np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[alexwolf]

@sj crew
first of all you say that even if the sample size was as small as was with moody i have to say that moody was broken on everyhting that had it!only 4 or 5 pokes get it and they were all broken!
this is clearly not the case with double team...double team as a strategy sucks most of the times.someone else has done the calculations and i can't find them right now but it has been proven that when using double team most of the times you will fail before you get enough boosts...any competitive player know that when using double team chances are that you will fail miserably.it's not worth it.except some cases where you can get many free turns.but again if you can find many free turns why not setup with something more useful?why everyone is saying how difficult to kill is a +6 evasion poke and not how difficult is to kill a +6/+6/+6 sp.atc/sp.def/speed or a +6/+6 atck/speed poke?where are you going to find all these turns to become invincible???'cause double team only give a small chance that yuor opponent's attacks will miss.so you just spend one whole turn to make sure that 4 out of 5 of your opponent's attacks will miss...is this deal worth???in most cases not..and anyway if there were some pokes that proved to be broken if double team was allowed,like baton pass or some certain pokes,the majority of the pokes that get double team woudn't prove broken.only a few pokes maybe?so why did we ban double team and not the few pokes that would be broken with it?'cause they are uncompetitive moves and we don't want them in a competitive game!brokeness is irrelelvant to their banning...

@yoshiko
haxrachi isn't banned 'cause it is not broken.you can't accuse jirachi of being uncompetitive 'cause it isn't.iron head also does damage and there is nothing wrong about it.iron head's flinch comes along with damage so you cannot do something about it without altering the game's mechanics...this is also true about t-wave and body slam.they have other effects except than hax that's why they are not deemed uncompetitive!
quick claw in the other hand while certainly introduces pure luck has many many viable counters.just use slow pokes...this way if the opponent goes first you don't care 'cause you would already have played second...or use priority on fast pokes.with all these ways you nulify quick claws effetcs.
that's also true about focus band.it itroduces only luck but does it have viable counters?of course it has!just status the focus band user and it is guaranteed to die after you leave him at 1hp.or just use sandstorm!or hail!the counters are plenty and all are very viable!!!
again king's rock has very viable counters.just use a faster poke!simple!or use priority!or although this ability is not so good you can use inner focus pokes.again plenty of counters!
and something last.you said that you can encore the sub that garchomp makes.this doesn't solve the problem 'cause encore can always miss and even if it hits your attacks must not miss before the encore ends or else garchomp will come at the top...

sand veil and snow cloak are uncompetitive on everything that gets them.every pokes that gets them no matter how good or bad it is can contribute greatly to the win of the game if a miss occurs.every poke with this abilities can contribute even slightly to the win of the game if a miss occurs.and this is unfair.why a player should gain even a very small advantage over the other via these uncompetitive abilities?why we let factors that we can take care of increase the amount of unwanted hax in our game?we already have enough hax!

@alphatron
i explained above why quick claw is not uncompetitive...because it has viable counters!evasion in general doesn't have.
and on your question about garchomp my answer is that no i don't think that garchomp would be any problem if he didn't have sand veil.i think that he would be just a very potent offensive threat in the metagame but not suspect worth at all...

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

So, let me ask you guys a question. Why do you think Sand Veil makes Garchomp broken? Last generation Sand Veil was the final factor that pushed it into the Uber tier, without it most people were fine with it staying OU. This gen, its 102 base speed that was huge for its nomination is no longer as significant with the speed creep that brought us common things that outspeed it like the genies. It introduced defensive behemoths like Poison Heal Gliscor and even a new way to phaze. If Sand Veil just pushed Garchomp over the line last gen and Garchomp recieved new checks/counters this gen, then why should he be considered broken now?

Before anyone says its about evasion clause Im going to bring up something I've mentioned a couple times before: Evasion Clauses intent as I see it (you'd be hard pressed to find many who would disagree) is to remove moves/items/abilities who actively cause evasion to be modified. This is where Sand Veil drops out of play. It is a passive ability. It doesn't change evasion on its own, it requires the previous set up of Sandstrom. If you compare it to Brightpowder, BP changes the evasion of the pokemon just by being attached to it, no strings attached. Given the prevelance of other weathers Sand Veil has an even less likely chance of being active. For those reasons I beleive Sand Veil does not violate Evasion Clause.

