difference in Dragonite's and Salamence's special defenses. Dragonite just from sheer investment can survie weak unstabbed Icebeams even without Multi-Scale that would kill Salamence's and it is quite possible to even SET UP on weaker users of the move with Roost and Multi-Scale if they're switching in on you. Salamence could never hope to attempt that (he'd be either killing or dying). And oftentimes, Dragon Dance isn't needed when you can smack off hard with a mixed Draco Meteor. Salamence may have greater initial strength but as a Dragon Dancer, Dragonite's surviveability, greater switchins, and Multi-Scale/Roost make it easier to use and Dragonite is just as strong as an attacker as Salamence and is also a good mixed attacker (Super Power and the rain variants).
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish
- Thread starter reachzero
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Wrong. Why is Dragonite switching in on something with an Ice move (which is what you sound like when you say "sit there and wait for you")? Obviously you won't do that. And there is a major difference in Dragonite's and Salamence's special defenses. Dragonite just from sheer investment can survie weak unstabbed Icebeams even without Multi-Scale that would kill Salamence's and it is quite possible to even SET UP on weaker users of the move with Roost and Multi-Scale if they're switching in on you. Salamence could never hope to attempt that (he'd be either killing or dying). And oftentimes, Dragon Dance isn't needed when you can smack off hard with a mixed Draco Meteor. Salamence may have greater initial strength but as a Dragon Dancer, Dragonite's surviveability, greater switchins, and Multi-Scale/Roost make it easier to use and Dragonite is just as strong as an attacker as Salamence and is also a good mixed attacker (Super Power and the rain variants).
OMG, a Dragonite vs. Salamence debate! I thought I would never see one of these again.
I'm a DNite fanboy through and through having worked a lot on testing for the 5th Gen Analysis. After using him extensively in both the DW and OU tier on every team I made with a variety of different sets, I believe a few things to need to be addressed.
First, Bulky DDNite is overestimated, if not overrated. It is insanely hard to get +2 on the Bulky DDnite simply because even with multi-scale, many things will still 2HKO it which means you have to keep on roosting. Many things can survive a +1 Dragon Claw and then KO Dnite if you have taken any prior damage while setting up the DD in the first place. This means, you have to have taken 0dmg + have a DD in to make the bulk worth the investment. Moreover, status is a huge problem for a bulky DDnite since it won't kill the status-inducer with a +1 DClaw any time soon. For example, the Jellyfish with WoW can easily stop a sweep in the making. In short, the metagame today is just too fast-paced to afford 2 turns to set up.
Contrary to popular belief, Offensive DDnite is not completely overshadowed by Salamence since you can more or less guarantee a DD with multi-scale even with no defense investment. However, multi-scale does not force switches like Intimidate does due to the one-turn-use nature of the former. This means you should only set up on something which you know you can OHKO (usually with Outrage) after a +1. It also means you're very hesitant to switch in Dnite against an attack in the first place, instead preferring to send him in after a Pokemon has fainted so multi-scale can remain intact. The plus side is that Dnite can set up on special attackers as well as physical ones due to the broader protection multi-scale gives. Finally, the lack of speed is still ultimately reason why Salamence should be used in the Offensive DD position. However, I've been having a lot of luck putting ESpeed on my offensive DD which just destroys any Mischievous Heart users (except Sableye) and weakened revenged killers in the late game.
CBNite is still the best set for Dnite in my opinion due to the immediate power it brings. In this fast-paced meta, it's hard to even find time to DD once, so having a CB opens up so many options. With multi-scale, you can almost guarantee Dnite will launch at least one attack since sand + hail does damage at the end of the turn (assuming you sent Dnite in to revenge something). Sure, a physical wall can stop it, but this gen, most people use Nattorei, which does not have a recovery move. Thus, you can keep pounding it until it breaks. In fact, this is the current strategy I'm using in conjunction with a Specs Latios. Those two combined break through so many walls with limited to no prediction. Of course, CB ESpeed serves as an excellent revenge option, even against Dory.
Lastly, I just want to point out that Stealth Rock, while still a major concern, is not an automatic death sentence for multi-scale. Decent use of a MM pokemon (which serves other purposes as well) can ensure that it's not on the field more often than not.
