In-Game Tier List Discussion

[sax king]

The thing is that unless a poke has a good movepool, it's generally in a low tier. Accelgor really only has Bug Buzz, Giga Drain, Focus Blast, and Sludge Bomb, making it mid-tier at best. Same applies to Cofagrigus. It may be immortal, but it can only use Shadow Ball and Psychic before the Elite Four.

Anyway, here's what I've used:

I still use it because I never box my starters, but it's not good. Leaf Blade and Giga Drain are useful, but it has absolutely no coverage. It learns Strength and Dragon Tail, and that's about it. I don't have time to use moves like Coil and Growth in-game, so it really doesn't matter that it learns them. Still, it's bulky and powerful, so Mid-Tier

I got him in the beginning of the game, and he's pretty cool. Bulky as shit, and decently stong. Great movepool, even though Storm Throw has low PP. Even though this guy is cool, I wish I chose Conkeldurr, as it's pretty much the same poke with a bit more attack and access to Drain Punch. Still, it's a solid High-Tier

I like this guy for his balance. Decent power, decent bulk, and decent speed. Also, not to mention the fact that it's raining for a good part of the game. It's disappointing that he can't learn Earth Power without some fancy breeding, and that Earthquake is only available post-game. It's also very annoying that he can't learn Dive, Waterfall, or Ice Beam, but his Drain Punch makes up for that. High-Tier, maybe Mid

Everyone loves Sigilyph. Seriously, it's amazing. Fantastic movepool, great power, great bulk, great speed. What's not to love? Yeah, I spent about 30 minutes looking for one until I found an Adamant one, and then spent about another 15 minutes looking for another one, but it was so worth it. High-Tier, without a doubt.

Awesome looking, awesome poke. I didn't think Joltik was that weak, especially against the Flying gym. He leveled up quickly and pulverized with Thunder. The movepool is kind of small, but Thunder/Charge Beam/Signal Beam/Sucker Punch is all that you need. High-Tier, but the limited movepool might make some say Mid

I got it early on because I thought I would need it. Its attacks were weak, and it leveled pretty slowly. I didn't need it at all, but I held on to it for a long time. Generally, its defenses were ridiculously low, its attacks weren't powerful enough, and it was just a waste of a team slot. Low-Tier, believe it or not.

Found this guy in Wellspring Cave. HE'S SO GOOD! He leveled up super quickly, soon evolved and learned Earthquake and Rock Slide, making him the ultimate killer. He's actually not that fast outside of a Sandstorm, and mine had really low defense IVs, but he was a monster despite his frailty. He was so good that I didn't think it was that fun to use him. I dropped him in Iccirus city because he was boring to use. High-Tier

I didn't keep him for that long, but he was pretty good. He was powerful, learned Scald quickly, and OHKO'd pretty much everything. I thought it was kind of hard to level him up early on in the game because of pinwheel forest, but he was a beast. I got rid of him only because I though Seismitoad was cooler. High-tier

I didn't really like Cofagrigus. He didn't learn many moves, and he wasn't that powerful. He never died, but killing stuff was a pain, and basic level grinding was hard to do. I quickly dropped him. More useful competitively. Low-tier

I thought this thing was the coolest thing ever, so I used it for a bit. It doesn't learn any good STAB for a while, can't really use Sucker Punch, appears very late in the game, and generally wasn't as cool as I had hoped. Low-tier

Not as terrible as I had thought. He learned powerful STAB pretty early, had nice attack and decent speed and has access to HMs that I needed. He appears all the time in the Winter, which is now, so it's not hard to find him. Nice power, nice speed, nice movepool. High-tier, but if you can't change the clock and if you're not in a winter month, Mid-tier.

 

[0verl0rd14]

inb4 Colonel M yells at you for posting your team

 

[Sajak]

inb4 Colonel M yells at you for posting your team

That's clearly more than 6 Pokemon. :P He's just giving analyses for several different Pokemon. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Vladimir]

Maractus is slow, frail, and not powerful enough to justify being that slow and frail. If you rely on Acupressure with 75/67/67 defenses and 5 weaknesses to win your gym and E4 battles, you're in for a very inefficient playthrough. It's impossible to beat Elesa with it, when Aerial Ace is supereffective, and Giga Drain not very effective on the Emolgas.

And don't hate that much on Cofagrigus, gyus. At least if you catch one the second time you visit the Relic Castle (b4 the 8th gym), you can use it to fully counter Marshall and Ghetsis's Bouffalant.

