See post 2060. You are nitpicking
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish
- Thread starter reachzero
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Nitpicking in a arguement? INCONCIEVEABLE!!!
but seriously, being forced to run two priority abusers/Slowbor just feel safe against Blazekin is utter bullshit, and apparantley, a majority of others think so to, and who knows, maybe we'll test Blazekin later down the road?
Bottom line:rain teams can use gliscor and that isn't overcentrilizing because it isn't solely checking blaze. Sand teams can use dory/scarfed pokes and they always use them. Switching them is easy if you sac a poke. Sure it gets a free kill but you can revenge it back, like scizor in gen 4. And blaze doesn't start at +2+2.If you don't run weather you can run some priority. Saying “A counters B and C who counters blaze” is irrelevant because you can have D to counter A. If you build a good team it should cover every threat. Talking about weather wars is a valid argument but if thats the case, shouldn't venusaur be banned?
It's nothing like Scizor in Gen IV...
And it gets a free kill... yay it's killed something, has speed boosts and probably atk boosts. You send out something to revenge it? It's either too fast, or really hasn't set up yet and thus doesn't mind switching out very much- and it's already gotten a kill.
Also, politoed + gliscor is another 2 pokemon required, and if you have to let blaziken kill politoed to get up rain, then blaziken can then switch out and they bring in ninetails eventually, meaning gliscor no longer counters.
And it gets a free kill... yay it's killed something, has speed boosts and probably atk boosts. You send out something to revenge it? It's either too fast, or really hasn't set up yet and thus doesn't mind switching out very much- and it's already gotten a kill.
Also, politoed + gliscor is another 2 pokemon required, and if you have to let blaziken kill politoed to get up rain, then blaziken can then switch out and they bring in ninetails eventually, meaning gliscor no longer counters.
Like WHAT? Scizor in gen IV? How did that ever get a free kill?
And ANY Pokemon is easy to switch into if you sac a poke...
And what if it... switches out? When it comes back in, you're going to have to sac another poke again, and that's how you lose a match...
B and C don't counter Blaze individually though. B can pick off Blaze with priority after you sac C to get some priority damage on Blaze. Also, Blaze can still finish off your team even if you manage to get rid of Sun halfway through its sweep.
The general consensus seems to be "Ban a pokemon, or ban an ability" because otherwise we would have different "formes" of Blaziken for different tiers. Sure, it wouldn't be unmanagable if it didn't have Speed Boost, but this is a case where I think banning the pokemon at its best was better than forcing you to use a mediocre in comparison Blaze Blaziken to play in OU. My two cents on Garchomp- I don't have a solid opinion. I was pissed when my Draco Meteor missed it when SS was up but I noticed it pisses me off just as much when it misses outside of SS with evasion items banned. Now I use bulky Cloyster so it can't possibly trouble me lol
For the multiple posts saying : 'Why ban Blaziken, why not Ban Blaziken + Speed Boost?'
1: Alderon's proposal was done because otherwise, at least 3 pokemon would have been made Uber, or worse, a whole playstyle destroyed [Rain Stall], as Collateral damage. It also also an Ability + Ability ban, not a pokemon + ability.
2: Moody was blanket banned, on everything that had it. It was a DW exclusive ability, and violated the Evasion Clause anyway. If we wanted to replicate this to save Blaziken, we'd have to ban Speed Boost on Ninjask [Banning Ninjask outright], and Yanma/Yanmega. Both are viable users, and Yanma is an NFE...
The ability is not broken on either of these pokemon, which leads to the assumptsion that Speed Boost is not broken, Blaziken breaks Speed Boost.
Therefor, both an Alderon style ban, and a blanket ability ban are out of the question. You can't bend the rules for one pokemon, even if the other sets are not broken. Latias wasn't banned in Gen 4 for it's support set, was it? But that set still got banned.
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I'd use an analogy of banning Serene Grace on Skymin, but not on Togekiss/Jirachi, to make it OU, but it has no alternate ability. In fact, no Ubers do.
1: Alderon's proposal was done because otherwise, at least 3 pokemon would have been made Uber, or worse, a whole playstyle destroyed [Rain Stall], as Collateral damage. It also also an Ability + Ability ban, not a pokemon + ability.
