The point here is that Kingdra is a 4x resist. A 2x resist would need double the defense to take the hit all the same. Thinking on it though, Gyarados can certainly take the hit due to Intimidate and reasonable physical defenses.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory
- Thread starter Philip7086
- Start date
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The point here is that Kingdra is a 4x resist. A 2x resist would need double the defense to take the hit all the same. Thinking on it though, Gyarados can certainly take the hit due to Intimidate and reasonable physical defenses.
Anyway, what about Relicanth, Carracosta, Omastar, and Kabutops?
And there's also Pokémon like Regirock and Rhydon.
And there's also Pokémon like Regirock and Rhydon.
They're all Swift Swimmers that are Rock/Water types. And we should just ignore the fact that they're banned until we have a round with no tiering changes.
Carracosta has Swift Swim as a HIDDEN ABILITY. And its normal abilities are Solid Rock and Sturdy, so don't count out old grandpa Blastoise!
Last I checked, Darmanitan is a mere 95 base speed (most things unable to take the blow out speed it and kill it), and very fragile with one of the worst defensive types. It's only going to work on something slower than it if it doesn't carry a scarf and revenge killed very easy, and if it carries a scarf, applying band/orb to damage calcs is wrong.
Also: Why aren't the ban discussions (both the actual talks and the results) on the front page anymore? It makes them feel less... legitimate. (As not updating the server to 1.0.21 despite it being out for at least a month and locking anyone who has updated out of building a ranking isn't very proper either, but another thing).
Also: Why aren't the ban discussions (both the actual talks and the results) on the front page anymore? It makes them feel less... legitimate. (As not updating the server to 1.0.21 despite it being out for at least a month and locking anyone who has updated out of building a ranking isn't very proper either, but another thing).
Yeah, that last bit is extremely improper. I was about to make a certain joke here, but then people would take me even less seriously.
And we should definitely change Cacturne's old analysis or word will spread that we're hypocrites who can't make up our mind.
And we should definitely change Cacturne's old analysis or word will spread that we're hypocrites who can't make up our mind.
Venusaur suffers from a severe case of anemia, Victini is much better (specially now that I know it isn't illegal as I thought as that's why I've never used it before lol...).
It's the only bulky Water with a 4x resistance to Fire.
I hope you realize your argument does not hold any water. And that Ninetales is one of my favorite pokémon, so by your logic, I should advocate for a Victini ban only because I want her in OU.
What does it have to do with anything?
Really TorchicBlaziken, every time I read your posts, I am never sure whether you're a troll or not. Stop being overly pedantic for once and try to discuss the topic at hand instead of nitpicking or trying to argue based on completely not-related-to-competitive-battling reasons. In the Round 3 thread, you made a post only to correct Haunter on the definition to the Kami trio, saying "They're not Genies". Really, do you think people care? Do you think this is of any relevance to the thread or, dare I say, to Smogon at all? I'm not attacking you here, I just want you to stop this.
*obligatory goodbye to Philip7086 and hello to JabbaTheGriffin/reachzero despite their not really having being away anyway*
I probably won't be able to put in the effort that I put into last round. Not that it matters at the moment... Anyway, I'd hate to turn this into a negative nancy but I want to point out something about suspect testing attitudes that I find a bit frightening:
Speaking of which, I'm hoping to have a thread ready to talk about just that. It won't be the scathing remarks that I've been making lately, though. I promise.
EDIT: ビクティニ says "bikutini" so... idk what the point is here
I probably won't be able to put in the effort that I put into last round. Not that it matters at the moment... Anyway, I'd hate to turn this into a negative nancy but I want to point out something about suspect testing attitudes that I find a bit frightening:
Uh... how about the whole point of the suspect test is to experiment?? Are we really just doing this to "make reqs" and prove to some rating system that you fit into its definition of "good"? It's no wonder these threads turn into crap when people obviously don't actually care about the game and just want to ban stuff because they can.
Speaking of which, I'm hoping to have a thread ready to talk about just that. It won't be the scathing remarks that I've been making lately, though. I promise.
EDIT: ビクティニ says "bikutini" so... idk what the point is here
capefeather said:
My thoughts exactly, except people try countering this with the excuse of Reuniclus and Excadrill still being in OU. I believe people are banning "just for the sake of banning".
