np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

[yee]

Im gonna say as a brief user of Thundurus, I think it may be broken.

To give you an idea of the power it has +2 LO Focus Blast does roughly 80% to 252/252 Bold Blissey, so you can imagine how many other things it can kill after a boost. That on its own is impressive, but its Fighting/Electric/Ice coverage is incredible, if you have any sort of entry hazard up for Shedinja that is completely unresisted. It could also pull a trump card and use Agility, however I find this ineffective as it is paper frail with an offensive EV spread and needs to OHKO everything. Besides specially defensive Unaware Quagsire, there isn't a single reliable switch for this thing, not that im downing Quaggy, I often used him for a physical wall. Well there is also Cresselia but +2 Thunder is a real wrecking force and you need more than just max HP to take that.

That being said, anything faster or something that can become faster, such as Azumarill w/Aqua Jet, Blaziken, and scarfmons all handle it if they get in safely. Its just the fact that there isn't a single pokemon out there (well, Shedinja) that Thundurus cant break through. Everything takes huge damage after a Nasty Plot besides that unless you're an Electric/Poison, Electric/Bug, or Electric/Psychic(so you resist Focus Blast/Thunder while being neutral to HP Ice). As far as i know Galvantula gets overpowered.

The other reason I think Thundurus deserves a closer look is because I suddenly started winning a lot more when I used him on a RD team. He destroys ANYTHING slower than him, even max HP latias get killed at +2. So while you can revenge it, you cant hold off its attacks at all so I believe it deserves consideration.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Im gonna say as a brief user of Thundurus, I think it may be broken.

Thank goodness you at least said "may" be broken. It's true, with some Pokemon it's quite obvious that they're broken, but even then, a Pokemon shouldn't be determined broken after "brief usage"

 

[Heartgold]

Thundurus is a very good pokemon, a closer look may actually be helpful.

To my surprise what makes Garchomp more manageable compared to last gen? I haven't seen a lot.

 

[Benlisted]

We've stabilized the metagame; it's time to go back and limit a few past bans that were a bit too far-reaching, such as the Swift Swim + Drizzle ban.

Out of interest, what course of action would you take to limit said bans? The only practical one I can think of is limiting pokemon like Kingdra, Ludicolo rather than all swift swimmers, but that was shot down in the initial discussion of the issue.

Im gonna say as a brief user of Thundurus, I think it may be broken.

To give you an idea of the power it has +2 LO Focus Blast does roughly 80% to 252/252 Bold Blissey, so you can imagine how many other things it can kill after a boost. That on its own is impressive, but its Fighting/Electric/Ice coverage is incredible, if you have any sort of entry hazard up for Shedinja that is completely unresisted. It could also pull a trump card and use Agility, however I find this ineffective as it is paper frail with an offensive EV spread and needs to OHKO everything. Besides specially defensive Unaware Quagsire, there isn't a single reliable switch for this thing, not that im downing Quaggy, I often used him for a physical wall. Well there is also Cresselia but +2 Thunder is a real wrecking force and you need more than just max HP to take that.

That being said, anything faster or something that can become faster, such as Azumarill w/Aqua Jet, Blaziken, and scarfmons all handle it if they get in safely. Its just the fact that there isn't a single pokemon out there (well, Shedinja) that Thundurus cant break through. Everything takes huge damage after a Nasty Plot besides that unless you're an Electric/Poison, Electric/Bug, or Electric/Psychic(so you resist Focus Blast/Thunder while being neutral to HP Ice). As far as i know Galvantula gets overpowered.

The main thing I'd argue against this is that yes, +2 Thundrus is very powerful, but to get there it has to use up a turn, letting quite a few scarfers who can easily OHKO it get in relatively safely to take it out, same goes for priority users or even things like Raikou who simply outspeed. Anything neutral to all its attacks can come in reasonably easily, and those weak to one can take a risk to get in if you don't want to sac something. It's somewhat similar to Terakion in that it is deadly with a boost, but getting said boost freely is the issue. SR wearing it down doesn't help if you can keep forcing it out, either.

To my surprise what makes Garchomp more manageable compared to last gen? I haven't seen a lot.