2: Moody was blanket banned, on everything that had it. It was a DW exclusive ability, and violated the Evasion Clause anyway. If we wanted to replicate this to save Blaziken, we'd have to ban Speed Boost on Ninjask [Banning Ninjask outright], and Yanma/Yanmega. Both are viable users, and Yanma is an NFE...
The ability is not broken on either of these pokemon, which leads to the assumptsion that Speed Boost is not broken, Blaziken breaks Speed Boost.
Therefor, both an Alderon style ban, and a blanket ability ban are out of the question. You can't bend the rules for one pokemon, even if the other sets are not broken. Latias wasn't banned in Gen 4 for it's support set, was it? But that set still got banned.
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I'd use an analogy of banning Serene Grace on Skymin, but not on Togekiss/Jirachi, to make it OU, but it has no alternate ability. In fact, no Ubers do.
Can we all just stop discussing Blaziken and focus on the standings of the other suspects? Blaziken was banned this round and that is not going to change unless, for some reason, the majority of people next round decide to nominate its return AND it gets voted back to OU, which I don't see happening.
I'm not against general discussion by any means, but it isn't really going to lead to anything productive, at least in this thread. I'd much rather talk about the other majority suspects in particular. That said...
What is it about Deoxys-S that led to this sudden nomination and majority vote for it? It is considerably weaker than the rest of the metagame with its base 95 offenses, relying on coverage and the severe weakening of most pokemon to be able to sweep. Its speed is nice, but it is outrun by a few Chlorophyll sweepers this gen and also loses to various Scarfers + Excadrill.
Dual Screens? It isn't the only pokemon capable of using them. Latios has Screens + Memento, Azelf has screens + boom, Jirachi has screens + Wish, etc. This isn't a unique niche for it and it shouldn't be treated as the be all-end all strategy that it was last gen.
Then there's its role as hazard layer, which has taken a harsh, harsh hit this generation with the lessened effectiveness of suicide leads, the presence of better hazard setters (Hippowdon, Skarmory, and Ferrothorn especially), new abilities in the form of Magic Bounce, and the buffed effects of Magic Coat. Deoxys-S will often gain 2 layers at best in my experience, which is no better, and often worse, than the multiple layers that Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Forretress, and others can accomplish. If it runs Taunt...it can be bounced back easily, while it is helpless against Xatu and Espeon. And unlike the pokemon I mentioned, it is much easier to kill, meaning that it has a smaller window to get those hazards down in the first place.
I'm really just not seeing where Deoxys-S is broken this metagame, in any way, shape or form. Hopefully someone can enlighten me.
I'm not against general discussion by any means, but it isn't really going to lead to anything productive, at least in this thread. I'd much rather talk about the other majority suspects in particular. That said...
What is it about Deoxys-S that led to this sudden nomination and majority vote for it? It is considerably weaker than the rest of the metagame with its base 95 offenses, relying on coverage and the severe weakening of most pokemon to be able to sweep. Its speed is nice, but it is outrun by a few Chlorophyll sweepers this gen and also loses to various Scarfers + Excadrill.
Dual Screens? It isn't the only pokemon capable of using them. Latios has Screens + Memento, Azelf has screens + boom, Jirachi has screens + Wish, etc. This isn't a unique niche for it and it shouldn't be treated as the be all-end all strategy that it was last gen.
Then there's its role as hazard layer, which has taken a harsh, harsh hit this generation with the lessened effectiveness of suicide leads, the presence of better hazard setters (Hippowdon, Skarmory, and Ferrothorn especially), new abilities in the form of Magic Bounce, and the buffed effects of Magic Coat. Deoxys-S will often gain 2 layers at best in my experience, which is no better, and often worse, than the multiple layers that Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Forretress, and others can accomplish. If it runs Taunt...it can be bounced back easily, while it is helpless against Xatu and Espeon. And unlike the pokemon I mentioned, it is much easier to kill, meaning that it has a smaller window to get those hazards down in the first place.
I'm really just not seeing where Deoxys-S is broken this metagame, in any way, shape or form. Hopefully someone can enlighten me.
Bolded because I'm pretty sure Evasion Clause only referred to moves, and even then I'm entirely sure Acupressure isn't banned despite violating the Evasion clause moreso than Moody by, y'know, being a move.
Also, Drought + Speed Boost ban would be viable if you're looking for a way to arbitrarily ban Blaze + SB without banning things like Ninjask. Best part is, we have precedent for it.