Now please try to prove to me why Garchomp is broken.

 

[alexwolf]

So, let me ask you guys a question. Why do you think Sand Veil makes Garchomp broken? Last generation Sand Veil was the final factor that pushed it into the Uber tier, without it most people were fine with it staying OU. This gen, its 102 base speed that was huge for its nomination is no longer as significant with the speed creep that brought us common things that outspeed it like the genies. It introduced defensive behemoths like Poison Heal Gliscor and even a new way to phaze. If Sand Veil just pushed Garchomp over the line last gen and Garchomp recieved new checks/counters this gen, then why should he be considered broken now?

Before anyone says its about evasion clause Im going to bring up something I've mentioned a couple times before: Evasion Clauses intent as I see it (you'd be hard pressed to find many who would disagree) is to remove moves/items/abilities who actively cause evasion to be modified. This is where Sand Veil drops out of play. It is a passive ability. It doesn't change evasion on its own, it requires the previous set up of Sandstrom. If you compare it to Brightpowder, BP changes the evasion of the pokemon just by being attached to it, no strings attached. Given the prevelance of other weathers Sand Veil has an even less likely chance of being active. For those reasons I beleive Sand Veil does not violate Evasion Clause.

Now please try to prove to me why Garchomp is broken.

i am not trying to prove that garchomp is broken.iam trying to prove that sand veil is an uncompetitive ability!it doesn't matter if it is a passive ability 'cause when you use tyranitar alnogside garchomp you decide to actively abuse the hax that it brings.so it is literally the same if not worse..remember the +1 evasion boost of sand veil doesn't take any turns to activate.and when you say prevelance of other weathers what do you mean???42% of teams use weather in ou.25% of these teams use sandstorm!so the remaining 17% use other weather...is this prevailing???i don't think so...

 

[Yoshiken]

haxrachi isn't banned 'cause it is not broken.you can't accuse jirachi of being uncompetitive 'cause it isn't.iron head also does damage and there is nothing wrong about it.iron head's flinch comes along with damage so you cannot do something about it without altering the game's mechanics...this is also true about t-wave and body slam.they have other effects except than hax that's why they are not deemed uncompetitive!
So doing damage suddenly makes something competitive? So, let's say the next Pokemon game introduced an attack that had 20/30 BP and raised evasion +1 when used, would it be 'competitive'? No, it wouldn't. It would be Double-Team-but-better. Dealing damage doesn't stop something from being based around luck. Regardless of the damage that HaxRachi is dealing, the simple truth is that a paralysed Iron Head-hit Poke has a 27.6666% of actually moving. I had a case earlier where I moved twice in a row in this situation. That was pure luck, and I knew it. Dealing damage doesn't change anything, it just makes it better than another move that would do the same without the damage.
quick claw in the other hand while certainly introduces pure luck has many many viable counters.just use slow pokes...this way if the opponent goes first you don't care 'cause you would already have played second...or use priority on fast pokes.with all these ways you nulify quick claws effetcs.
that's also true about focus band.it itroduces only luck but does it have viable counters?of course it has!just status the focus band user and it is guaranteed to die after you leave him at 1hp.or just use sandstorm!or hail!the counters are plenty and all are very viable!!!
again king's rock has very viable counters.just use a faster poke!simple!or use priority!or although this ability is not so good you can use inner focus pokes.again plenty of counters!
Sure, but perfect accuracy moves exist. No Guard exists. There are counters to Garchomp, but the low chance of Sand Veil actually kicking in, plus the fact that it needs sand to be in effect, make them not viable in comparison to just hitting it and hoping that your 80% chance goes through. In the same way, you wouldn't specifically use a slower Pokemon to counter Quick Claw if a faster Pokemon is the better answer - you'll just hope that the 10% activation rate doesn't kick in.
and something last.you said that you can encore the sub that garchomp makes.this doesn't solve the problem 'cause encore can always miss and even if it hits your attacks must not miss before the encore ends or else garchomp will come at the top...
Okay, that one I'll give you, since this happened to me earlier. That said, it's happened once in so many games that it just proves the low odds of it occurring - yes, it's possible, but not as big a problem as some people seem to be insisting.
sand veil and snow cloak are uncompetitive on everything that gets them.every pokes that gets them no matter how good or bad it is can contribute greatly to the win of the game if a miss occurs.every poke with this abilities can contribute even slightly to the win of the game if a miss occurs.and this is unfair.why a player should gain even a very small advantage over the other via these uncompetitive abilities?why we let factors that we can take care of increase the amount of unwanted hax in our game?we already have enough hax!
We already have enough hax, so what's the harm in a little more~?
But no, more seriously, not everything with them is going to make a difference. I tried running a Glaceon for a while and it was dead weight against every Hail team I went against. The occasional miss didn't help its moveset woes, and I'm still confident that Glaceon's one of the top 3 Pokemon that actually uses either of those abilities.