 

[The Cicada]

I still support booting Leavanny up to the top. I love that thing, and gave my reasons before =/

 

[breh]

I still support booting Leavanny up to the top. I love that thing, and gave my reasons before =/

I still think nobody understands you can evolve it really easily by potion spamming.... And that's why it's lower than it should be.

 

[Kikuichimonji]

I still think nobody understands you can evolve it really easily by potion spamming.... And that's why it's lower than it should be.

By potion spamming, do you mean the trick that people used to get Bulbasaur in yellow version (where you can repeatedly use a potion on a Pokemon at full health and it will still raise happiness even though the item is not used up)?

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Tynamo should be mid, its a fantastic pokemon, yes its late in the game but its just too good to be low, and 5th gym isn't that late to be honest.

 

[Sajak]

By potion spamming, do you mean the trick that people used to get Bulbasaur in yellow version (where you can repeatedly use a potion on a Pokemon at full health and it will still raise happiness even though the item is not used up)?

You can't use potions at full health, but you can still use a potion on any amount of damage and get happiness that way.

 

[The Cicada]

Getting max happiness is easy..... it's not nay harder than getting your starter to lvl 36 to evolve. Just give it a massage, heal it whenever it gets low on health, have it kill stuff, and love it with all your heart, like me. Or just take 256 steps with it and lvl it up.

 

[R_N]

Getting max happiness is easy..... it's not nay harder than getting your starter to lvl 36 to evolve. Just give it a massage, heal it whenever it gets low on health, have it kill stuff, and love it with all your heart, like me. Or just take 256 steps with it and lvl it up.

Not even need to level it up, from what I heard. If it reaches max happiness while walking it will evolve right then and there.

 

[The Cicada]

Not even need to level it up, from what I heard. If it reaches max happiness while walking it will evolve right then and there.

Wow, thats even better.


So, technically, it is safe to say it evolves from Swadloon, into a pokemon with 103 base attack pretty damn early.......... (lowest evo level being 20/21 from my little bit of knowledge).


Sounds top tier to me.

 

[TheSuperCacturne]

Well, after having another look at the list, I have a few qualms which I feel should be addressed:
Elgyem
Terrakion
Thundurus
Maractus
Pidove

Elgyem - Why is this thing in Mid? It doesn't come until before the 6th gym, is slow as fuck, evolves late, has a shitty level up movepool, can't do donkey dick to anything except maybe Marshall, and is thoroughly outclassed by earlier Psychic types (Sigilyph, Gothita, Solosis and even Woobat are better choices). Before anybody rambles on about how it has good TM choices, Thunderbolt requires Surf and a detour, Shadow Ball can't be gotten until after Gym #7 and Energy Ball is postgame. Should be in Low.

Terrakion - Although I can definately see where people are coming from putting it in Mid, it comes too late to really be considered part of your team (I mean, midway into Victory Road, right before the League? REALLY?!) AND you need to catch Cobalion to access it in the first place. It also is difficult to catch and probably requires a bit of training before catching up in levels with you.

Thundurus - I've already talked about this guy, so I'll make this quick. Roamer, comes before/after the 8th gym at the earliest, has poor initial moves, is a roamer. Why is this in Mid and Tornadus in Low again? (Both should be in Low)

Maractus - I honestly feel people are underestimating this dude. He may not be stellar, but I feel he's good enough to be propelled up a tier. He comes just before Gym #4 and gets brilliant STABs resonably early (Needle Arm at level 22 and Giga Drain at level 26) to come off its excellent (at that point) Attack and Special Attack stats. It's also easy to train considering the vast amount of Sandile around the Desert and it doesn't falter too much thanks to getting a boosting move (albeit an unreliable one) in Acupressure. Its biggest problem is its poor movepool, but it's far from being as bad as say, Purrloin or Shelmet.

Pidove - Many people have argued this guy for Mid and I'm another in the long line. As long as you get a Super Luck one, you can get the brilliant Scopecrit combo early on to compensate for your poor Special Attack, and by the time you obtain Return and teach it Work Up, you'll be set pretty much for the whole of the game. It learning Fly is the icing on the cake as well, ensuring it doesn't lose its place later on. Shamefully it can't really make it past Steel and Rock types, but you have a team for coping against that.

I'm hoping you guys will consider the points I made here, since I really feel that they're valid ones.