I'm a DNite fanboy through and through having worked a lot on testing for the 5th Gen Analysis. After using him extensively in both the DW and OU tier on every team I made with a variety of different sets, I believe a few things to need to be addressed.
First, Bulky DDNite is overestimated, if not overrated. It is insanely hard to get +2 on the Bulky DDnite simply because even with multi-scale, many things will still 2HKO it which means you have to keep on roosting. Many things can survive a +1 Dragon Claw and then KO Dnite if you have taken any prior damage while setting up the DD in the first place. This means, you have to have taken 0dmg + have a DD in to make the bulk worth the investment. Moreover, status is a huge problem for a bulky DDnite since it won't kill the status-inducer with a +1 DClaw any time soon. For example, the Jellyfish with WoW can easily stop a sweep in the making. In short, the metagame today is just too fast-paced to afford 2 turns to set up.
Contrary to popular belief, Offensive DDnite is not completely overshadowed by Salamence since you can more or less guarantee a DD with multi-scale even with no defense investment. However, multi-scale does not force switches like Intimidate does due to the one-turn-use nature of the former. This means you should only set up on something which you know you can OHKO (usually with Outrage) after a +1. It also means you're very hesitant to switch in Dnite against an attack in the first place, instead preferring to send him in after a Pokemon has fainted so multi-scale can remain intact. The plus side is that Dnite can set up on special attackers as well as physical ones due to the broader protection multi-scale gives. Finally, the lack of speed is still ultimately reason why Salamence should be used in the Offensive DD position. However, I've been having a lot of luck putting ESpeed on my offensive DD which just destroys any Mischievous Heart users (except Sableye) and weakened revenged killers in the late game.
CBNite is still the best set for Dnite in my opinion due to the immediate power it brings. In this fast-paced meta, it's hard to even find time to DD once, so having a CB opens up so many options. With multi-scale, you can almost guarantee Dnite will launch at least one attack since sand + hail does damage at the end of the turn (assuming you sent Dnite in to revenge something). Sure, a physical wall can stop it, but this gen, most people use Nattorei, which does not have a recovery move. Thus, you can keep pounding it until it breaks. In fact, this is the current strategy I'm using in conjunction with a Specs Latios. Those two combined break through so many walls with limited to no prediction. Of course, CB ESpeed serves as an excellent revenge option, even against Dory.
Lastly, I just want to point out that Stealth Rock, while still a major concern, is not an automatic death sentence for multi-scale. Decent use of a MM pokemon (which serves other purposes as well) can ensure that it's not on the field more often than not.
Code:
Start of turn 2
The foe's Forretress used Spikes!
Spikes were scattered all around the feet of alphatron's team!
Wobbuffet used Encore!
The foe's Forretress received an encore!
Start of turn 3
alphatron called Wobbuffet back!
alphatron sent out Terakion!
Pointed stones dug into Terakion!
Terakion is floating on a balloon!
The foe's Forretress used Spikes!
Spikes were scattered all around the feet of alphatron's team!
[COLOR=#0000FF]
Start of turn 4[/COLOR]
bubbles called Forretress back!
bubbles sent out Gliscor!
Terakion used [COLOR=#A8A878]Swords Dance[/COLOR]!
Terakion's Attack sharply rose!
The foe's Gliscor's Toxic Orb activated!
[COLOR=#A040A0]The foe's Gliscor was poisoned![/COLOR]I'm seriously confused as to why nobody is using Wobbufett at all. I'm not sure if he's "broken" yet. But he's great. Encore nerf or not, Wobb still gives you at least one free turn. And one free turn is all you need to shell smash, sword's dance, etc.
With setup bait like Nattorei in every other battle, I'm having a hard time believing that Wobbs has lost his value. I mean, this is currently a weather metagame. Wobbs kills off all of the weather users save for Mixed Tyranitar.
alphatron, in reading that log, you realize that those turns absolutely favored the Forretress/Gliscor user, right? He got two layers of Spikes, and in return you got a +2 Terakion that will do 65% - 76.8% to Gliscor (assuming Gliscor has 245 speed and is Impish). Granted, this may be enough to beat Gliscor without it really crippling Terakion, depending on Gliscor's moveset, but it isn't tremendously different from simply bringing in Terakion normally on Forretress, except that you gave up an extra layer of Spikes. In my experience, the prime difficulty with using Wobbuffet now is that since the Encore nerf it simply does not do enough to justify the fact that it is a massive defensive liability--it's resistances are useless since it can't perform the functions that other Psychics can, such as stopping Roobushin (it'll just Bulk Up in Wobb's face, and Encore won't be enough of a deterrent). Since team slots are at an incredible premium now with so many threats to cover, spending a team slot on Wobbuffet just seems really risky now.
