U like Sun/fire types dont u?
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Gen V Initial UU
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Hmm, Victini does sound pretty interesting as a tank, actually. I might try that later.
Offensive CM Entei though is a pretty large threat. In just a few turns it goes from "lol Entei" to dishing out 50+% to things like Arcanine, without sun, and threatening burns on anything that wants to switch in. People seem averse to bringing in Chansey on it if they haven't seen all 4 moves, I'm guessing they're worried about it being mixed and rewarding them with Flare Blitz or Stone Edge.
Offensive CM Entei though is a pretty large threat. In just a few turns it goes from "lol Entei" to dishing out 50+% to things like Arcanine, without sun, and threatening burns on anything that wants to switch in. People seem averse to bringing in Chansey on it if they haven't seen all 4 moves, I'm guessing they're worried about it being mixed and rewarding them with Flare Blitz or Stone Edge.
^ To be fair, Flare Blitz isn't the worst thing in the world for Chansey, since it does a bucketload of damage back to Arcanine.
Lol why yes, I do :P, and grass-types as well.
Yeah, I'm kinda sad they released V-Create now as it would've been cool to run a tankish Victini in UU.
And yeah, Entei's CM set is certainly a great asset currently. Pressure is pretty good for it as well, and the main issue imo is lack of coverage. Literally it has Fire, Ghost, Psychic and Grass (SolarBeam) as coverage options, which is pretty awful if you want to stray from the Cune CM route with one attack. Chansey is however so bulky that even SE (Flare Blitz is just suicide) will do very little to it, making it a bit of a problem.
ok guys i know there is all this talk about CM Entei vs Arcanine but i just wanted to state that Zapdos i can guarentee will not stay UU because of all the pokemon on Rain Teams etc that wouldnt be able to KO it also Zapdos can pretty much kill anything it can hit super-effectivly
You seem to have been fixated on my statement rather than the purpose of it. Yes I said the sunny day team is lame, I think all weather teams are. I don't mean to offend anyone they are just mostly the same.
The main point here is the core of Victreebel, Victini and Sawsbuck on the drought team. I feel as though with proper support it is un-breakable.
The problem with CM Entei is that it needs setting up. For a Fire-type pokemon, that's pretty hard since Fire is generally a terrible defensive typing, and Entei misses sorely on Intimidate. I also resent the fact that you send that Entei has superior physical bulk to Arcanine, as Arcanine gets Intimidate AND a semi-reliable recovery move in Morning Sun.
Now, if you decide to run a Physical Entei set, you do have an option. There is a special Entei with Flare Blitz, but the problem is you're stuck with running Adamant. That already poses a problem because that means that you can't run special attacks on your moveset and expect them to do high damage. Another problem with running Adamant is that Jolly Arcanine outspeeds you. The other option gives you a wider range of Natures to choose from, but your strongest Physical STAB is the inferior Fire Fang.
Not saying that Entei is a bad pokemon, though. I just think that Arcanine is superior to it in every way, bar running CM sets.
I'm well aware of the limitations of the physical set. I stopped running the physical set when I realized it had access to Calm Mind. Also, let me put it to you one way.
Fire is weak to water, rock, and ground.
Water is usually nullified with the sun teams everywhere, and isn't too relevant.
Rock and Ground... isn't really anywhere outside of aerodactyl and Dugtrio. There's actually a ridiculous lack of it. And Entei beats Dugtrio 1-on-1, and Aerodactyl isn't particularly hard to check.
Also, Entei has superior physical bulk in the respect that Intimidate is temporary, 248/252 +Def on top of it's higher base stats isn't. It really doesn't take much damage from anything, and with Sub it can stay alive for a very long time.
Fire is weak to water, rock, and ground.
Water is usually nullified with the sun teams everywhere, and isn't too relevant.
Rock and Ground... isn't really anywhere outside of aerodactyl and Dugtrio. There's actually a ridiculous lack of it. And Entei beats Dugtrio 1-on-1, and Aerodactyl isn't particularly hard to check.
Also, Entei has superior physical bulk in the respect that Intimidate is temporary, 248/252 +Def on top of it's higher base stats isn't. It really doesn't take much damage from anything, and with Sub it can stay alive for a very long time.
top 53 are OU
54-106 are BL
107-159 are UU
160-212 are LU
213-265 are NU
THis is what I think should be the tier division for this new metagame.
BL is because the current UU seems to be 4th gen OU.
Many pokemon are too strong for standard UU but not strong enough for standard OU. The same goes for the LU tier in comparison to UU and NU.
54-106 are BL
107-159 are UU
160-212 are LU
213-265 are NU
THis is what I think should be the tier division for this new metagame.
BL is because the current UU seems to be 4th gen OU.