Like I said in the last thread, I do hope we can reconsider some bannings for super obvious reasons. Drizzle has been super-papered over the months, so in my opinion and experience, it might not get a chance to be in the Test this time. I mean, it's powerful, but not overly unmanageable. Some common threats, such as Specially Defensive Jirachi, and Ferrothorn, make it completely manageable. It'll be fine, like how Latios is in a Ferrothorn / Jirachi / Tyranitar-infested game.
The only reason Latios is in a "Ferrothorn / Jirachi / Tyranitar-infested metagame" is because latios is in the metagame. Specially defensive Jirachi was made specifically to check Latios, ferrothorn takes 33% min from specs latios Draco meteor, (This does not make it a counter) and CB Pursuit was made for stuff like Latios. (Apart from the fact that Tyranitar is a weater starter :D)
Phil congrats on your dream job. I hope you make a great game. I'll look forward to playing it.
Thank you for the congratulations, etc. We will indeed be retaining Philip7086 on the "Brain Trust", but I would also like to announce that I'm adding a new member as well: Bloo.
Anyway, it's pretty much a given that I see certain issues differently from Phil, but most aspects of this round shouldn't change too much with the transition--the only factor I see as really likely to change is the actual length of this round, since I believe that keeping the round length consistent at exactly four weeks is pretty important to maintaining a smooth, predictable cycle.
Anyway, it's pretty much a given that I see certain issues differently from Phil, but most aspects of this round shouldn't change too much with the transition--the only factor I see as really likely to change is the actual length of this round, since I believe that keeping the round length consistent at exactly four weeks is pretty important to maintaining a smooth, predictable cycle.
keep speed boost blaziken in uber
boot latios to uber again same with drizzle
reg politoad w/o drizzle shouldnt be banned its a good uu/nu special wall
(in gen 4, might still be in gen 5 when tiering is finished)
boot latios to uber again same with drizzle
reg politoad w/o drizzle shouldnt be banned its a good uu/nu special wall
(in gen 4, might still be in gen 5 when tiering is finished)
I think things need to be looked at in a more logical way. I'll try and break things down rationally. Here are the infamous culprits now:
--------------Latios
----Arguments to Ban:
Can OHKO most of the metagame and can sometimes simply muscle his way through his few counters/checks. A number of possible sets, all of which are very powerful.
----Arguments to Keep:
The few counters/checks it has are very popular and serve a multitude of purposes other than simply "just countering Latios". Also, he is weak to pursuit, and he requires good prediction because without good prediction, more often than not hell be firing off resisted moves on a pokemon who can come in and faint him unless he can predict the correct switch (or non switch).
-----Personal Opinion
For smart players, Latios is usually not that much trouble. A combination of good prediction, and a team with at least one of his more reliable counters (which is good anyway because his counters are all good pokemon) will do him in quite easily. I think the fact that he can OHKO so much of the metagame makes too many players hit the BAN button too fast, without examining the entire picture. I Vote No-Ban
-------------Deoxys-S
----Arguments to Ban:
Fastest pokemon in the game coupled with good stats and a ridiculous support movepool. Can support in so many different ways, that countering it becomes difficult without knowing exactly what it is its trying to do.
----Arguments to Keep:
New abilities and moves in Mischievous heart, Magic Mirror, and Dragon Tail which are pretty popular are the bane of Deoxys-s as well as most support pokemon in general. Weak to Pursuit, and despite his decent-good stats, cannot stand up to too much of anything in the form of direct hits which all results in reduced time for support.
---Personal opinion:
I'm pretty torn on this. On the one hand, killing a simple support set by one or two strong hits or by packing rapid spin and nipping the problem in the bud is pretty easy. However, such a strategy is rendered moot for sets that set up dual screens. Concordantly, countering the dual screens can be easy, but is a different strategy than countering Entry hazard support. The point is that, it can stretch a team to the point of over centralization (what this thread is about) to be able to counter both sets right. I vote Ban because i think this pokemon breaks that support clause because of my reasons (but doesn't shatter it.)
--------------Deoxys-D
---Arguments to Ban:
See Deoxys-S, but remove the speed while adding ridiculous bulk.
---Arguments to Keep:
See Deoxys-S, but remove the fact that he can't stand up to too many hits, and add the fact that there are a large number of pokemon that can outspeed him and kill him, shut him down, or neutralize him before he can do too much.
