Use Mamoswine! Seriously, it's a great Thundurus check
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish
- Thread starter reachzero
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Use Mamoswine! Seriously, it's a great Thundurus check
I think your pretty much missed the entire point of his post, which I think everyone is aware of, but no one really wants to do anything about:
Even for gen 5, with an expected more reliance on weather, these teams are far too dominating. I once had a 12 game binge against 12 diffrent weather teams, and nearly all of them identical ((for sand, it was the same TTar, garchomp, excadril/landlos, +bulky water or Ferrathorn + free space, usually defense bulky). For rain, politoed + the 2 genies, + ferrathorn + 2 free spots).
I am pretty sure if something doesn't change, I will be spending all available time in UU. I could now go on a rant about how releasing all of the gen 4 ubers at once was a bad idea, but that's a story for another time...
Even for gen 5, with an expected more reliance on weather, these teams are far too dominating. I once had a 12 game binge against 12 diffrent weather teams, and nearly all of them identical ((for sand, it was the same TTar, garchomp, excadril/landlos, +bulky water or Ferrathorn + free space, usually defense bulky). For rain, politoed + the 2 genies, + ferrathorn + 2 free spots).
I am pretty sure if something doesn't change, I will be spending all available time in UU. I could now go on a rant about how releasing all of the gen 4 ubers at once was a bad idea, but that's a story for another time...
I once used Choice Scarf Cloud Nine Golduck (Hypnosis/Surf/Ice Beam/Psychic, and I could probably have chosen better for that last one) on one of my teams. It dominated sand teams, did good damage to Thundurus and Tornadus, and did reasonably well as a check to rain. So, don't say there's no legit way of stopping both. Maybe not in one pokemon, but there are plenty of good pokemon out there that can stop one or the other while not being helpless against the other. Also, why not use a rain and sand team? Block one weather with the other and neither weather has a good chance against the other. Also, a good Rain team won't need to see who can crit first against another Rain team.
Yes, the new metagame was dreadful, but you can't exactly say it was any better at any point during Gen 5.
Round 1: There was insane stuff like Scarf Skymin obliterateing everything, and Darkrai, with the buffed Sleep.
Round 2: Manaphy, Swift Swim
Round 3: Blaziken wasn't exactly fun, he forced every team to run something like Azumarill.
Round 4, although it's not offically started, seems repetive and dreadful, because SAND AND RAIN ARE BROKEN. It's just that the other completely broken things are gone, and there's not a lot holding it back at all anymore.
Everything that was banned was broken, and able to sweep teams by themselves, or with minimal support [Drizzle], with VERY few checks, if any at all. Doing an unbanning, like some people are suggesting [Probobly due to Blaziken], will just put us back at the horrible, nigh-unplayable Metagame we started with, with Skymin killing everything again.
Honestly, I will be shocked if by the end of Round 4, Rain and Sand, and probobly Sun, remain. At the very least, by the end of Round 4, well have UU, and 90% of players will just go there, sick of weather wars. I know I'm gonna play UU when it's out.
Round 1: There was insane stuff like Scarf Skymin obliterateing everything, and Darkrai, with the buffed Sleep.
Round 2: Manaphy, Swift Swim
Round 3: Blaziken wasn't exactly fun, he forced every team to run something like Azumarill.
Round 4, although it's not offically started, seems repetive and dreadful, because SAND AND RAIN ARE BROKEN. It's just that the other completely broken things are gone, and there's not a lot holding it back at all anymore.
Everything that was banned was broken, and able to sweep teams by themselves, or with minimal support [Drizzle], with VERY few checks, if any at all. Doing an unbanning, like some people are suggesting [Probobly due to Blaziken], will just put us back at the horrible, nigh-unplayable Metagame we started with, with Skymin killing everything again.
Honestly, I will be shocked if by the end of Round 4, Rain and Sand, and probobly Sun, remain. At the very least, by the end of Round 4, well have UU, and 90% of players will just go there, sick of weather wars. I know I'm gonna play UU when it's out.
blaziken can easily be dealt with two ways.