Speed creep IMO, as well as power creep meaning his strength is no longer such a standout. Speed creep mostly however, as now the genies and beasts in particular can outspeed him, letting them revenge the SDer.

 

[TLK]

Thundurus is a very good pokemon, a closer look may actually be helpful.

To my surprise what makes Garchomp more manageable compared to last gen? I haven't seen a lot.

While it's still without counters as compared to last gen, it's easier to keep it check with the Lati twins, the genies, and anything like Heatran with a Balloon.

 

[capefeather]

I don't know about Thundurus. I think that people have become accustomed to just staying in and hitting [insert threat here] as hard as possible and then priority revenging it. I think that the widespread use of this practice now is what's been preventing anything from completely overrunning offensive and balanced teams. I haven't used NP Thundurus, but I don't see how it would be much different from my experiences with non-NP Thundurus and SD Landorus. I'm just starting to dislike Life Orb sets in general because people are so easily taking advantage of that recoil now.

 

[November Blue]

Thundurus is one of the top OU threats right now IMO. I haven't used the nasty plotter much, nor have I seen it, but on every occasion that I did, it beat me until I put mamoswine on my team. It's powerful, yes, but why does everyone ignore the teasing heart sets?

Base 111 speed makes him the fastest common THer besides whimsicott, who never invests is speed anyway meaning he can check all the others if he switches in safely. His priority taunt is a powerful asset in the lead game, but priority thunderwave is what makes him really shine. He checks almost every fast frail sweeper out there with one move bar ground types. Paralysis is a death sentence for most sweepers, but surprisingly (to me, at least) none of them switch out. I use him as a lead with taunt, twave, tbolt and grass knot, and if he has an intact sash, he can stop almost any sweep without fail.

Whimsicott and sableye can pull this off to a lesser extent, but their stun spore and WoW have lesser accuracy, (sableye's WoW failed to hit garchomp thrice in sand, I lost that battle) and they have no offensive prescence and low speed.

He can even attack on the physical side. He has all the right stuff in all the right places. Not uber IMO, but definitely top tier.

 

[HotInTheStreets]

Has any body ever tried using a Cloud Nine pokemon to effectively counter a drizzle/SSwim team? Is it even technically viable? I'm looking at the move pools and I haven't really heard much discussion about it's usefulness. But I can see Altaria + Draco Meteor and Lickilicky + Thunder/Thunberbolt giving a drizzleteod and kingdra team trouble

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Has any body ever tried using a Cloud Nine pokemon to effectively counter a drizzle/SSwim team? Is it even technically viable? I'm looking at the move pools and I haven't really heard much discussion about it's usefulness. But I can see Altaria + Draco Meteor and Lickilicky + Thunder/Thunberbolt giving a drizzleteod and kingdra team trouble

Drizzle + Swift Swim as a combo is banned, so we can't exactly give you a proper answer. I'll tell you one thing though; Cloud Nine Pokemon are essentially a failing, gimmicky strategy. Period. Before it was banned, you could easily defeat them and continue on your way. I don't even know what kind of Rain Pokemon Golduck counters. Altaria and Lickilicky? Yeah, let's pretend they never 2HKO Ludicolo. Or Ferrothorn.

 

[Meru]

Thundurus is one of the top OU threats right now IMO. I haven't used the nasty plotter much, nor have I seen it, but on every occasion that I did, it beat me until I put mamoswine on my team. It's powerful, yes, but why does everyone ignore the teasing heart sets?

Base 111 speed makes him the fastest common THer besides whimsicott, who never invests is speed anyway meaning he can check all the others if he switches in safely. His priority taunt is a powerful asset in the lead game, but priority thunderwave is what makes him really shine. He checks almost every fast frail sweeper out there with one move bar ground types. Paralysis is a death sentence for most sweepers, but surprisingly (to me, at least) none of them switch out. I use him as a lead with taunt, twave, tbolt and grass knot, and if he has an intact sash, he can stop almost any sweep without fail.

Whimsicott and sableye can pull this off to a lesser extent, but their stun spore and WoW have lesser accuracy, (sableye's WoW failed to hit garchomp thrice in sand, I lost that battle) and they have no offensive prescence and low speed.

He can even attack on the physical side. He has all the right stuff in all the right places. Not uber IMO, but definitely top tier.