---Personal Opinion:
This is very similar to the other deoxys to me. theres just too much it can do which has it breaking (not shattering) the support clause. I vote ban.
-----------------Excadril
---Arguments to Ban:
His ability, stats, and movepool lets him become the best and most effective sweeper in Pokemon provided there is a sandstorm. And, it isn't hard at all to have sandstorm up, considering both sandstorm inducers are great Pokemon. There is almost nothing that isn't OHKO'd by him, which is further augmented by the fact that he outspeeds everything. His very few counters/checks can either be easily dealt with by teammates or simply muscled through by himself sometimes. Add to that Rapid Spin, 2 Immunities including thunderwave, being the best user of balloon, and the fact that he is resistant to so many moves adds up to a juggernaut pokemon indeed.
----Arguments to Keep:
Totally reliant on sandstorm to be that devastating, but is still quite dangerous in his own right, but much less so. His very few counters/checks are popular and good pokemon.
----Personal Opinion:
In all honesty, what puts him over the edge for me is rapid spin. All the other bells and whistles make him great, but even they are quite overcomeable. The biggest reason is obviously that the other Weathers, Mach Punch, Skarmory, Gliscor and Bronzong are all very popular and very useful/powerful, which can render Excadril neutered EXCEPT for rapid spin. Rapid Spin on a pokemon which cannot be countered by any ghost and can also do all the other things that he does puts him over the tipping point for me. I vote ban.
--------------------Reunicles
---Arguments for Ban
Arguably the best ability in the game on a Pokemon with great stats, and a great movepool to abuse those stats. In 3 moves (Psychic, Shadow Ball, Focus Blast), not only does it get perfect coverage, there is nothing that isn't 2HKO'd after a single boost, while most things are OHKO'd. Even without a boost, everything barring very specific and overcentralized counters are simply 2HKO'd while a large number of things are still OHKO'd. Removing Shadow Ball removes coverage from Psychics, which can't touch Reuncules in the first place, leaving room for Recover. Counters for one of Reuncules set's will be beat by a different one. The only reliable counters for every Reuncules are way too overcentralized and specific just for him (like Spec. defensive Drapion). And even they can lose a large amount of the time.
---Arguments to Keep:
Once the set is figured out, easier to counter (slightly). Weak to pursuit (beats them anyway usually). Horrendously slow speed just about guarantees it getting hit before moving (unless it uses trick room, and even if it doesn't bulky enough to take most hits).
----Personal Opinion:
You can probably tell from my weak arguments to keep it from being banned how i feel. Its just too good. The only way to kill it is to damage it from direct attacks due to its ability. This causes a number of problems. First and foremost is that whenever Reuniclus feels at all threatened (rarely), it has no penalty for switching in and out, so keeping whatever means you have of counterring Reunicles healthy is already a losing battle. Secondly, hitting it directly is hard in itself because of Trick Room which allows Reunicles to hit you first, usually killing you. Thirdly, even actually damaging it doesn't do too much because of its great bulk. Theres just too much for it to be OU. This is the easiest one for me. I Vote BAN. PLEASE!!
----------------Other points of interest:
----I'd like to examine Thundurus to some degree. Thundurus is dangerous enough as it is. It also should have Mischievous Heart?
---I would NOT like to examine Drizzle. What people fail to realize is that the fact that Drizzle is in fact BALANCING the metagame. If you Ban Drizzle, Sandstorm will become too powerful because now in Gen 5, Sand is an offensive presence as well. Sun and Hail are too inferior for a host of reasons to begin with as "checks" for sand with or without Drizzle. The thing is, if you ban drizzle, you'll have to ban Sand.
-------Recap:
So, to recap I'd like to Keep Latios, and Ban both Deoxys, Excadril, and Reuniclus. I'd like to look at Thundurus, and Stop looking at Drizzle. I tried to be as rational as i could in every scenario.
--------------Latios
----Arguments to Ban:
Can OHKO most of the metagame and can sometimes simply muscle his way through his few counters/checks. A number of possible sets, all of which are very powerful.
----Arguments to Keep:
The few counters/checks it has are very popular and serve a multitude of purposes other than simply "just countering Latios". Also, he is weak to pursuit, and he requires good prediction because without good prediction, more often than not hell be firing off resisted moves on a pokemon who can come in and faint him unless he can predict the correct switch (or non switch).