1. swords dance , 3 attacks blaziken gets mauled by something with earthquake +priority move , the first poke i think of is infernape with mach punch or vaccum wave. lucario also fits the bill with earthquake +priority extreme speed. dragonite can hit it with sky drop the turn it sets up swords dance then finish it with extreme speed , dragonite gets this done because it resists both stab moves & has bulk with roost access via gen. 4 .
2. the swords dance + protect blaziken gets walled all day by flash fire chandelure as it nullifies both blaziken 's stab moves & lets be honest sd+protect is almost always accompanied by hjk and blaze kick or flare blitz.
check mate gentleman
1. swords dance , 3 attacks blaziken gets mauled by something with earthquake +priority move , the first poke i think of is infernape with mach punch or vaccum wave. lucario also fits the bill with earthquake +priority extreme speed. dragonite can hit it with sky drop the turn it sets up swords dance then finish it with extreme speed , dragonite gets this done because it resists both stab moves & has bulk with roost access via gen. 4 .
2. the swords dance + protect blaziken gets walled all day by flash fire chandelure as it nullifies both blaziken 's stab moves & lets be honest sd+protect is almost always accompanied by hjk and blaze kick or flare blitz.
check mate gentleman
Hardly.
Infernape? Lucario? Hello HJK.
Dragonite? Hello Stone Edge.
Blaziken won't be trying to set up on them, so they'll be dead immediately.
Chandelure? Hello Ttar, and hello pursuit.
And EQ Lucario/Infernape? LOL
1. You will have to switch your pokemon in on Blaziken, since it will never come in on something that can kill it. Meaning everything you mentioned fails.
2. If you are running Flash Fire Chandelure, blaziken will just switch out and wreak havoc later.
EDIT: ninja'd ._.
2. If you are running Flash Fire Chandelure, blaziken will just switch out and wreak havoc later.
EDIT: ninja'd ._.
Sand is just as passive this gen as it was last gen. The only big fucker of the lot that needs to be dealt with at this point in time is Garchomp. Excadrill is pretty decidedly not broken and no one's out for Landlos now that its Sand Force was nerfed a bit. Or at the very least, Garchomp took its spot on most teams.
If this were chess you'd be playing the worst game ever. Also, why are you still on this. Nobody really cares anymore. If you want to get Blaziken out of uber come up with a good arguement and mabye people will listen. Until then we'll be taking your post down piece by piece.
1. The only pokemon that can successfully use earthquake against Blaziken, among your choices, is Infernape. Everything else is completely outspeed. Scarf infernape would outspeed at +1 but even then it's only a check because there's no way it's gonna keep taking HJKs to the face like that.
If your gonna make an assumption about a pokemon you should probably check it out first. In this case, lucario doesn't use earthquake. Like ever. What pokemon could it take out with earthquake that it couldn't take out with all of it's other moves. Blaziken? So what you want us to use a move on Lucario it doesn't ever use just to take out one pokemon. That's overcentralization in it's finest. Let's go with something even more obvious. Lucario cannot ko with extremespeed or even 2hko for that matter. Meanwhile both of Blaziken's stab ohko Lucario on the spot.
You assume that Dragonite will already be in when Blaziken comes but what person in their right mind would switch a Blaziken into a dragonite? Also you continue to make assumptions about a pokemon when you really should check them out before you make an argument. No Dragonite uses Sky Drop. I should know it's my favorite and I check it out when I come on here. No dragonite uses sky drop. Also you seem to forget that Blaziken will have a 3rd move which would likely be Stone Edge.
2. On the chandelure thing, it's a check. While you are correct in assuming it would wall the SD protect set, you neglected to think that the 3 attacks + SD you tried so hard to mitigate, can destroy any chandelure with Stone Edge/Shadow Claw.