Agreed with this. Not sure why people aren't even mentioning Teasing Heart because my normal encounter with Thundurus involves sacrificing something to the Nasty Plot, then revenging him with my scarfer only to have it paralyzed.

And if the scarfer gets a full paralysis on that turn, you're screwed.

 

[HotInTheStreets]

Drizzle + Swift Swim as a combo is banned, so we can't exactly give you a proper answer. I'll tell you one thing though; Cloud Nine Pokemon are essentially a failing, gimmicky strategy. Period. Before it was banned, you could easily defeat them and continue on your way. I don't even know what kind of Rain Pokemon Golduck counters. Altaria and Lickilicky? Yeah, let's pretend they never 2HKO Ludicolo. Or Ferrothorn.

Just to the ability to switch in a pokemon to cancel weather effects without using a turn should be valuable enough. But take Altaria for instance it can easily survive most common attacks with resistance to most priority attacks. Access to roost also helps its durability. Just having it to nullify weather abusers should be less than just a gimmick. But if you add in Heal bell, roar, haze safe guard. It can be a very useful support pokemon. Same case can be made for lickiliky as well. Lickilicky has very decent stats with an exception to speed but it has a very deep movepool.

 

[TLK]

It only works when the Cloud Nine Pokemon is in play. If it reset the effects until the weather summoner came in, maybe I'd consider it. Even still, Altaria, Lickillily just aren't that great in this metagame full of: fast dragons and fighting types.

If you're that worried, having your own weather summoner is probably the best option you can do.

 

[GameMaster0000]

Has any body ever tried using a Cloud Nine pokemon to effectively counter a drizzle/SSwim team? Is it even technically viable? I'm looking at the move pools and I haven't really heard much discussion about it's usefulness. But I can see Altaria + Draco Meteor and Lickilicky + Thunder/Thunberbolt giving a drizzleteod and kingdra team trouble

Only if Cloud Nine can delete weather. But if not, No.

 

[PK Gaming]

Hey wait are we talking about Thundurus now? Yeah I agree he has no counters (The closest counter is Specially defensive Camerupt, who has a decent chance of being killed by +2 Focus Blast)

Thats why I run rocks on all of my teams. SR and a combination of smart switching while packing several pokemon who naturally outspeed is how I check Thundurus. Its great (easily top 5) but not broken imo.

Sub + 3 attack varients are damn annoying though.

I'm really trying to build a team that counters all weather base team. The weather effects can easily be deleted but using sunny day, rain dance etc. but then switching in drizzleteod, droughtales, ttar just cancels that change without using a turn, I figure Cloud Nine will even the field and give the ability to take down the sand, shift swim abusers while they don't gain advantages from the weather effects.. But hey maybe I just have to experiment using different team combinations but gimmick or not for gen 5 I'ma try to make a weather abuser counter since the metagame revolves are the weather this gen.

None of the Cloud nine users are strong enough to beat opposing weather teams. The closest thing you have is Scarf Golduck (fucking Doryuuzu trolling with base 88 speed VS Golducks base 85 speed...) and even then its kinda lackluster. If Cloud Nine completely cancelled out weather effects you could make a case for them, but they don't so you're out of luck.

 

[Cherub Agent]

Mamoswine can come in on anything but focus blast (predictable) and take it out with Ice Shard. Rocks, weather and LO also really wear it down too.

Holy shit it's Salamence from last gen.

 

[HotInTheStreets]

Only if Cloud Nine can delete weather. But if not, No.

I'm really trying to build a team that counters all weather base team. The weather effects can easily be deleted by using sunny day, rain dance etc. but then switching in drizzleteod, droughtales, ttar just cancels that change without using a turn, I figure Cloud Nine will even the field and give the ability to take down the sand, shift swim abusers while they don't gain advantages from the weather effects.. But hey maybe I just have to experiment using different team combinations but gimmick or not for gen 5 I'ma try to make a weather abuser counter since the metagame revolves are the weather this gen.

 

[PlainN]

If you feel the weather inducer is about to come in (after you used your weather move), then simply use Sunny Day/Rain Dance again. The weather inducer will enter, change the weather, then you'll use the move, changing the weather again into something that is favorable for your team. This forces your opponent to either do a double switch (back to the inducer) or live with the unfavorable weather.