Just because a Pokémon is more popular, doesn't mean it's more powerful. While Dragonite has finally found a good niche, Mence is far more powerful in taking down walls, getting in crucial super effective attacks, and just KOing the opponent.
Reachzero, had terakion normally came in on forretress, it would have taken a gyro ball to the face upon trying to set up. Or at the least, forry would have used rapid spin to pop my balloon, keeping me from defeating Gliscor (and a few more pokemon on his team) in the first place. Minus 2 pokemon is worth a layer of spikes.
That is just one example. Coming in on Nattorei allows you to safegaurd the thunderwave and encore it, practically allowing another sweeper to come in for free (or Natt could use leech seed).
Even for the roobushin example you mentioned, encoring the bulk up isn't something roob can shrug off. Wobb can then switch to something like reuniclus or even slowbro to set up on him or outright KO him. With all the pokemon out there that NEED to be countered, yes, team slots are somewhat hard to find for him. But Wobb can still be used to handle such pokemon. Look at Latios for instance.
That is just one example. Coming in on Nattorei allows you to safegaurd the thunderwave and encore it, practically allowing another sweeper to come in for free (or Natt could use leech seed).
Even for the roobushin example you mentioned, encoring the bulk up isn't something roob can shrug off. Wobb can then switch to something like reuniclus or even slowbro to set up on him or outright KO him. With all the pokemon out there that NEED to be countered, yes, team slots are somewhat hard to find for him. But Wobb can still be used to handle such pokemon. Look at Latios for instance.
Banning Swift Swim as a whole is a little asinine. No Swift Swimmer is uncounterable, nor would it overcentralize anything. Gen 4 was rather overcentralized throughout, but people found it fun.
(yes I'm aware it's SS+Drizzle, but what idiot is using regular Rain? Y HALO THAR SAND STREAMAR)
Seems Sand will once again dominate, what with beasts like Excadrill running around.
(yes I'm aware it's SS+Drizzle, but what idiot is using regular Rain? Y HALO THAR SAND STREAMAR)
Seems Sand will once again dominate, what with beasts like Excadrill running around.
*Raises hand*
The only complaint I have with it is an over-reliance on focus miss for ttar. And some natty/blissey problems. I'm considering changing from focus miss to hammer arm on one or both of my kajin (sp?).
You know absolute shit about the metagame and how Rain teams function now. having Specs/Life Orb STAB Hurricanes being thrown in your face is just rediclous, considering the fact that you'll usually have to deal with that barrage from 2 different Pokemon who can kill off the Sandstreamers with Focus Blast/Hammer Arm.
Ridiculous, yadda yadda. So you're telling me Sand screwing non-Rock/Ground/Steels, making Rock-types have great Special Defense, screwing all other weathers, etc, is perfectly fine?
TTar/Hippo were perfectly viable Gen 4. Something tells me they're not bad anymore to where you have to make Rain entirely freaking useless.
"You can use Sandstorm, but no TTar/Hippo"
"You can use Ubers, just no Ubers"
"You can use NU, just no NU"
See a trend? You remove the only viable thing of a strategy, what's left?
Gen 4 had a lot of terrible balancing issues in OU, and hell, UU too that were left to be. Banning Swift Swim will just make Rain the useless pile it was in Gen 4, limiting newer Pokemon, and overall just letting Sand take over AGAIN.
TTar/Hippo were perfectly viable Gen 4. Something tells me they're not bad anymore to where you have to make Rain entirely freaking useless.
"You can use Sandstorm, but no TTar/Hippo"
"You can use Ubers, just no Ubers"
"You can use NU, just no NU"
See a trend? You remove the only viable thing of a strategy, what's left?
Gen 4 had a lot of terrible balancing issues in OU, and hell, UU too that were left to be. Banning Swift Swim will just make Rain the useless pile it was in Gen 4, limiting newer Pokemon, and overall just letting Sand take over AGAIN.