Also, I'm still interested in what exactly "uncompetitive" is defined as.
while he is dangerous, Blaziken does not deserved to be banned. While he is a monster in the sun, and still viable without it, he is not unkillable. If I have read correctly, he can be checked by Slowbrow, who heals off the damage though switching, and possibly an Unaware Quagsire. Outside the sun, these two are more than capable of taking him down with STAB water moves.
Additionally, I would like to point out that Chandelour with Flash Fire is actually immune to both his stabs, and can easily hit back with Psychic. It might also be noteworthy that HJK will miss due to typing, dealing damage to Blaziken when any ghost switches in.
Trickrooms are also also the bane of this guy, As He gets slower wach turn.
Aldaron's proposal may have referred to itself as a special case, but it was unclear to what extent it was a special case, and it was never officially defined as being a special case. If it is to actually be considered a special case, an official poll and decision must be made to determine if and to what extent it should be considered a special case. At present, that has not occurred.
Blaziken would not have seen usage in OU, but OU is not the only tier being affected.
Complex bans that could happen 1000-2000 possible different ways are inherently completely different from complex bans that could happen billions of different ways or more. That difference in quantity is the one thing that matters here.
Perhaps, perhaps not. Once we have an official policy, we will be able to tell to what extent clear background reasoning is required, and whether or not it can be applied to things that are not broken, but merely uncompetitive - or to other things that are broken.
Or to the same thing. Again, the other main thing I have been advocating is that the ban on Swift Swim + Drizzle should be replaced with bans on Kingdra + Drizzle, Ludicolo + Drizzle, etc. All of the background reasoning that applied to the ban of Swift Swim + Drizzle can also be applied to those bans, so for this a clear definition is even more necessary.
Again, the key difference between banning Pokemon + ability and Pokemon + move is that the latter can be applied to anything uber, in any form. The former cannot. At present, if we were to allow complex bans of a specific ability on a specific Pokemon, but not any other sort of complex bans, the only current uber that would be affected is Blaziken. And we can make sure to keep complex bans involving abilities from causing complex bans involving moves by the means I described before - with an agreement from PR to do so. Of course, PR might not agree to do so. Either way, we must know their stance on this.
You wouldn't use Blaze Blaziken in OU; you would use it in UU or lower.
Draco Meteor isn't the only move that can hit as a result of Sand Veil. What about Ice Beam? You may not be irritated by the fact that it can make moves like Ice Beam miss, but that doesn't mean no one is.
Drought + Speed Boost is not a logical ban. There is not necessarily any connection between Drought and Speed Boost; there just happens to be for one Pokemon.
We don't have an exact definition for "uncompetitive". We have a partial definition, but not an exact one. To get an exact definition, we will need to ask PR and get a consensus, and we should probably do so.
Notice a pattern here?
this doesn't change the fact that not everyhting with speed boost is not broken.we cannot ban an ability if it's not broken on every pokemon that gets it...of course speed boost is an amazing ability but sharpedo and ninjask are nowhere near broken so...
If sunkern got it then maybe it wasn't broken.
But as of now every poke that gets it is and that is what we care...If in nhte future a poke that gets moody and isn't able to abuse it(magikaarp) i think that it will banned on him also 'cause of the sheer luck and uncompetitiveness that the ability brings!
I don't believe that the ability moody was broken in the usual meaning of the word...Moody teams whre not winning constantly enough to be broken they just created a boring situation in which if u didn't have a phazer u should w8 for 32 turns of pointless and skilless stalling...
I don't believe that a good team loses more than 30% of it's battles to good moody teams(which is of course more than enough if you think that no strategy was involved)...
But the fact that moody copletely takes skill out of the window and that it also increases evasion made it broken...
Fine then. I will drop the matter. I was cpncerned for Blaziken's use when an eventual UU tier was formed on smogon, but I don't think anybody else actually cares about UU.
The point is, I didn't see why we couldn't just treat Speed Boost blaziken like a different pokemon. The deoxys forms are all treated differently, yet they are all the same pokemon and species clause prevents you from using Deo-S and Deo-D on the same team. Same for Shaymin. If we could do that, then why not the same for the pokemon's abilities? But meh.
Yes, we should stop discussing Blaziken. It isnt going to come back until the 3rd version at least (if that).