 

[Raikaria]

May I just point out, it's all well and good using Thunder/Focus Blast/HP Ice on the same set... but...

Tyranitar or Hippowdon [Who dosen't fear Focus Blast as much] make Thunder 50% accurate
Focus Miss is... Focus Miss
HP Ice is just weak

There are weaknesses in that set. I for one, would use Thunderbolt, just so that random SandStreamer/Ninetails/Abomosnow don't make Thunder miss.

Anyway, I'm bored of pure offense. I'm going to test out Sand-assisted Stall, see if it still works in 5th Gen. Course, I'll probobly need Azumarill too, to cover Blaziken, Landos, and Dory...

 

[Aldaron]

Yeah, Scarfers are pretty much the answer to everything. I use Scarf Rotom-W and Scarf Landlos, and I have little trouble with sweepers of any sort.

I agree with many other suggestions that there are no suspects. We've stabilized the metagame; it's time to go back and limit a few past bans that were a bit too far-reaching, such as the Swift Swim + Drizzle ban.

I don't like what this post implies. From everything I've gathered from nearly every half decent player I've talked to, the only reason we've been able to reach a stabilized metagame is because teams don't have to overcompensate for Rain Swift Swim sweepers, and the balance in team building is shifted towards checking the sand sweepers. The mere presence of Drizzle itself also keeps Sand / Sun checked.

I would very much argue it is BECAUSE of the Drizzle + Swift Swim ban that not only have we reached such a stable metagame (note how that ban + Manaphy stabilized the game merely 1 stage after so many people were complaining how chaotic it was) but why we won't continue to ban future threats.

I also don't like that you claim it is "far-reaching." Sure, it might go against your personal philosophy of how rulesets should be determined for metagames, but please don't play politician and attempt to push that propaganda on the community. You can state your philosophy but to state it is "far-reaching" is simply unnecessary.

What is your proposal, remove the restriction and switch back to last stage without Manaphy? Or arbitrarily choose random Swift Swimmers to ban, in spite of the fact that Kingdra / Ludicolo / Kabutops all have useful niches in a non Swift Swim role?

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

Thunder is 70% accurate in sand

 

[Benlisted]

Paralysis is a death sentence for most sweepers, but surprisingly (to me, at least) none of them switch out. I use him as a lead with taunt, twave, tbolt and grass knot, and if he has an intact sash, he can stop almost any sweep without fail.

Personally, unless my sweeper is not gonna be sweeping the rest of your team (or has priority) I'd never leave it in on a Thundurus to get paralysed. Most teams have something to sac to status which can from then on be used to absorb other status.

Drizzle + Swift Swim as a combo is banned, so we can't exactly give you a proper answer. I'll tell you one thing though; Cloud Nine Pokemon are essentially a failing, gimmicky strategy. Period. Before it was banned, you could easily defeat them and continue on your way. I don't even know what kind of Rain Pokemon Golduck counters. Altaria and Lickilicky? Yeah, let's pretend they never 2HKO Ludicolo. Or Ferrothorn.

Lickilicky was actually quite a good counter to weather abusers - having the power to beat them all and the bulk to withstand their hits, even if it was so slow it had to use a Scarf. Altaria and Golduck were much less effective, but Lickilicky was so specialised that using it was often not worth it when you could check weather with better things.

 

[Thorhammer]

Out of interest, what course of action would you take to limit said bans? The only practical one I can think of is limiting pokemon like Kingdra, Ludicolo rather than all swift swimmers, but that was shot down in the initial discussion of the issue.

I believe that suggestion was shot down because as it was originally proposed, it would mean that Kingdra, Kabutops, and Ludicolo would be banned from using Swift Swim alongside Drizzle, which would add another level of complexity. If we say that the ban occurring specifically alongside Drizzle does not affect the complexity, as was accepted as a precedent for the proposal, such a ban would still be banning a Pokemon + Ability combination, which was already shot down, rather than a specific ability, which was already accepted. But by the same token, banning a specific Pokemon has also, of course, been accepted.