Landlorus is still ridiculous, 2hko's near everything in the game unboosted and OHKO's boosted, even with the 1.3 boost. Even the "standard" Bronzong cannot take 2 SD LO Stone Edge's. Its even more hilarious when you dont even need HP Ice as Stone Edge with a boost rapes Gliscor anyway so its free to run the optimal set imo and most deadly; SD/RP/SE/EQ. Rock Polish crushes offense and SD crushes slower teams.
Also people who are saying "Latios/Latias can take a hit from it and KO back", yeahno. With Sand and Rocks damage you lose to unboosted LO Stone Edge congrats. :\
Also people who are saying "Latios/Latias can take a hit from it and KO back", yeahno. With Sand and Rocks damage you lose to unboosted LO Stone Edge congrats. :\
Sand? But that's never been popular or dominant ever. Who ever heard of Sand? You know, that gimp one no one uses and gets progressively worse?
He benefits from Sand, should be just fine in OU then. Benefiting from Rain? Banned.
He benefits from Sand, should be just fine in OU then. Benefiting from Rain? Banned.
Like the wise sages from the Monster Hunter boards on gamefaqs once said:
"Cry moar."
Sand doesn't boost their STABs, so it's a LOT more managable than Rain.
The sand sweepers either get a boosted STAB or 2x Speed and therefore is easier to handle. Landorus DOES hit stupidly hard, but it's not exactly super easy to set up with him either, seeing as how LO cuts his life span pretty damn short.
No, it just effectively kills any hope of other weathers succeeding, with most Sand abusers being bulky.
If Sand haters can "cry moar", how about you "cry moar" about Swift Swim? The fact that it's banned in general just strengthens the point of "SAND PLSPLSPLS". Don't want anything to ever compete with Sand, do we?
If Sand haters can "cry moar", how about you "cry moar" about Swift Swim? The fact that it's banned in general just strengthens the point of "SAND PLSPLSPLS". Don't want anything to ever compete with Sand, do we?
Specs Starmie with Hydro pump.
Specs Kerudio with Hydro Pump.
Tornelos with Hurricane.
Dragonite with Hurricane.
There. How is rain offense dead?
Swift Swim? You don't really need it when you have high BP moves to spam along with already high speed.
Rain offense is still very scary
On the topic of scary, I've been using Specs Latios for a lot lately
....
it sucks.
The metagame is so prepared to take on Specs DMs and Ferrothorn is everywhere. Latios wasn't leaving anywhere near as much dent as I want.
However, I've gotten noticeably better results using Life Orb DM/HP Fire/Surf/Recover Latios as it pretty much leaves a dent on every team and it's not too difficult to catch stuff on the switch (since you maintain the ability to switch moves). This usually causes quite a bit of switching on the opponent's part and allows Latios to Recover those residual damage more easily and take advantage of his resistances better
On the topic of scary, I've been using Specs Latios for a lot lately
....
it sucks.
The metagame is so prepared to take on Specs DMs and Ferrothorn is everywhere. Latios wasn't leaving anywhere near as much dent as I want.
However, I've gotten noticeably better results using Life Orb DM/HP Fire/Surf/Recover Latios as it pretty much leaves a dent on every team and it's not too difficult to catch stuff on the switch (since you maintain the ability to switch moves). This usually causes quite a bit of switching on the opponent's part and allows Latios to Recover those residual damage more easily and take advantage of his resistances better
There, I'm gonna help linking you to these two posts and this thread.
Also, Tornadus and Thundurus beg to differ about Rain Offense having nothing besides Swift Swim.
I agree Jibaku I've been testing around and the LO Latios set works out great, you can't put choice on it because there's so many Pokemon ready to take a Draco Meteor, and switching in and out just adds on damage. LO Latios or no Latios in my opinion.
Water Absorb x500
Vaporeon <3 Great Wish passing and it's immune to the only thing left of Rain.
It's all going to be banned regardless. Crippling the only thing reliably good about Rain.
Starmie? Get T-Tar in. Instantly dead.
Kerudio? No idea.
Tornelos? Get T-Tar in. Water/Flying, right?
Dragonite? Get T-Tar in. Instantly dead if Scarfed.
Banning SS (the only really attractive part of Rain offense) from all tiers was just furthering the point. Furthermore, the proposal was essentially "I don't want [xxx] but we NEED [xxx]" for at least five sentences.