Anyways, I think that the reason people are voting Deoxys-S is because unless you run MS Taunt or a Magic Coat/Bounce user it'll get at least 2 layers of hazards (possibly more) and it can set up Light Screen + Reflect and switch to a Set-up Sweeper. Also, many ppl were complaining about Deo-S and Shell Smash Gorebyss+Baton pass being broken a while back. So that could have something to do with it.
I dont think it's good enough to be broken though and i really dont understand why it was suddenly voted by a simple majority.
I mean most of the times it runs weak Non-STAB moves with it's 95 base offenses which as you mentioned isn't going to do much damage. It's good for late game clean-up at best. And even then, it's still weak to priority.
Yes, but what's the partial definition? That was my question a few pages ago and it's gone unanswered.
I tend to agree with this. I may be continuing a discussion that just isn't going to go anywhere, and I understand why Smogon is hesitant to opt for "complex" bans, but why are Pokemon+ability combos off the table completely? If the line were drawn at Pokemon+ability in Smogon's policy, then we wouldn't have to worry about a slippery slope of Pokemon+item+move or whatever.
As I see it, move pool, stats, and typing are integral to what a Pokemon is. But now, with two or sometimes even three abilities per Pokemon, I think there is an argument to be made that ability is not an integral part of a Pokemon. Thus, in cases like Blaziken wherein one ability pushes it to uber status, it may be preferable to ban the Pokemon+ability combo in the case that its other abilities are decidedly unbroken.
Two cents from someone who follows Smogon's tiers but doesn't usually participate in the process by which they are decided.
I agree that there should be an official poll on what types of complex bans are acceptable, and which are not. Otherwise we are always going to have to deal with differing opinions on the matter, all of which are valid at this point.
If Blaziken is broken, it should be banned. Allowing Blaze Blaziken just so it can see use in the lower tiers is cherry-picking Pokemon that "deserve" to be allowed in UU. We can't nerf Pokemon to keep them OU, just like we can't nerf Pokemon to allow them in UU.
Again I agree, we need to have official policy on what exactly Aldaron's proposal is a precedent for. Do we follow the intent of the ban alone, or can it extend to other bans? And if so, what complex bans should be permitted?
I have nothing against testing individual Swift Swimmers except that in order to avoid arbitrary bans we would have to test them all individually, which would take a very long time.
The day I see "Aldaron's Proposal: Revisited" in PR will be a happy one.
Something that is uncompetitive encourages players to rely on luck to win, as opposed to skill. This discourages players from playing to win, because if they are abusing luck there is no value to them winning, while if they are skillful they often lose to luck alone.
Ability bans are only allowed in "special cases," where the benefit of the ban outweighs the breach of official policy. Unless it is one of these special cases, Pokemon + Ability bans would just be nerfing your "favorites" to keep them playable in another tier.
Alright, I'm putting my two cents in about the whole Blaziken debate; to those who don't want to see a Blaziken comment, just scroll past. I'm not the biggest Pokemon Online player, I'm specific to breeding pokemon on cartridges. Now, I know from constantly looking at this site that, of course, Speed Boost Blaziken was broken as giving Latios a Fifth Move slot and a Second Item to hold.
I've been a competitive Blaziken user since the end of 3rd generation, when he was going from top of the rack to the bottom of the barrel with the release of Infernape. I understand that by the release of Speed Boost in the dream world brought Blaziken back from UU and that it has been a constant threat in 5th gen battles as it can take out atleast half of your team if your not prepared for it. But why ban the poke and not the ability?
Yes, I know there are alot of explainations for the ban, such as 'we can't ban a poke+ability, either a poke or an ability'. True, but this is an unique situation; this is the first Dream World Suspect. The poke has a lot of requirements outside of playing it on a simulator or SAVing it to an emulator, heck for normal cartridge players like myself, we have a 1/3 chance of getting a code to unlock it in the dream world, permitting that we RNG for the IVs or the nature. In my opinion, accessibility is neccessary for a good arguement for banning.
To end this soap box rant (hey I can recognize when I'm going on) you guys say you can only ban one or the other, yet you've banned SwiftSwim+Drizzle and the Moody Ability. So what has changed your mind, justifying the ban of Blaze-Blazikens like the one I have?
I've been a competitive Blaziken user since the end of 3rd generation, when he was going from top of the rack to the bottom of the barrel with the release of Infernape. I understand that by the release of Speed Boost in the dream world brought Blaziken back from UU and that it has been a constant threat in 5th gen battles as it can take out atleast half of your team if your not prepared for it. But why ban the poke and not the ability?