Also, I fully support Sewaddle moving up, little omnombug is just too awesome...

Bumpbumpabump. Nobody seemed to take any attention to my post :(

 

[Banryu]

I'd like to raise the question of who (besides you) is bothering with getting a female Karrablast, raising a male Venipede into a Scolipede, breeding to get Megahorn onto the offspring, and then raising that offspring the 35-or-so levels that it needs to catch up with the team.

Judging by people's responses since this post.... at least a couple people. :L
Right, I had a staggering wall of text here, but I'll just sum this up with bullets instead:

- Escavalier/Accelgor need to be ranked separately from their prevos like Conkeldurr, first. Barring the obtainability factor....
- X-Scissor is sufficient if you don't breed for Megahorn (2HKOs VS OHKOs LOL)
- fantastic resistances for any point in the game between Shelmet being available and the 8th Gym
- slowness justifiable by bulk and power (slap a Shell Bell on that sucker and you're set)
- above 2 points = very easy to play catchup with levels
- gets most of what it needs via levelup or relatively-early TMs
- needs to be high Mid-tier at least, period

 

[spweasel]

Not even need to level it up, from what I heard. If it reaches max happiness while walking it will evolve right then and there.

I think you still need to level it up. My searching can't come up with anything saying otherwise, and that's a pretty significant change from Gen 2-4 if it did change. I know my Leavanny didn't evolve until level up, and I ran him all over the place picking up stuff I missed the first go-around.

Leavanny is good, but he is weak to almost everything (most notably Flying), and has unexciting defenses, fairly mediocre STABs until level 36, and pretty lame coverage (especially since Aerial Ace and Shadow Claw aren't available until fairly late). He's also hard to evolve via Exp. Share, meaning it requires more attention than many other Pokemon, especially if picked up a little later on.

Leavanny can do basically nothing against Flying, Fire, Steel, and Poison types, hitting them for neutral, non-STAB damage at best while taking massive damage (except from Steel) in return.

He isn't bad, but he isn't top-tier material. High-mid if we get more tiers, but not high.

Terrakion - Although I can definately see where people are coming from putting it in Mid, it comes too late to really be considered part of your team (I mean, midway into Victory Road, right before the League? REALLY?!) AND you need to catch Cobalion to access it in the first place. It also is difficult to catch and probably requires a bit of training before catching up in levels with you.

Whether or not it is "part of your team" or not shouldn't make a big difference for tiering. A great Pokemon available from the start that loses steam can be very highly tiered (see Lilipup, though he's more upper-mid than high, really), so why can't a great Pokemon caught late? I'm not saying that Terrakion is necessarily a great teammate, since I've never used him, but if he is really good and you don't mind training him, I don't see why mid-tier isn't appropriate.

Maractus - Its biggest problem is its poor movepool

I think most people are turned off by the low speed, weak defenses, and bad typing. And while you can grind Sandiles, you can't to it forever, and you always have a chance to bump into a Darumaka (who eats Maractus for breakfast). He might be Lower-Mid, but with the current 3-tier system I think Low is appropriate.

- Escavalier/Accelgor need to be ranked separately from their prevos like Conkeldurr, first. Barring the obtainability factor....

Would anybody need clarification that unevolved Karrablast is low tier? I see no advantage in even listing the unevolved forms.

- needs to be high Mid-tier at least, period

I'll concede Mid-tier, but it's available quite late, has fairly bad coverage, and is slow as slow gets. Without Megahorn, he doesn't get a good STAB until level 37 or Route 7, which makes leveling him up to that point fairly obnoxious.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Whether or not it is "part of your team" or not shouldn't make a big difference for tiering. A great Pokemon available from the start that loses steam can be very highly tiered (see Lilipup, though he's more upper-mid than high, really), so why can't a great Pokemon caught late? I'm not saying that Terrakion is necessarily a great teammate, since I've never used him, but if he is really good and you don't mind training him, I don't see why mid-tier isn't appropriate.

Terrakion comes really late, and considering you have to catch Cobalion to get him, he seems a bit obsolete, TBH.

I think most people are turned off by the low speed, weak defenses, and bad typing. And while you can grind Sandiles, you can't to it forever, and you always have a chance to bump into a Darumaka (who eats Maractus for breakfast). He might be Lower-Mid, but with the current 3-tier system I think Low is appropriate.