Again, answers in bold.

 

[AlphaSpade]

After reading the topic in PR about Serene Grace, I think some of the things brought up could also be applied to Sand Veil.

I don't think the problem lies in Serene Grace itself, rather, the use of Serene Grace.

Last gen, almost every Garchomp was a Yache Chomp or a ScarfChomp. No one really cared about Sand Veil all that much (since SubChomp was rather rare back then). Nowadays, people are purposely trying to sub up in order to evade attacks. The problem is more along the lines of jerks are TRYING to evade attacks, which seems to be the reason to attack Sand Veil/Garchomp. Kinda like the whole RSE BP issue.

If Weather + Evasion ability did a better job of shutting the can of worms than Rain + SS would, I guess i'd support it (afaik, no serious harm is done to anything. Unlike rain, every poke has a niche outside its own weather), but as it stands, it just seems like another way for people to try to justify another "Speed Boost + Blaziken" like argument.

 

[Yoshiken]

To be fair, people are always going to use abilities to their advantage, and saying "People are using it unfairly" just means -it can be used unfairly-.
[/quits playing devil's advocate and arguing both sides]

 

[Darusare]

This is a crap arguement against sand veil
the thing that pushed Garchomp over last gen was the Yache SD set
with the possability of a sand veil miss on top of that
+2 Attack and 102 base speed destroyed
and he cant get thunder waved
honestly not much has changed
things got faster
thats it
but hes still suprisingly bulky and can take at least one neutral hit
plus good stab coverage
hell
ferrothorn only checks it when hes outraging
but with team preview you can see where one is
so you stone edge and EQ until he comes out
EQ it and rage away
Garchomp is broken as a whole

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

So...what your saying is that nothing changed...which is what I said...and you said my argument is crap?

 

[Troggy]

Nowadays, people are purposely trying to sub up in order to evade attacks. The problem is more along the lines of jerks are TRYING to evade attacks, which seems to be the reason to attack Sand Veil/Garchomp. Kinda like the whole RSE BP issue.

Anyone trying to take advantage of Garchomp's good defensive stats and typing is a "jerk"? That's a bit harsh.

I can see the points for it being broken, and I was in full support of it being Uber last generation. However, while other things like Latios, Thundergenie, etc are still in the metagame, I think Garchomp still has its checks.

Garchomp will probably be shown the door eventually, but for now he seems to fit in with the other overpowered but still OU Pokemon.

 

[adman2]

Please. Garchomp is not broken at all. I've used him on my Wifi team quite a bit. The speed creep in BW means that a lot of things can outspeed and kill him with Ice moves that, and the new Steel types, especially Ferrothorn, mean that you have to think carefully before you Outrage. Sand Veil is just an annoying hax, but not game breaking.

I seem to be one of the few people on Smogon Wifi who uses Garchomp anyway, so I haven't encountered Substitute Garchomp yet. What I said before applies to the Yache Berry variety.