Many pokemon are too strong for standard UU but not strong enough for standard OU. The same goes for the LU tier in comparison to UU and NU.
Firstly, BL is a banlist, not a usage tier. We ban Pokemon that are broken in UU and they end up in BL. We only ban in extreme circumstanes, so hopefully we do not end up with 53 Pokemon in there!!!! That'd be 53 interesting Pokemon that wouldn't see significant usage in OU, and be banned from all other metagames. A total waste tbh. The number of BLs should be kept as small as possible, within reason obviously.
Secondly, the Pokemon that end up in the usage tier below UU (which you've called LU) are based on the usage in UU, not the usage in OU. We do not have UU statistics yet, since this is the first month of UU being played, so we wouldn't be able to calculate what would end up in LU, and the number of Pokemon that end up in UU could be higher or lower than 53.
Thirdly, there'll be banlists (counterparts to Ubers and BL) inbetween the other usage tiers.
Sand teams pack a ton of Rock/Ground moves, which gives Entei a hard time setting up (as well as making water normally effective).
The best shell smashers (without pass) in the tier are Carracosta and Crustle, both packing Rock moves. Flygon also will be carrying EQ at the least.
Personally I don't see there being that few Rock or Ground attacks in the tier as a whole, though admittedly some teams may neglect them to an extent.
The ideal number of Pokemon to have in BL is 0. Once Victini gets into OU, that goal seems very much reachable.
Seems to be pretty fun this time around :) I just completely skipped out on OU this gen, but as soon as the first few bans are done and the Strategydex is online, I will definitely jump into UU (and this time become a little more than a mediocre player, hopefully).
Sigh. There is no ideal number. Balancing the metagame should always remain top priority over some imaginary quota fabricated by people who are too afraid to ban a few Pokemon along the way just to get there.
(Also, tip to UU players: The round is going to end before the next usage statistics come out. You're going to have to vote on Victini no matter what happens. Choose wisely.)
+ even if Victini goes OU, he might come back (and i actually think he probably will) and so banning him now it's a great deal since he's gone for good, and even then, you still have Kyurem, and don't say that he is not broken in UU (he really have great defensive and ofensive stats), and even when week to Fighting and Rock Unstabed attacks don't kill him (and he swiches if STAB) he can also use sevral powerful sets, he really has to go
PS: the ideal is a stable and balanced metagame, not one where broken stuff runs rampart because people don't want to ban things
PS: the ideal is a stable and balanced metagame, not one where broken stuff runs rampart because people don't want to ban things
Big if. I doubt Victini will be OU any time soon, if at all, since the metagame has been well-established by this point and he's competing with other Fire types like Heatran and Infernape. And tbh, I'm not in any rush to replace them with Victini either. I mean, if you were to suppose we could replace all of the Chandelures in OU with Victini, then we'd be talking...but it'd be pushed back into obscurity again once Shadow Tag comes out.
Roserade, like last gen UU before it became OU again, is definitely going to be one of the better grass mons once Vulpix decides it wants to get the boot, Victini and Kyurem along with it.
Chansey is definitely a pain. Mew is kinda overrated in UU, I don't see the appeal. Just the same with Weavile. Definitely think Celebi is kinda... "meh" this gen, even in UU. Definitely thought I'd be seeing more Snorlax, Cresselia, Sigilyph, Azelf and Aerodactyles than I do.
Chansey is definitely a pain. Mew is kinda overrated in UU, I don't see the appeal. Just the same with Weavile. Definitely think Celebi is kinda... "meh" this gen, even in UU. Definitely thought I'd be seeing more Snorlax, Cresselia, Sigilyph, Azelf and Aerodactyles than I do.
Balancing the metagame doesn't conflict with that ideal; that ideal is part of balancing the metagame. Balancing the metagame means seeking a balance between dealing with threats some people don't want and the ideal of banning the absolute minimum. We shouldn't be afraid to ban if it's necessary; what we need to do is just recognize that we need to not ban when there isn't a good reason to believe that it's necessary.
When the metagame was establishing itself, Victini didn't have V-Create. Now, it does, and therefore the metagame has been changing since most of those stats were taken.
Victini is also 25% weak to steath rock unlike the latter two, not to mention its slower and weaker than infernape AND lacks the useful resistances that heatran brings to the table.
In other words, even with V-create, Victini is outclassed. I agree with SJ that he won't be coming into OU anytime soon.
As far as banning pokemon goes, there are a LOT of question pokemon in the tier beside the commonly mentioned Drought / Victini / Kyruem. So by just banning 2-3 threats are are easily argued broken (lol 660 bst) isn't really being ban happy and not going with bare-minimum. The drought / Kyruem metagame is extremely unbalanced and unhealthy. Banning these things would not hinder the metagame at all.
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