Sorry if I should condesending, I just woke up to an annoying yappy dog. :P
ok the let me sift through this
1. if blaziken cant switch in on something then its not a big threat heres a scenario match begins i lead with empoleon. opponent switches to blaziken so it doesnt receive sr damage. i use sr. next turn begins empoleon uses aqua jet (Blaziken wouldn't be ev'd in def. and it's base def. is nothing to write home about ) bye bye birdie. any priority moves destroy blaziken. and most CIVIL MINDED teams have multiple priority moves.
2.again blaziken has too many counters too be uber.
breloom sleep powder & yes blaziken would be switched in on it whimsicott can taunt it or any other crippling status moves it can dish out.
kindra
slowbro ive heard about him
chandelure .
infernape , dragonite , scarf gengar & alakazam, anything with a swords dance + aqua jet set up (since ken wont switch into water types.) i can go on & on with counters & strategy to deal with ken. any with weather & sr running rough shot i see focus bands being useless so a aqua jet will do.
1. if blaziken cant switch in on something then its not a big threat heres a scenario match begins i lead with empoleon. opponent switches to blaziken so it doesnt receive sr damage. i use sr. next turn begins empoleon uses aqua jet (Blaziken wouldn't be ev'd in def. and it's base def. is nothing to write home about ) bye bye birdie. any priority moves destroy blaziken. and most CIVIL MINDED teams have multiple priority moves.
2.again blaziken has too many counters too be uber.
breloom sleep powder & yes blaziken would be switched in on it whimsicott can taunt it or any other crippling status moves it can dish out.
kindra
slowbro ive heard about him
chandelure .
infernape , dragonite , scarf gengar & alakazam, anything with a swords dance + aqua jet set up (since ken wont switch into water types.) i can go on & on with counters & strategy to deal with ken. any with weather & sr running rough shot i see focus bands being useless so a aqua jet will do.
1. Lead Empoleon's Aqua Jet : 187 Atk vs 196 Def & 301 HP (40 Base Power): 84 - 102 (27.91% - 33.89%). That isn't even a guaranteed 3HKO with SR. And even then, who would switch in Blaziken on Empoleon? If I brought Blaziken on anything, it'd be Scizor or Ferrothorn.
2. Slowbro is LITERALLY the only thing that can switch into Blaziken and avoid being OHKOed. BulkyMence/Gyara die to SE, and Chandelure/Jellicent can't take a Shadow Claw. And 80/70/70 defenses aren't exactly glass. It has enough bulk to withstand non-Aqua Jet priority (well as soon as Techniloom comes out that might change).
1: Wrong.
CB Azumarill only just OHKO's Blaziken in normal weather, and fails to do so in Sun. There is no way that Blaziken is going to be OHKO'ed my Emploeon's Aqua Jet.
Most Emploeon are not EV'ed in defense, in fact, be lucky I'm not classing it as a -Attack nature too, but I'm assumeing if you're using Aqua Jet, you're not using Timid or Modest:
Blaziken is also assumed to be 0/0, neutral nature:
33.8% ~ 37.2%
Nowhere near a OHKO, in fact, not even a 2HKO. Even WITH rocks.
2: Too many counters to be Uber?
Definition of a Counter: A pokemon which can switch in and stop another pokemon, without fear; example: Latias on Infernape, or Rotom-H in 4th Gen on Scizor.
Breloom: LOLNO
Whimsiscott: Cannot switch in
Slowbro: Fears Shadow Claw, dislikes Stone Edge, Persuit Bait dosen't help much
Chandlure: Stone Edge. Shadow Claw
Infernape: Anything
Dragonite: Shadow Claw/Stone Edge
I have no clue what Dance + Aqua Jet setup is. I just hope you're not suggesting SD Emploeon... which, by the way, STILL FAILS TO OHKO.
Number of pokemon that can switch in safe, without fear: 0
Counters don't involve whatever they are countering switching in on them either. That's just stupid. You don't switch Rayquaza in on Mamoswine. Is Rayquaza OU now?