 

[alexwolf]

the bolded letter are originally posted by Yoshiken:

So doing damage suddenly makes something competitive? So, let's say the next Pokemon game introduced an attack that had 20/30 BP and raised evasion +1 when used, would it be 'competitive'? No, it wouldn't. It would be Double-Team-but-better. Dealing damage doesn't stop something from being based around luck. Regardless of the damage that HaxRachi is dealing, the simple truth is that a paralysed Iron Head-hit Poke has a 27.6666% of actually moving. I had a case earlier where I moved twice in a row in this situation. That was pure luck, and I knew it. Dealing damage doesn't change anything, it just makes it better than another move that would do the same without the damage.

you have a point tin this one.if there was a move like this then it would have definitely been banned.
i guess the right way to put it is:what effect of this move is more significant?which is the primary reason that you use this move?and how well this move would be without the one effect or without the other...
almost in all cases the primary effects of moves is their damage or effects other than hax(paralyze making the opponent much slower) and not their secondary haxy effects(burn chance,freeze chance,crits,etc).
would iron head see any use if iron head didn't have a flinch chance?much smaller use but it still would have been used.
now would iron head see any use if the only thing that iron head did was flinch?no!so which of the 2 effects is the reason that people use this move.it's the combination of these 2 effects with damage being the main factor.
again why do you use thunder wave?to parahax the opponent or to slow him down?again both but the main factor is to slow him down...see?
now in your example why would we use this move with 20 bp and +1 evasion raise?to do damage or to raise evasion?of course to raise evasion.doing damage is just a plus that allows the move to get past taunt while also doing some little damage...
and finally as i told you again haxrachi,even if it was deemed uncompetitive(which it isn't),has many viable counters!
faster ghosts counter the body slam jirachi and faster grounds counter the t-wave jirachi.poison heal gliscor counters any haxrachi!anything faster with substitute counters him(the t-wave jirachi).anything faster that resists normal moves or can take one body slam without its sub breaking counters him(the body slam jirachi)aren't those enough?i think that they are!

Sure, but perfect accuracy moves exist. No Guard exists. There are counters to Garchomp, but the low chance of Sand Veil actually kicking in, plus the fact that it needs sand to be in effect, make them not viable in comparison to just hitting it and hoping that your 80% chance goes through. In the same way, you wouldn't specifically use a slower Pokemon to counter Quick Claw if a faster Pokemon is the better answer - you'll just hope that the 10% activation rate doesn't kick in.

perfect accuracy moves suck and are not viable at all and you know it.except aura sphere and thunder in rain which are not common at all.aura shpere has only 2 users in ou and thunder has 5 or 6 that require rain to have perfect accuracy.and garchomp is immune to one of these 2 moves...no guard exists sure!!!but in one pokemon!only one!do you consider these counters enough??i don't...
and if for some strange reason people suddenly begun to use quick claw on every poke and you were annoyed by this then of course you could run a bulky and slow team to counter the effects of quick claw...
is a bulky and slow team competitively viable???of course yes!
are there enough options to form a slow bulky team?of course yes!
are any of these counters that you mentioned for sand veil both comeptitive viable and enough widespread?of course no!

We already have enough hax, so what's the harm in a little more~?
But no, more seriously, not everything with them is going to make a difference. I tried running a Glaceon for a while and it was dead weight against every Hail team I went against. The occasional miss didn't help its moveset woes, and I'm still confident that Glaceon's one of the top 3 Pokemon that actually uses either of those abilities.

i know that in most of the battles these pokes would suck balls.but if in one of these matches a miss on your glaceon was one of the main factors that made your opponent lose wouldn't this have been an unfair loss?in top of the lucky crit and the lucky freeze that you may encounter in a battle why do you have to worry also for sand veil or snow cloak???it is completely unecessary.
in most battles they will do nothing but even if they 'cause you to lose 1 out of 20 matches(with 'they' i mean sucky pokes with sand veil or snow cloak) wouldn't this be unecessary?
why not minimize the luck factor in our game whenever we can?why not make the game more competitive even by a very very small amount?is there any downfall?no!is there any benefit?a small one but there is!

answers are under the bolded letters.