Would anybody need clarification that unevolved Karrablast is low tier? I see no advantage in even listing the unevolved forms.

Escavalier and Accelgor work completely differently from Karrablast and Shelmet. Listing the unevolved forms is there for completeness' sake, just as why Boldore and Gurrdurr are on that list, because there might be players who don't have access to trading.

I'll concede Mid-tier, but it's available quite late, has fairly bad coverage, and is slow as slow gets. Without Megahorn, he doesn't get a good STAB until level 37 or Route 7, which makes leveling him up to that point fairly obnoxious.
Actually, breeding reduces efficiency, not really the main point of a tier list, tbh. Fuck off Megahorn Karrablast. Plus if you are going through all this trouble, you can just stop at Megahorn Scolipede.

 

[spweasel]

Terrakion comes really late, and considering you have to catch Cobalion to get him, he seems a bit obsolete, TBH.

Hence the "if he's really good". I haven't even really looked at him, so I can't say. I was just pointing out that merely being that close to the end and needing a little leveling shouldn't automatically banish a Pokemon to bottom tier.

Escavalier and Accelgor work completely differently from Karrablast and Shelmet. Listing the unevolved forms is there for completeness' sake, just as why Boldore and Gurrdurr are on that list, because there might be players who don't have access to trading.

There's one key difference between the two sets of trade-breeders, though - trying to use Boldore/Gurdurr is fine (they aren't great later on, but they aren't that bad when they first evolve), but using Karrablast/Shelmet when you know they won't evolve is moderately insane. They can be listed for completion's sake, but there are still enough missing entries I don't think it's necessary yet.

Actually, breeding reduces efficiency, not really the main point of a tier list, tbh. Fuck off Megahorn Karrablast. Plus if you are going through all this trouble, you can just stop at Megahorn Scolipede.

I never said you should breed Megahorn, I was just saying that he was underwhelming without it. Since breeding Megahorn is such a pain, it means that he's either too much of a hassle for High Tier or not powerful enough soon enough.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

There's one key difference between the two sets of trade-breeders, though - trying to use Boldore/Gurdurr is fine (they aren't great later on, but they aren't that bad when they first evolve), but using Karrablast/Shelmet when you know they won't evolve is moderately insane. They can be listed for completion's sake, but there are still enough missing entries I don't think it's necessary yet.

There could be some crazy people who want to use Shelmet. Don't quote me on this, but there could be some crazy people who want to use that.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

People do crazy things people, I tried once to get a Dragonite, in-game for pokemon blue. A lot of grinding, but possible, and deadly.

 

[Vladimir]

You need to use a pokemon b4 you argue about its tiering. A lot of people tend to forget that minor detail. I personally threw Terrakion at the E4 at lvl 43 in my last playthrough (only two Trainer fights brought me up a lvl after i caught it), without any grinding whatsoever, and it performed much better than any other fighting-type I'd used previously (even higher-levelled ones). Firstly, it's the only Fighting-type in the game that can actually OHKO Ghetsis's Bouffalant, which is *amazing*, 'coz this thing can be a huge pain. Secondly, it's one of the few that both outspeed and KO his Hydreigon. To put it in perspective, Terrakion sweeps through 4 of N's guys (Archeops, Vanilluxe, Zoroark, Klingklang), and 3 of Ghetsis's (Bisharp, Bouffalant, Hydreigon). Cobalion only 2HKOs some of the aforementioned targets, meaning he will have to take some damage in the proccess. So yeah, Terrakion is more efficient in the E4 than any other fighting-type... and you request that he's put to low tier?

In my last playthrough I also used Joltik, and i was negatively surprised. This thing is horrible until it evolves, so why is it high tier? It needs a ton of babying to be effective, and its first stage is absolutely pathetic, just like Litwick. It should be at mid. It cannot "train" at the Flying gym either, because it's very slow and only neutral to flying, being 2HKOed by anything in there due to its lackluster defenses, while being notoriously weak to even 4HKO back >_> After it evolves it's good, but still, not too good, only with base 97 sp.atk. Thunder isn't till the 7th gym either. Seriously, it should be moved down a tier.

 

[Green Thunder]

Emolga: upper mid its fast has a movepool that fits its needs and isnt as frail as you would think.