Until your posts don't take five minuites for me to understand, and you actually learn what a counter is, please, don't post these horrible, nonsence arguments again. Blaziken has no counters, and very few checks, which are decimated if Blaziken is running a coverage move [And by Tyranitar/Scizor too!]
I think I speak for alot of people when I say
Shut Up Oblivious Blaze Noob! Listen to people that have say instead of ranting about how Blaze isn't Broken!
You're just bitter because Blaze was the ONLY reason you won battles or you never battled and you don't know what you're thinking about.
Edit: Double Ninja'd
Unban a bunch of things? Well that's a first.
I'd be interested in hearing what your thoughts are on what needs to come down.
u guys act like blaziken has decent-above average defense. empoleon , samurrot, and anything else with STAB aqua jet laughs in SB blazikens face. floatzel destroys him. blaziken may be OU but by no means uber. and fyi whimsicott can switch in when blaziken ko's a team mate and cripple it with status. and if your dnite doesn't use skydrop doesn't mean my doesn't . its a useful stab move. you also act like blaziken can have all it's moves in one set. blaziken will most likely run sd, hjk, protect, ????. so a good prediction will leave blaziken ko'd
ok dude that was your 10th useless post...congratulations!!!
if you think that blaziken is ou then you can go and play with yourself an ou battle with blaziken....
but fortunately most people can understand some things unlike you and accept that blaziken is uber now...!
don't bring this point up again...if you want to do something useless there are better places to do so...
if you think that blaziken is ou then you can go and play with yourself an ou battle with blaziken....
but fortunately most people can understand some things unlike you and accept that blaziken is uber now...!
don't bring this point up again...if you want to do something useless there are better places to do so...
![Requiem[9]](/forums/data/avatars/m/38/38887.jpg?1514734517){kind=avatar}
Like in any new metagame, creativity really pays dividends. I'm pretty sure Rain and Sand aren't broken in this metagame any more than they were in the last: the reason they're so common is that straight weather is the easiest, most mindless way to get a good team. Not many people can get to the top of the ladder with a pure weather team and even those players -- who don't number more than 10 or 20 -- are going to have a harder time, because unconventional teams are more prepared for conventional teams than vice versa. I'm confident that once the period starts, there are going to be some really creative ideas; even now, there's a team with Sigilyph at number two.
I sincerely hope we can reevaluate some things in the next suspect test. I don't think I really need to do a full-grind post here because most posts pretty much cover what I have to say about Blaze and the like.
Go with the flow that if an entire (or majority of a) team is geared to protect itself from specific threats, it points towards real centralization and it neuters itself in many cases.
Go with the flow that if an entire (or majority of a) team is geared to protect itself from specific threats, it points towards real centralization and it neuters itself in many cases.
This seems to be a major problem; if weather is seriously dominating the metagame so badly that you can go more than ten matches without seeing a non-weather team, shouldn't something be done? But you can't just say "no more perma-weather", because nobody wanted to get rid of Rain in the second round for the sake of non-swiftswim spamming rain teams to have a chance.
So...do we do nothing about weather and just sorta accept it as part of advanced play like Stealth Rock, or what? People will be out for blood if anything happens to Tyranitar even if Lati@s, Deoxys-S, and the other things it specializes in killing get banned again...
Not to mention I get the feeling Garchomp's going to go right back to trolling every other dragon in the game if/when Lati@s are banned.
I have a question. What qualifies something as a "weather team"? Does it just have to have a weathersetter, or does it need to have multiple specific abusers? I usually run what I call light weather teams, which run a weathersetter to disrupt enemy weather and maybe a single abuser. The setter is often Specs Ninetales or a Tyranitar variant: good, solid Pokemon that fend for themselves. The weather is never the core of my play. Do those count as "weather teams"?
The problem is, (and I am not saying every voter is), but weather won't be banned for two reasons:
1). Because players like their pet teams. It is a greedy principle, but since I am willing to bet bare minimum, that 80% of qualified voters got their with weather teams, they won't ban weather.