Please. Garchomp is not broken at all. I've used him on my Wifi team quite a bit. The speed creep in BW means that a lot of things can outspeed and kill him with Ice moves that, and the new Steel types, especially Ferrothorn, mean that you have to think carefully before you Outrage. Sand Veil is just an annoying hax, but not game breaking.

I seem to be one of the few people on Smogon Wifi who uses Garchomp anyway, so I haven't encountered Substitute Garchomp yet. What I said before applies to the Yache Berry variety.

we are not discussing about garchomps brokeness...we are discussing about sand veils and snow cloaks uncompetitiveness!

 

[Mario With Lasers]

If Weather + Evasion ability did a better job of shutting the can of worms than Rain + SS would, I guess i'd support it (afaik, no serious harm is done to anything. Unlike rain, every poke has a niche outside its own weather)

You cannot use Froslass in Hail, and Froslass is the only Ice-type pokémon with Spikes (besides lol Snorunt/Glalie and Cloyster) and also the only Ice-type with immunities to Normal and Fighting. You can't use Garchomp in Sandstorm either, and while we have no detailed usage stats as of now, I'm sure Garchomp isn't solely used as a Substitute abuser. And all of this because we don't want that 20% chance of missing.

 

[Yoshiken]

would iron head see any use if iron head didn't have a flinch chance?much smaller use but it still would have been used.
now would iron head see any use if the only thing that iron head did was flinch?no!so which of the 2 effects is the reason that people use this move.it's the combination of these 2 effects with damage being the main factor.
...Really? I don't. Iron Head's not an amazing attack, and the only thing that ever uses it runs a set designed to abuse it. I agree that, if it were just the flinch and no damage, it wouldn't be used, but if the power were lowered greatly, I think it'd still be used, just for that flinch rate.

and finally as i told you again haxrachi,even if it was deemed uncompetitive(which it isn't),has many viable counters!
faster ghosts counter the body slam jirachi and faster grounds counter the t-wave jirachi.poison heal gliscor counters any haxrachi!anything faster with substitute counters him(the t-wave jirachi).anything faster that resists normal moves or can take one body slam without its sub breaking counters him(the body slam jirachi)aren't those enough?i think that they are!
So... what you're saying is, on the whole, the only HaxRachi counters are Gliscor, Golurk and Steelix? Because, uhh, nothing else both resists/immunes Body Slam and Thunder Wave. Remember that one of the biggest arguments in this thread was about the variety of movesets on Reuniclus - it's not just a case of saying "It can be countered" but about saying "It can be countered semi-reliably" (And no, I'm not saying HaxRachi is broken. Hit at it for long enough and you'll get through with a decent check. Thing is, Garchomp is the same.)

perfect accuracy moves suck and are not viable at all and you know it.except aura sphere and thunder in rain which are not common at all.aura shpere has only 2 users in ou and thunder has 5 or 6 that require rain to have perfect accuracy.and garchomp is immune to one of these 2 moves...no guard exists sure!!!but in one pokemon!only one!do you consider these counters enough??i don't...
Okay, let's add in... Wide Lens, is it? The one that raises accuracy by 10%. So now your Ice Beam has a 12% chance of missing. 1/8 games, you'll lose to bad luck, but the other 1/7?

and if for some strange reason people suddenly begun to use quick claw on every poke and you were annoyed by this then of course you could run a bulky and slow team to counter the effects of quick claw...
is a bulky and slow team competitively viable???of course yes!
are there enough options to form a slow bulky team?of course yes!
Is it worth running specifically to counter a 10% chance of something happening? No!

in most battles they will do nothing but even if they 'cause you to lose 1 out of 20 matches(with 'they' i mean sucky pokes with sand veil or snow cloak) wouldn't this be unecessary?
why not minimize the luck factor in our game whenever we can?why not make the game more competitive even by a very very small amount?is there any downfall?no!is there any benefit?a small one but there is!
And here is where we disagree completely. The way I see things, luck is something you factor into any team. If possible, you should have at least two checks to all major threats so that a stroke of luck against one doesn't completely destroy you. So, as far as I'm concerned, removing Sand Veil and/or Garchomp is one less factor in team-building, and that is a VERY big downfall.