Yes, I know there are alot of explainations for the ban, such as 'we can't ban a poke+ability, either a poke or an ability'. True, but this is an unique situation; this is the first Dream World Suspect. The poke has a lot of requirements outside of playing it on a simulator or SAVing it to an emulator, heck for normal cartridge players like myself, we have a 1/3 chance of getting a code to unlock it in the dream world, permitting that we RNG for the IVs or the nature. In my opinion, accessibility is neccessary for a good arguement for banning.
To end this soap box rant (hey I can recognize when I'm going on) you guys say you can only ban one or the other, yet you've banned SwiftSwim+Drizzle and the Moody Ability. So what has changed your mind, justifying the ban of Blaze-Blazikens like the one I have?
Wouldn't that be preferable, though? Simply saying "the policy is so and so" doesn't explain why the policy shouldn't be to keep otherwise-acceptable Pokemon available for play via Pokemon+ability bans when applicable. Doesn't the benefit of keeping Blaze Blaziken (and perhaps future suspects who might become broken due to DW abilities) available for use outweigh the virtue of sticking to the current policy?
For the record, I find Blaziken pretty lame design-wise, and I was glad to see it go to ubers.
Accessibility isn't valid in a "if it's possible to obtain it, it is allowed" environment. To go down that route would mean we'd have to re-evaluate stuff like Deo-A (since outside of Gamestop, I don't think it's been released). You'd have to change the whole damn environment.
Anyway, the only option that wouldn't open a can of worms would be to ban Speed Boost, but then you nerf Yanmega down to one set, and would have to soft-ban Ninjask (afaik it's DW ability is unreleased). A Speed Boost ban would've been illogical.
Anyway, the only option that wouldn't open a can of worms would be to ban Speed Boost, but then you nerf Yanmega down to one set, and would have to soft-ban Ninjask (afaik it's DW ability is unreleased). A Speed Boost ban would've been illogical.
No. Because then we'd have to nerf all the Ubers to keep them OU. There is no difference between abilities, movepool, stats, and typing when it comes to bans; they are all factors which make up a pokemon. Either a factor must be broken on its own (moody) or it is the pokemon, the sum of the factors, that is broken, not the factor.
And to the person who brought out forms, they are treated differently, because bar actual species and pokedex number, they can differ in anyway imaginable from the originals. They have different abilities (Skymin), Stats (most of them), movepools (Rotom), typing (rotom and skymin). Long story short, any and all of the factors that differ among different pokemon differ among different forms.
I argue against that notion above. I don't believe an ability is inseparable from a Pokemon. In fact, there is a difference between movepool, stats, and typing compared to ability. All Pokemon of a species have its movepool, stats, and typing (save for alternate forms), but ability is highly variable.
i disagree . the question u should ask yourself when banning a poke is wwgfd . or what would gamefreak do. now yes blaziken is now a powerhouse but he can easily be nipped in the tail
outcome 1.
empoleon begins to swords dance .
opponent sends in blaziken
blaziken uses protect
empoleon sd again
blaziken gets speed boost
empoleon uses aqua jet.
if wearing focus band then hp is 1 thus cannot make a sub
if not wearing a focus item the bye bye blaziken
pretty much any aquajet swords dance user will tear into blaziken unless he has a focus sash or band. and the fact that most speed boost users use the life orb variant , blaziken is easily contained and tamed.
gastrodon is an almighty check to blaziken ,in a sense, as gastrodon avoids a thunder punch and can use a stab earthquake or surf or even muddy water to rain on blaziken's parade.
i think this whole blaziken ban is a little premature and needs to be taken back to the debate board.
thats just my perspective
outcome 1.
empoleon begins to swords dance .
opponent sends in blaziken
blaziken uses protect
empoleon sd again
blaziken gets speed boost
empoleon uses aqua jet.
if wearing focus band then hp is 1 thus cannot make a sub
if not wearing a focus item the bye bye blaziken
pretty much any aquajet swords dance user will tear into blaziken unless he has a focus sash or band. and the fact that most speed boost users use the life orb variant , blaziken is easily contained and tamed.
gastrodon is an almighty check to blaziken ,in a sense, as gastrodon avoids a thunder punch and can use a stab earthquake or surf or even muddy water to rain on blaziken's parade.
i think this whole blaziken ban is a little premature and needs to be taken back to the debate board.
thats just my perspective
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