Leavanny: high tier fantasic, if you think that happiness evolutions are a reason to rank a pokemon lower you should be ashamed. even when it was a swadaloon it was really powerful, rarely faints has two decently powered stabs early on and two powereful ones later. a great mon who has never let me down.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

In my last playthrough I also used Joltik, and i was negatively surprised. This thing is horrible until it evolves, so why is it high tier? It needs a ton of babying to be effective, and its first stage is absolutely pathetic, just like Litwick. It should be at mid. It cannot "train" at the Flying gym either, because it's very slow and only neutral to flying, being 2HKOed by anything in there due to its lackluster defenses, while being notoriously weak to even 4HKO back >_> After it evolves it's good, but still, not too good, only with base 97 sp.atk. Thunder isn't till the 7th gym either. Seriously, it should be moved down a tier.

I only didn't use Joltik because it KO'd a wild Unfezant while grinding. >_>

And for the 6th gym I decided to be crazy and brought 3 Zebstrikas and 3 Joltiks, all equipped with Volt Switch. Notably though, Electro Ball doesn't come until later, and you really need Electroweb in order to do something. Until then, have fun with just lolChargeBeem.

Sorry dude, Zebstrika is way better for electric. Has actually good type coverage (Fire/Electric), comes way earlier, and actually owns Elesa like no other(and Joltik doesn't even exist then).

Honestly, if I wanted something from Chargestone I'd go with Ferroseed. :/

 

[The Cicada]

I think you still need to level it up. My searching can't come up with anything saying otherwise, and that's a pretty significant change from Gen 2-4 if it did change. I know my Leavanny didn't evolve until level up, and I ran him all over the place picking up stuff I missed the first go-around.

Leavanny is good, but he is weak to almost everything (most notably Flying), and has unexciting defenses, fairly mediocre STABs until level 36, and pretty lame coverage (especially since Aerial Ace and Shadow Claw aren't available until fairly late). He's also hard to evolve via Exp. Share, meaning it requires more attention than many other Pokemon, especially if picked up a little later on.

Leavanny can do basically nothing against Flying, Fire, Steel, and Poison types, hitting them for neutral, non-STAB damage at best while taking massive damage (except from Steel) in return.

Lol. Not like you are soloing the game with Leavanny. You got other team members to deal with those types. Besides, how many posion and steel types do you see in game? And btw, as soon as you get the TM for Return, teach leavanny it. It has more power than Bug Bite and Razor Leaf, so saying it gots no good moves till lvl 36 is a lie.



Also, whats with the sudden hate on Joltik, guys? that thing is awesome. There was very few that survived its Thunder/Signal Beam, and Charge Beam is just awesome for SpA raising. Sure it's weak before evolution, but it's not like it's staying a Joltik forever lol.

 

[spweasel]

Lol. Not like you are soloing the game with Leavanny. You got other team members to deal with those types.

There are plenty of Pokemon who rarely need to switch, either due to their defenses or their sheer power. If you look at the High-Tier list, you'll notice that the only one who has a 4x weakness at all is Tympole, who's going to drop a tier. Moreover, most of them have some combination of few weaknesses, good bulk, or amazing offense.

Besides, how many posion and steel types do you see in game?

Having to seriously consider switching because some random trainer throws out Venipede, Trubbish, or Foongus is pretty shameful.

And btw, as soon as you get the TM for Return, teach leavanny it.

If having a non-STAB Return and 103 Attack (or lol 63 before it evolves) was enough to make a 'mon High-tier, the tier lists would be pretty full.

It has more power than Bug Bite and Razor Leaf, so saying it gots no good moves till lvl 36 is a lie.

I said it gets no good STABs. Which is absolutely true. Return is fine for neutral coverage, but as your hardest hitting attack it's disappointing unless STABed. Before becoming Leavanny, you have a Pokemon that struggles to be average. Until 36, you have a Pokemon that's outdamaged by Watchog. After 36, you have a somewhat strong and fast Pokemon, but with poor/redundant coverage, weak defenses, and very little utility. He's not a bad Pokemon by a long shot, but he's not High-Tier worthy.

 

[breh]

Leavanny rapes 3/4 of the elite four, OHKOes Hydreigon (if it outspeeds), learns Swords Dance right around the Elite Four, and really has nice coverage overall. Bug/Grass is total shit competitively but it's great for ingame; Shadow Claw only complements that.

While you wait for better STABs, recall that evolving Leavanny is really not very difficult. So no, it is not outdamaged by Watchog when you realize that it has base 103 attack (I got mine to evolve at around level 23-25, no grinding, just loooooots of potions).