...Not to mention that I don't think we should be banning things for being 'uncompetitive'. If it's broken, ban it, but competitive and uncompetitive is completely subjective and I don't think we should be banning things based on how some members of the community see it or don't.

 

[truevillany]

Forgive me if this seems laughably misinformed, but wouldn't it be possible to use Scarf Haxorus as a check to sub-spamming Garchomps relying on Sand Veil hax?

Mold Breaker suppresses Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, and other attack-hindering abilities, and Haxorus is the only dragon besides Garchomp that learns Double Chop, a sub-destroying attack second only to Icicle Spear in effectiveness against Garchomp. Not to mention since the subs mean Garchomp isn't scarfed, Scarf Haxorus outspeeds it handily and can power through its defenses.

It's not even running a bad pokemon to counter a specific strategy, since Scarf Haxorus is a pretty powerful revenge killer. I'm just noting that a fairly overlooked OU dragon seems like it could be useful for the problem people have with Garchomp. Even if it doesn't kill it, that Double Chop is going to put a hell of a dent in Garchomp's subbing and sweeping prospects.

... and then you realize that the majority of garchomps are scarfchomps too... meaning haxorus isnt doing shit most of the time...

This is a crap arguement against sand veil
the thing that pushed Garchomp over last gen was the Yache SD set
with the possability of a sand veil miss on top of that
+2 Attack and 102 base speed destroyed
and he cant get thunder waved
honestly not much has changed
things got faster
thats it
but hes still suprisingly bulky and can take at least one neutral hit
plus good stab coverage
hell
ferrothorn only checks it when hes outraging
but with team preview you can see where one is
so you stone edge and EQ until he comes out
EQ it and rage away
Garchomp is broken as a whole

I really see where you are coming from. I used to think like you do. Unfortunately I was wrong. Particullarly about scarfchomp. Scarfchomp forces you not to go hyper offense. If you go hyperoffense and dont get a chance to use a speed boosting move on someone like... Salamence for example, then scarfchomp late game is like akuma using the raging demon. He will straight rape most offensive nonscarfed pokemon if they have taken the slightest amount of residual damage.

as much as I wanted to go all out offense, scarfchomp singlehandedly forced me to go balance. and as for the subbers/sand abusers... perish song / protect usually gives you some momentum.

Is garchomp broken? No sir.... Is he a force that you must prepare for or lose? absolutely. Is he overcentralizing to the point where it deserves a ban? I dont quite know yet, but I would lean towards no because he can be taken down effectively once you know what set he is running, and I try to stay away from bans in general.

 

[Fawfulmk-II]

I'm, sorry, but it must be said again: COMPLEX BANS ARE BULL SHIT!

Why? because you just restrict the user of weathers too damn much. you literally have to set up the weather and pray they don't have anyone to take advantage of it. you bring out a Politoed, and they bring out a Kingdra, you screw yourself. you bring out Tyranitar, they bring out Chomp, you are screwed. you set up Abomasnow, they get in a Mamoswine, they go "thanks for the boost, Buddy!" complex bans affect the user, but not the opponent, who can exploit them at will. It would make the metagame a big old guessing game,. since you pray that they don't have X Pokemon with ability Y. what happened to "don't blame the ability. blame the user of the ability?" it's why we banned Speed Boost Blaziken and not Speed Boost as a whole. Chomp is the only one who uses Sand veil to it's nastiest potntial, so he should be discussed, not bloody complex bans.

 

[jas61292]

we are not discussing about garchomps brokeness...we are discussing about sand veils and snow cloaks uncompetitiveness!