My suggestion for how to proceed from here is the same as it's always been. Ban Manaphy, Kingdra, Kabutops, and Ludicolo from being used on any team containing Drizzle. The four of them can be used on any other team and anything else normally permitted can be used under Drizzle, including any other Swift Swim users. Obviously, this isn't necessarily a perfect solution, as it's possible that Manaphy will still be broken outside of Drizzle, and it's also possible that other Swift Swim users might turn out to be broken under Drizzle, but I think this is the best starting place. We've already banned everything that's broken both inside and outside of Drizzle; it's time now to make sure that those things are the only things we're banning.

I don't like what this post implies. From everything I've gathered from nearly every half decent player I've talked to, the only reason we've been able to reach a stabilized metagame is because teams don't have to overcompensate for Rain Swift Swim sweepers, and the balance in team building is shifted towards checking the sand sweepers. The mere presence of Drizzle itself also keeps Sand / Sun checked.

I would very much argue it is BECAUSE of the Drizzle + Swift Swim ban that not only have we reached such a stable metagame (note how that ban + Manaphy stabilized the game merely 1 stage after so many people were complaining how chaotic it was) but why we won't continue to ban future threats.

I also don't like that you claim it is "far-reaching." Sure, it might go against your personal philosophy of how rulesets should be determined for metagames, but please don't play politician and attempt to push that propaganda on the community. You can state your philosophy but to state it is "far-reaching" is simply unnecessary.

What is your proposal, remove the restriction and switch back to last stage without Manaphy? Or arbitrarily choose random Swift Swimmers to ban, in spite of the fact that Kingdra / Ludicolo / Kabutops all have useful niches in a non Swift Swim role?

I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding here. My views are above. Certain Swift Swim users, as well as Manaphy, are certainly broken under Drizzle conditions, but it seems to me that under your proposal, we can ban those things without banning other things that aren't broken.

If this goes against the intent of your proposal, I apologize, and I will withdraw my arguments.

 

[alamaster]

What is your proposal, remove the restriction and switch back to last stage without Manaphy? Or arbitrarily choose random Swift Swimmers to ban, in spite of the fact that Kingdra / Ludicolo / Kabutops all have useful niches in a non Swift Swim role?

Iirc that was Pocket's proposal, and I only voted for yours for 2 things:

1) The chance to keep drizzle OU without banning it completely
2) The chance that Pocket's proposal would see the light of day

Honestly I have yet to see any of those 3 pokemon (and I doubt I'd ever see kabutops lol). They may have niches in....UU when we get it, but speaking for Kingdra as it's the only one I've used it just doesn't measure up to this metagame's standards for power. Against non weather teams it has been doing okay but vs SS/Sun (most teams) it's garbage. I'd have no problem banning those 3 if Swift Swim came back and they were indeed broken. The only one I ever nominated and felt was uber in the rain was Kingdra anyway.

 

[Bologo]

Although it probably isn't used much, Specially Defensive Quagsire (252 HP/252 SpD Careful), ie. the Curser or even Stockpile variants, are a pretty good counter to Thundurus.

Timid LO Focus Blast: 349 Atk vs 251 Def & 394 HP (120 Base Power): 156 - 184 (39.59% - 46.70%)

Thanks to Unaware, this is the max he's going to do with Focus Blast. Quagsire can then start Cursing/Stockpiling and Recovering. And I know that he won't enjoy having to use Recover over and over, but let's face it, Focus Blast is going to miss sooner or later.

Quagsire is immune to Thunder/Thunderbolt, and HP Ice will do laughable damage. The only way Thundurus can really get past him is with HP Grass, which it doesn't appear that he uses.

And it's not as if Quagsire is totally uncommon either. When I was really high on the ladder, I actually saw it used quite a bit, oddly enough. It's a good counter to stuff like Scrafty and Conkeldurr, while being pretty strong against a lot of boosters in OU.

 

[Nanoswine]

SpDef Quagsire

I theorymonned Quagsire as a counter a while ago, but then I tried it out and it isn't really that great. It does a good job of stopping Thundurus (unless it carries Grass Knot -__-), but aside from Thundurus there aren't many prominent special boosting sweepers around. It also can't counter things like Doryuuzu, Terakion, and other SDers anymore, because it takes significantly more damage from them.