-----Personal Opinion
For smart players, Latios is usually not that much trouble. A combination of good prediction, and a team with at least one of his more reliable counters (which is good anyway because his counters are all good pokemon) will do him in quite easily. I think the fact that he can OHKO so much of the metagame makes too many players hit the BAN button too fast, without examining the entire picture. I Vote No-Ban
-------------Deoxys-S
----Arguments to Ban:
Fastest pokemon in the game coupled with good stats and a ridiculous support movepool. Can support in so many different ways, that countering it becomes difficult without knowing exactly what it is its trying to do.
----Arguments to Keep:
New abilities and moves in Mischievous heart, Magic Mirror, and Dragon Tail which are pretty popular are the bane of Deoxys-s as well as most support pokemon in general. Weak to Pursuit, and despite his decent-good stats, cannot stand up to too much of anything in the form of direct hits which all results in reduced time for support.
---Personal opinion:
I'm pretty torn on this. On the one hand, killing a simple support set by one or two strong hits or by packing rapid spin and nipping the problem in the bud is pretty easy. However, such a strategy is rendered moot for sets that set up dual screens. Concordantly, countering the dual screens can be easy, but is a different strategy than countering Entry hazard support. The point is that, it can stretch a team to the point of over centralization (what this thread is about) to be able to counter both sets right. I vote Ban because i think this pokemon breaks that support clause because of my reasons (but doesn't shatter it.)
--------------Deoxys-D
---Arguments to Ban:
See Deoxys-S, but remove the speed while adding ridiculous bulk.
---Arguments to Keep:
See Deoxys-S, but remove the fact that he can't stand up to too many hits, and add the fact that there are a large number of pokemon that can outspeed him and kill him, shut him down, or neutralize him before he can do too much.
---Personal Opinion:
This is very similar to the other deoxys to me. theres just too much it can do which has it breaking (not shattering) the support clause. I vote ban.
-----------------Excadril
---Arguments to Ban:
His ability, stats, and movepool lets him become the best and most effective sweeper in Pokemon provided there is a sandstorm. And, it isn't hard at all to have sandstorm up, considering both sandstorm inducers are great Pokemon. There is almost nothing that isn't OHKO'd by him, which is further augmented by the fact that he outspeeds everything. His very few counters/checks can either be easily dealt with by teammates or simply muscled through by himself sometimes. Add to that Rapid Spin, 2 Immunities including thunderwave, being the best user of balloon, and the fact that he is resistant to so many moves adds up to a juggernaut pokemon indeed.
----Arguments to Keep:
Totally reliant on sandstorm to be that devastating, but is still quite dangerous in his own right, but much less so. His very few counters/checks are popular and good pokemon.
----Personal Opinion:
In all honesty, what puts him over the edge for me is rapid spin. All the other bells and whistles make him great, but even they are quite overcomeable. The biggest reason is obviously that the other Weathers, Mach Punch, Skarmory, Gliscor and Bronzong are all very popular and very useful/powerful, which can render Excadril neutered EXCEPT for rapid spin. Rapid Spin on a pokemon which cannot be countered by any ghost and can also do all the other things that he does puts him over the tipping point for me. I vote ban.
--------------------Reunicles
---Arguments for Ban
Arguably the best ability in the game on a Pokemon with great stats, and a great movepool to abuse those stats. In 3 moves (Psychic, Shadow Ball, Focus Blast), not only does it get perfect coverage, there is nothing that isn't 2HKO'd after a single boost, while most things are OHKO'd. Even without a boost, everything barring very specific and overcentralized counters are simply 2HKO'd while a large number of things are still OHKO'd. Removing Shadow Ball removes coverage from Psychics, which can't touch Reuncules in the first place, leaving room for Recover. Counters for one of Reuncules set's will be beat by a different one. The only reliable counters for every Reuncules are way too overcentralized and specific just for him (like Spec. defensive Drapion). And even they can lose a large amount of the time.
---Arguments to Keep:
Once the set is figured out, easier to counter (slightly). Weak to pursuit (beats them anyway usually). Horrendously slow speed just about guarantees it getting hit before moving (unless it uses trick room, and even if it doesn't bulky enough to take most hits).