Vaporeon <3 Great Wish passing and it's immune to the only thing left of Rain.
It's all going to be banned regardless. Crippling the only thing reliably good about Rain.
Starmie? Get T-Tar in. Instantly dead.
Kerudio? No idea.
Tornelos? Get T-Tar in. Water/Flying, right?
Dragonite? Get T-Tar in. Instantly dead if Scarfed.
Banning SS (the only really attractive part of Rain offense) from all tiers was just furthering the point. Furthermore, the proposal was essentially "I don't want [xxx] but we NEED [xxx]" for at least five sentences.
You know, the fact that nearly every "good" battler in Standard OU has at least a check or counter for Specs Latios kind of indicates that it's a big deal. The same logic can be applied for just about any threatening Pokemon in OU, though I see teams specifically having pivots for Latios, much often. I mean, hey. A team could be weak to Infernape, another could be weak to Kingdra, or some other team could be weak to Mamoswine, of all things. All teams have weaknesses, but in today's metagame, you do NOT want to be weak against Latios (and Sandstorm teams, that's a given). Most, if not all, the teams I have been seeing pack some kind of protection/pivot for Latios, which says a lot.
In sight of Latios, many players go for a Specially defensive Ferrothorn and tries preserving it throughout the match, in hopes of not catching Trick or Hidden Power Fire. And yeah, Trick happens.
Again, I'm just pointing things out. Just because a Pokemon/(item/ability) causes a residual trend / adaption in the metagame doesn't make it a 100% Suspect, though Latios seems to fit in the category in certain ways.
Also, when did we get into a Dragonite vs Salamence argument? One of them being a Suspect right now is a bit questionable.
On a small note, Rain. Isn't. Banned. And it's still a good playstyle. Add a Breloom in, and your "Rain counters" are essentially dead. Tyranitar? Can't really make an impact unless it was something specific like Scarf or Specially Defensive. Rain doesn't deserve to be more restricted anymore.
In sight of Latios, many players go for a Specially defensive Ferrothorn and tries preserving it throughout the match, in hopes of not catching Trick or Hidden Power Fire. And yeah, Trick happens.
Again, I'm just pointing things out. Just because a Pokemon/(item/ability) causes a residual trend / adaption in the metagame doesn't make it a 100% Suspect, though Latios seems to fit in the category in certain ways.
Also, when did we get into a Dragonite vs Salamence argument? One of them being a Suspect right now is a bit questionable.
On a small note, Rain. Isn't. Banned. And it's still a good playstyle. Add a Breloom in, and your "Rain counters" are essentially dead. Tyranitar? Can't really make an impact unless it was something specific like Scarf or Specially Defensive. Rain doesn't deserve to be more restricted anymore.
I've been using a Dragon Pulse/Thunderbolt/Surf/HP Fire Expert Belt Latios bluffing Choice to some success. It's really great to lure out stuff like Scizor hoping to revenge a Dragon Pulse kill and take it out with HP Fire, and stuff. However, I will admit that the reason I'm running that set is simply because I'm not using Latios as a sweeper but simply to try to lure out and kill certain things that give me trouble--I usually try to use Scrafty to clean up--as well as my "oh shit" button when TR's down (hence, no Draco Meteor). Not to mention I don't win consistently and I can't say that all my opponents I do beat are the best, so yeah.
It's a good playstyle for now. Until all the Sand users want it banned. Like they did for SS. They neutered it completely. Kingdra fell from great sweeper to 100% worthless. When a Water-type considers HP Fire because he can't use his GOOD strategies, we have problems.
1)I believe it was Atheno who suggested a switch-in, then DD, then roost strategy, and that is beat by literally anything with an ice attack, essentially forcing you to take out the opponent, leaving you at +1, and in a worse position than a Mence who could have been at +1 after the free turn anyway.
2)Dnite will not be taking Ice Beams without multi-scale or max SpD, which would mean you would need even MORE DDs to do any damage or to outspeed anything.
3)Mence is a much better mixed attacker, it has higher SpA and can run fire blast on the DD set, which Dnite CAN'T.
4)Dragonite and Mence have THE EXACT SAME TYPING, essentially identical defenses, and have the exact same switch0ins because of that
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