2). The fear of a chain-reaction. When rain was nerfed, sun and sand usage jumped up a lot. If for instance, rain would get banned, hypothetically, sun and sand would jump up in use to incredibly heights.
I am actually trying to do well with a nonweather team, that ended up getting better, just by running abomasnow. I had a decent chance against sand and certain rain teams before aboma, but being unable to turn off sun kept me from breaking 1300. That is the problem I have, even starting with a nonweather core, adding abomasnow to turn off weather dramatically improved my team, even though I wouldn't consider my team, a "hail team".
I hope not, unless we got a poke that brings SR when it comes out. It was a joke, but SR is also good because it makes people think more but reducing switching. Unfortunately, it hurts the viability of a lot of potentially good pokes (the legendary birds, charizard, ect).
And honestly, I am one of the few in the minority that the Ubers from gen 4 SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN RELEASED ALL AT ONCE. Testing each one at a time would have been fine.
And, I still hate sand veil. I have lost quite a few games because my counter/check, missed the ice move on the sub.
Maybe it is time to re-test some of the previously banned pokemon to see how they fare in a metagame where judgment isn't being super-clouded by a super large amount of threats.
For instance, I still really, really think that Deoxys-N deserves a real test, because it honestly did not get one and I don't see what's so unmanageable about it in this metagame. I could maybe see why Deoxys-A was too threatening, but I'm not convinced at all about Deoxys-N since every time I faced him when he was legal, he did absolutely nothing and still couldn't take a hit either. In addition, if you use Deoxys-N, you can't use Deoxys-S, who, IMO is much more useful since he doesn't really require tons of maintenance to do his job.
The question of whether it was Manaphy or Swift Swim that was more broken never got answered either since we never actually tested Manaphy without a Swift Swim metagame. This is another potential uber to bring down for testing.
I didn't mention Skymin since I don't think it even has a chance. With Darkrai, I personally don't think he's broken, but I have a feeling that I'm alone on that one, so I won't really elaborate.
For instance, I still really, really think that Deoxys-N deserves a real test, because it honestly did not get one and I don't see what's so unmanageable about it in this metagame. I could maybe see why Deoxys-A was too threatening, but I'm not convinced at all about Deoxys-N since every time I faced him when he was legal, he did absolutely nothing and still couldn't take a hit either. In addition, if you use Deoxys-N, you can't use Deoxys-S, who, IMO is much more useful since he doesn't really require tons of maintenance to do his job.
The question of whether it was Manaphy or Swift Swim that was more broken never got answered either since we never actually tested Manaphy without a Swift Swim metagame. This is another potential uber to bring down for testing.
I didn't mention Skymin since I don't think it even has a chance. With Darkrai, I personally don't think he's broken, but I have a feeling that I'm alone on that one, so I won't really elaborate.
Deoxys-N is virtually identical to Deoxys-A, who is absurdly, stupidly overpowered for OU play. It's bad enough that we have two Deoxys forms in OU play, but at least they're the forms that don't have ridiculously high attack stats to go with their speed.
Why exactly does the Metagame need to get MORE powerful? Wouldn't it be better for diversity if instead of trying to drag Darkrai and Deoxys down to OU and making an entire slew of pokemon laughably useless by comparison, we moved more things up to Ubers so the power creep doesn't make OU into Ubers with six less pokemon?
The first thing I recommend is playing some UU when the usage stats come out. Politoed and TTar and all that is going to be OU. I found playing UU in Gen 4 was an awesome way to take a break from the Blisseys and Salamences and Scizors etc.
Although Im pretty sure common sense will be able to figure itself out
I find carrying a weather pokemon just to change the weather is an excellent way to counter weather
I use Max HP and Max S.Def Careful Tyranitar.
As for Excadrill, Gliscor is the no.1 counter in my opinion, the best thing is they both have great synergy when paired with Infernape
In my opinion
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