----Personal Opinion:
You can probably tell from my weak arguments to keep it from being banned how i feel. Its just too good. The only way to kill it is to damage it from direct attacks due to its ability. This causes a number of problems. First and foremost is that whenever Reuniclus feels at all threatened (rarely), it has no penalty for switching in and out, so keeping whatever means you have of counterring Reunicles healthy is already a losing battle. Secondly, hitting it directly is hard in itself because of Trick Room which allows Reunicles to hit you first, usually killing you. Thirdly, even actually damaging it doesn't do too much because of its great bulk. Theres just too much for it to be OU. This is the easiest one for me. I Vote BAN. PLEASE!!
----------------Other points of interest:
----I'd like to examine Thundurus to some degree. Thundurus is dangerous enough as it is. It also should have Mischievous Heart?
---I would NOT like to examine Drizzle. What people fail to realize is that the fact that Drizzle is in fact BALANCING the metagame. If you Ban Drizzle, Sandstorm will become too powerful because now in Gen 5, Sand is an offensive presence as well. Sun and Hail are too inferior for a host of reasons to begin with as "checks" for sand with or without Drizzle. The thing is, if you ban drizzle, you'll have to ban Sand.
-------Recap:
So, to recap I'd like to Keep Latios, and Ban both Deoxys, Excadril, and Reuniclus. I'd like to look at Thundurus, and Stop looking at Drizzle. I tried to be as rational as i could in every scenario.
Interesting take on Deoxys-D. Most of the time, Deo-S really doesn't need its speed to get the job done, since slower offensive powerhouses are more liable to switch in on it the first chance they get. If we get rid of Deoxys-S, Deoxys-D will probably come right behind him and run the same sets with the added bonus of taking longer to die. We'll have to see about that one in the event Deo-S leaves.
Your interpretation of what I said is off. Of course I experiment during the suspect test, but I keep an account high on the leaderboard using teams I know are good because I have opinions on the metagame and want to vote. My issue with ratings not being reset is because I - and a lot of other good players - did a lot of testing and didnt pay attention to the leaderboard, whereas some people did a lot of grinding on an easier ladder, and thus they have a big head start on the rest of us.
And these threads turn into crap because the people who make reqs stay away from them. Don't imply that I dont care about the game.
Interesting concept. I would argue that it's more important to have people who have experienced the metagame than people who have screwed around with random ideas dictate the subject test, though. The best way to get to the top of the ladder is to abuse the top threats directly by using them or indirectly by taking advantage of the counters everyone needs to run to deal with them, so the people at the top of the ladder should have the best idea of what's broken because they've been using it. We get a nasty conflict of interest there, though.
on the topic of Deo-D (who i used on my fun team last round), it won't replace Deo-S if the latter gets banned (and deo-d is not even close to broken) mostly because it doesn't have nearly as much versatility - its attacks are coming off a pitiful base 70 in both offensive stats meaning any attempts at an offensive Deo-D will just fucking suck whereas you can kinda pull it off with Deo-S. it also probably won't be seen as a dual screener as base 90 speed is not fast at all and it has a lot of trouble preventing faster stuff from just setting up on it, also you don't want it hanging around for a long time anyway as its screens are just going to run out. it sets up hazards well but it's pretty damn easy to set up on it so.
it is a pretty neat CM reuniclus counter though
it is a pretty neat CM reuniclus counter though
To be honest, I'd rather see nothing banned. There are some thoughts that I want to post.
1. I think a lot of us came into this metagame treating it as though we could treat it as Gen IV. Both are obviously entirely different metagames, so we can't quite treat them the same. New threats have risen and old ones have died off. Keep this in mind, we're still dealing with a metagame in it's infancy until we get tiering sorted.
2. Thoughts on banning something: Bans should only be made if it's healthy for a competitive environment. I've always argued that a ban must be able to be enforced, well-defined, and warranted. The first two can be done easily, as we can force a ban with a simple clause and the Pokemon/Ability can be identified easily. It also has to be completely defined, which is simple enough for an RPG. The problem is whether or not these bans are warranted, or needed.
First and foremost, if a Pokemon works well against a certain playstyle, that does NOT necessarily mean it's overpowered and in need of a ban. Take Reuniclus as an example. While being able to work excellently against Stall by virtue of Magic Guard or offense with a Trick Room set (but unable to break both), he's still stoppable. While Psychic is nice for stopping Fighting-type moves, it really has no great set of resistances to work with, and a metric ton of weaknesses that can be abused easily. Scizor and Tyranitar can kill the damn thing easily enough through moves like Crunch and U-turn, yet even outside that, both are still extremely useful, like Scizor working as an excellent scout/revenger, while Tyranitar can act as a hole puncher with Choice Band, set Stealth Rock, bait in Gliscor and Scizor for a OHKO, etc.