Read:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3447423

Or if you don't feel like reading the entire thread, then read this:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3504160&postcount=33


This is not to say those abilities shouldn't be banned, cause that is a different matter entirely. I just want to point out that your whole "uncompetitiveness" argument is completely skewing the true definition of the word.

 

[Fawfulmk-II]

^ agree

bans are caused on 3 things: Overcentralization, too easy sweep set ups, and too easy stall set ups(which might partiallly cantribute to the Minimize ban, too.) Sand veil and snow cloak don't overcentralize. Lax incense and BD don't overcentralize. Garchomp COULD Overcentralize, OR set up and easy sweep. see the diff, people?

 

[alexwolf]

...Not to mention that I don't think we should be banning things for being 'uncompetitive'. If it's broken, ban it, but competitive and uncompetitive is completely subjective and I don't think we should be banning things based on how some members of the community see it or don't.

ok we can't continue this arguing 'cause it is clear that we have entirely different points of view!

Read:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3447423

Or if you don't feel like reading the entire thread, then read this:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3504160&postcount=33


This is not to say those abilities shouldn't be banned, I just want to point out that your whole "uncompetitiveness" argument is completely skewing the true definintion of the word.

when i said we,i am reffering to me and the people that supported the complex ban and started this discussion.
all the others talking about garchomp being broken just mentioned it 'cause they didn't get that we are talking about uncompetitiveness.
they didn't just randomly went in this page and without looking the discuusion at all they mentioned garchomp as a suspect.
they mentioned him because they though that we were talking about garchomp's brokeness while in fact we are not...
but all this discussion was started by me and thorhammer(i think), talking about why sand veil is uncompetitive.so yes the subject of this discussion is uncompetitiveness and not brokeness!

^ agree

bans are caused on 3 things: Overcentralization, too easy sweep set ups, and too easy stall set ups(which might partiallly cantribute to the Minimize ban, too.) Sand veil and snow cloak don't overcentralize. Lax incense and BD don't overcentralize. Garchomp COULD Overcentralize, OR set up and easy sweep. see the diff, people?

you can better say it like this:i think that bans are caused on 3 things.
cause it is clear that your opinion isn't what the majority thinks.the majority already has banned things that don't overcentalize,don't allow easy set ups nor they allow easy stall stups(i don't even understand what you are saying but anyway).whcih are these things?evasion raising items,evasion raising moves and ohko moves!

 

[jas61292]

when i said we,i am reffering to me and the people that supported the complex ban and started this discussion.
all the others talking about garchomp being broken just mentioned it 'cause they didn't get that we are talking about uncompetitiveness.
they didn't just randomly went in this page and without looking the discuusion at all they mentioned garchomp as a suspect.
they mentioned him because they though that we were talking about garchomp's brokeness while in fact we are not...
but all this discussion was started by me and thorhammer(i think), talking about why sand veil is uncompetitive.so yes the subject of this discussion is uncompetitiveness and not brokeness!

Did you even read those links?

I'm not saying you are discussing Garchomp, or that you are not talking about competitiveness. I'm saying you're definition of uncompetitiveness is completely off, and its true definition does not at all back up what you are saying. Weather you are right or wrong about banning them is besides the point. The point is you have no valid argument because the one you are using is based on a false definition.

 

[alexwolf]

Did you even read those links?

I'm not saying you are discussing Garchomp, or that you are not talking about competitiveness. I'm saying you're definition of uncompetitiveness is completely off, and its true definition does not at all back up what you are saying. Weather you are right or wrong about banning them is besides the point. The point is you have no valid argument because the one you are using is based on a false definition.

sry 'cause i was in a hurry i didn't read them 'cause i thought that they were just pages of this thread were you would show me that the subject that is discussed was garchomp...

anyway that is the way that you and only you believe that uncompetitive is traslated.the characteristics of a desirable metagame don't exist to tell us exactly what we can and what we cannot do.it's not the bible.they are just a good start and a good skeleton on how we can understand what is a desirable metagame.

you say that double team would overcentralize the metagame 'cause it is a very valid strategy?where is your proof for this?let me hear your reasoning...why double team would overcentralize the metagame?