Moving along, minor bugs or changes in gameplay don't necessarily warrant a ban either. Case in point, these so-called "weather wars" we see a lot of, where most teams carry a weather changer. I personally like to see it as an element of gameplay to add to the mix. This has created an interesting dynamic to see who can really protect their own weather changer better, etc. While some may or may not agree with Aldaron's proposal, that ban may have been warranted since it overcentralized the metagame to where you needed a weather changer of your own or you'd die to that painful SwSw+Drizzle combo.
Still, if something seems slightly powerful, just keep playing, since chances are, 99% of the time, a certain tactic or Pokemon will have counters to it. Exceptions do exist, and those fully warrant a ban if it means a healthier and more diverse metagame. Case in point: Pre-Platinum Garchomp, where matches degenerated to teams of Garchomp, Garchomp counter, counter-counter, counter-counter-counter, etc. If a tactic overcentralizes to that extent, then there's an uncounterable argument for a banning. This example goes somewhat hand-in-hand with arguing that bans for being "too good" should only be made if it overcentralizes the metagame to the exclusion of EVERY OTHER TACTIC.
My thoughts on the bans we've made overall: I think we moved just a bit too quickly with banning things. The bans on the cover legendaries and such are completely justified as they were purposefully overpowered, like Akuma from SFII. I personally feel we made too many bans when the metagame was in a chaotic stage, even while in it's infancy.
And just because a tactic works well against your precious playstyle does not mean it's broken. Nothing says that stall or offense has to thrive, there's no defined rule for such a thing. Just a general thought.
As for things I'd love to see go, the only thing I could really make an argument for is Garchomp and Deoxys-S. Everything else is fine. I'll expand on this in a later post.
To be fair though, Deoxys-S has that insane speed stat, outspeeding even base 100 scarfers of all things, and Taunt shuts down Deoxys-D, as most things that outspeed with Taunt can set up on him. The extra bulk just might not help if your offensive movepool is limited by virtue of base 70 offensive stats alongside not having the room to invest because of 50 Base HP. 160 base defenses is amazing, but 50 HP just isn't great for a support Pokemon, especially with his typing.
1. I think a lot of us came into this metagame treating it as though we could treat it as Gen IV. Both are obviously entirely different metagames, so we can't quite treat them the same. New threats have risen and old ones have died off. Keep this in mind, we're still dealing with a metagame in it's infancy until we get tiering sorted.
2. Thoughts on banning something: Bans should only be made if it's healthy for a competitive environment. I've always argued that a ban must be able to be enforced, well-defined, and warranted. The first two can be done easily, as we can force a ban with a simple clause and the Pokemon/Ability can be identified easily. It also has to be completely defined, which is simple enough for an RPG. The problem is whether or not these bans are warranted, or needed.
First and foremost, if a Pokemon works well against a certain playstyle, that does NOT necessarily mean it's overpowered and in need of a ban. Take Reuniclus as an example. While being able to work excellently against Stall by virtue of Magic Guard or offense with a Trick Room set (but unable to break both), he's still stoppable. While Psychic is nice for stopping Fighting-type moves, it really has no great set of resistances to work with, and a metric ton of weaknesses that can be abused easily. Scizor and Tyranitar can kill the damn thing easily enough through moves like Crunch and U-turn, yet even outside that, both are still extremely useful, like Scizor working as an excellent scout/revenger, while Tyranitar can act as a hole puncher with Choice Band, set Stealth Rock, bait in Gliscor and Scizor for a OHKO, etc.
Moving along, minor bugs or changes in gameplay don't necessarily warrant a ban either. Case in point, these so-called "weather wars" we see a lot of, where most teams carry a weather changer. I personally like to see it as an element of gameplay to add to the mix. This has created an interesting dynamic to see who can really protect their own weather changer better, etc. While some may or may not agree with Aldaron's proposal, that ban may have been warranted since it overcentralized the metagame to where you needed a weather changer of your own or you'd die to that painful SwSw+Drizzle combo.
Still, if something seems slightly powerful, just keep playing, since chances are, 99% of the time, a certain tactic or Pokemon will have counters to it. Exceptions do exist, and those fully warrant a ban if it means a healthier and more diverse metagame. Case in point: Pre-Platinum Garchomp, where matches degenerated to teams of Garchomp, Garchomp counter, counter-counter, counter-counter-counter, etc. If a tactic overcentralizes to that extent, then there's an uncounterable argument for a banning. This example goes somewhat hand-in-hand with arguing that bans for being "too good" should only be made if it overcentralizes the metagame to the exclusion of EVERY OTHER TACTIC.
My thoughts on the bans we've made overall: I think we moved just a bit too quickly with banning things. The bans on the cover legendaries and such are completely justified as they were purposefully overpowered, like Akuma from SFII. I personally feel we made too many bans when the metagame was in a chaotic stage, even while in it's infancy.
And just because a tactic works well against your precious playstyle does not mean it's broken. Nothing says that stall or offense has to thrive, there's no defined rule for such a thing. Just a general thought.
As for things I'd love to see go, the only thing I could really make an argument for is Garchomp and Deoxys-S. Everything else is fine. I'll expand on this in a later post.
To be fair though, Deoxys-S has that insane speed stat, outspeeding even base 100 scarfers of all things, and Taunt shuts down Deoxys-D, as most things that outspeed with Taunt can set up on him. The extra bulk just might not help if your offensive movepool is limited by virtue of base 70 offensive stats alongside not having the room to invest because of 50 Base HP. 160 base defenses is amazing, but 50 HP just isn't great for a support Pokemon, especially with his typing.
I was following you until you dared to bring up Reuniclus. I've spent countless hours hammering home the reasons why Reuniclus is Uber. I touched upon it in Post 69 but Ill relate some of these arguments once again because out of every possible thing bannable we've been talking about, Reuniclus is BY FAR most bannable, so I find it important to never miss an opportunity to argue about this.
Talking Points: Quick Reasons Why Reuniclus is Uber:
1. Magic Guard means the only way to get rid of Reuniclus is through direct attacks. There are problems with this. They deserve their own sublist:
1A. Reuniclus can switch out when it is threatened WITHOUT penalty. Dealing with Reuniclus is one thing, but making abosulute sure that your Reuniclus counter can make it through the duration of the battle through entry hazards at the very least while Reuncules is immune WITH recover makes it an uphill battle from the start.
1B. Reuniclus is Bulky. Even univested, Reuncules can take neutral and resisted hits pretty well. Very rarely is he univested too. This can be augmented by Calm Mind further. Plus recover.
1C. Reuniclus will probably attack first due to Trick Room anyway.
2. With a Life Orb, Reuniclues Base Special Attack should read somewhere around 166 or so. With 3 moves and 1 boost, he can OHKO just about eveything in the game, while easily 2HKOing the things that wont go down in One hit. OHKO's with residual damage. Even without a boost, he can 2hko almost eveything anyway, while only very specific and over centralize counters wont be.
3. With 2 moves, he only loses coverage only on Psychics, pokemon who can't really touch him anway, and can be easily dealt with (other than himself of course).
4. His counters can either be easily beaten or are too over centralized to him, and serve no other important purpose. Well examine both separately.
4A. For the "counters" that are useful, Reuniclus can pretty much beat them with the right set and/or prediction. Take Scizor and Ttar. Trick Room lets him go first, and Focus Blast will OHKO TTAr and 2HKO Scizor. If Reuniclus doesn't have Trick Room, or if it doesnt have Scizor (or excavalier) in OHKO range, it can simply switch out. If it predicts Pursuit, it can stay in and recover off damage and/or attack again and kill it.
4B. There are pokemon that exist which can be chosen and tailor made to somewhat counter him. Pokemon Like a Specially defensive Drapion, etc... The problem is that this is overcentralization for Reuniclus, and that is what a ban is for in the first place. Not to metion that he can beat these counters too over time....
If we are going to talk bans, lets talk bans. But, dont bring up a no-brainer.
In theory, of course. Not enough Pokemon are running Taunt in this metagame at all, let alone anything fast enough to actually do it for that to be a serious deterrent. And if Deo-D starts becoming popular, I'm curious as to how many of the Pokemon that even learn Taunt can find any space for it on their moveset.
That's a problem, and one that everyone seeking voting requirements should work to prevent.
- Status