 

[capefeather]

OK, think for a second about what a combo ban on Sand Veil + Sand Stream means. Basically, Garchomp and Tyranitar can't be used on a team together. The combo ban has imposed an artificial factor in each Pokémon's effectiveness. "Oh, Tyranitar's a great Pokémon, but using it means I can't use Garchomp, making it a worse choice for my team than it could have been."

Is this really worth it? I guess that this is just a fundamental difference in opinion, but I don't think that the restriction of a "hax ability" that can't even be argued to be intentionally abused in any one case is worth the artificial impact on the viability of both Garchomp and Tyranitar.

 

[alexwolf]

OK, think for a second about what a combo ban on Sand Veil + Sand Stream means. Basically, Garchomp and Tyranitar can't be used on a team together. The combo ban has imposed an artificial factor in each Pokémon's effectiveness. "Oh, Tyranitar's a great Pokémon, but using it means I can't use Garchomp, making it a worse choice for my team than it could have been."

Is this really worth it? I guess that this is just a fundamental difference in opinion, but I don't think that the restriction of a "hax ability" that can't even be argued to be intentionally abused in any one case is worth the artificial impact on the viability of both Garchomp and Tyranitar.

when dw garchomp gets released it won't even be a problem...if you want to use garchomp and tyranitar together of course you can.you just can't use sand veil garchomp.and don't tell me how much garchomp will get hampered by losing sr 'cause it have been ages since i last saw a garchomp using this move.and if the garchomp user wants so badly to use the move sr they just don't use it with tyranitar in the same team.

 

[adman2]

Why would Scarf Chomp be that much of a problem? Outrage locks you in and makes you Steel type bait, and sacrifices power too. Even if it kills something. . .*sees Mamoswine at 68 and Weavile at 75* use Ice Shard! Garchomp can't do everything at once.

 

[AlphaSpade]

when dw garchomp gets released it won't even be a problem...if you want to use garchomp and tyranitar together of course you can.you just can't use sand veil garchomp.and don't tell me how much garchomp will get hampered by losing sr 'cause it have been ages since i last saw a garchomp using this move.and if the garchomp user wants so badly to use the move sr they just don't use it with tyranitar in the same team.

More like "if". And by if I mean a non-retarded Chomp that can be both genders.

Ok, so no one wants to combo ban SV + Sandstorm. No one wants to outright ban the abilities (which would be lame). No one wants to ban Garchomp...I guess the only other option is to ride the waves and live with it.

Also I could've sworn DW Snorunt was released.

 

[jas61292]

anyway that is the way that you and only you believe that uncompetitive is traslated.

com·pet·i·tive/kəmˈpetətiv Adjective

1. Of, relating to, or characterized by competition.
2. Having or displaying a strong desire to be more successful than others: "she had a competitive streak".


un-

1. a prefix meaning “not,” freely used as an English formative, giving negative or opposite force in adjectives and their derivative adverbs and nouns


Therefore

Uncompetitive =

1. Not characterized by competition
2. Not having or displaying a strong desire to be more successful than others


Obviously Pokemon is a competitive game, so definition one cannot apply.
The second one is exactly what I have been talking about. Unless you are saying that people using these strategies do not want to win, you are using the word wrong. Its just a fact.

the characteristics of a desirable metagame don't exist to tell us exactly what we can and what we cannot do.it's not the bible.they are just a good start and a good skeleton on how we can understand what is a desirable metagame.

you say that double team would overcentralize the metagame 'cause it is a very valid strategy?where is your proof for this?let me hear your reasoning...why double team would overcentralize the metagame?

I never said the characteristics were there to tell us what to do. In fact I said the opposite. They are there to let us know the things we should be looking for, not how we should achieve them.

And I do not know how good a strategy those would be, cause I can't use them. As I would like to believe people are rational with their bans, that is the only logical explanation that fits. For if that is not true, then there is no reason for them to be banned in the first place.