And then people will say "hell no, the Speed Boost Blaziken ban was enough, now this is just crazy", in the hypothetical situation where Blaze Blaziken comes back and some idiot comes along.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory
- Thread starter Philip7086
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And then people will say "hell no, the Speed Boost Blaziken ban was enough, now this is just crazy", in the hypothetical situation where Blaze Blaziken comes back and some idiot comes along.
I'm sorry, but people who make those counter-arguments are acting like idiots - You can level-up that Mewtwo outside of battle. You can change that Shaymin's moveset easily. Can you legitimately change Blaze Blaziken's ability? No. Blaze Blaziken is its own Pokémon; while physical Shaymin is nothing but a gimmick that can be changed easily without altering the Pokémon - same for the Mewtwo. Until they have some sort of crippling ability or a crappy "can't-unlearn" move (see: Rotom-S's Air Slash), then there's no reason to stupidly argue about moving them down a tier.
@ Shenlong
Hi Jump Kick used to be 100 BP, IIRC. Jump Kick was only 90.
Except, unlike in that situation, there is a mass of people who want Blaze Blaziken to come back. Even if the SBBlaziken ban happens, nobody wants a moveset/level/item/IV/Nature ban. The farther we go down the slope, the stickier it gets. It's far from slippery.
I actually did read you post, although I missed a few key words that made me thing you where opposed to Philip's desicion.
It doesn't matter if the people make bad desicions, quite frankly bad desicions need to be made sometimes, so people can learn from there mistake. Democracy is a trial and error process, the people may be wrong sometimes, but after they have seen there wrongs they will never make such votes again. For example, Nazi Germany was a democracy, and it made terrible desicions, but becuase of the terrible flaws they made, no one in world history will ever head down that same path again.
It doesn't matter if the people make bad desicions, quite frankly bad desicions need to be made sometimes, so people can learn from there mistake. Democracy is a trial and error process, the people may be wrong sometimes, but after they have seen there wrongs they will never make such votes again. For example, Nazi Germany was a democracy, and it made terrible desicions, but becuase of the terrible flaws they made, no one in world history will ever head down that same path again.
The stickier comment makes no sense as we can nerf any pokemon into OU/UU, etc by banning good aspects it has. The slope is slippery, it was said during the Aldaron proposal thread and look where we are now.
People use illegitimate pokemon all the time. They call them "legit hacks" b/c the stats are legit but the pokemon isn't. Pokesav/gen are really popular and are used all the time. But to be fair, Mewtwo wouldn't be Uber if it wasn't at level 100. It's only Uber at level 100. It's only Uber with Psychic moves. As you hopefully see, you can't unban pkoemon by suggesting using a worse set to make it fit into different tiers, that's it. And based on the suggestion of Blaze Blaziken getting UU w/this complex ban, the gimmick Shaymin is equally gimmicky.
First bolded part: They're called "legal hacks", as a "legit hack" is an oxymoron.
Second bolded part: Last Gen, Mewtwo's most common set used Ice Beam/Aura Sphere, not Psychic. Not sure if they all use Psybreak now or not.
I'm going to try (and probably fail from what I've seen in this conversation) to take this conversation back a notch. Lets look at it in perspective. Its one pokemon. Its good. Its banned. Is there something so wrong with that? Yes it could be taken down with a complex ban on ability. But why? Why does it matter so much? The threat was removed, and thats the purpose of the ban. Problem solved.
Magnet Pull made Magneton OU in ADV, Poison Heal and No Guard made Breloom and Machamp OU in DPPt, Drizzle has made Kyogre a surefire Uber until the end of time.
Garchomp is broken in DPPt with its best STAB. Besides, I'm sure Dragonite is broken with their best ability. Broken in UU.
Yes, what broke it was Close Combat. So let's ban Staraptor+Close Combat in DPPt UU? CC-less Staraptor plays completely different and has a shitload of counters.
Hi I have this Adamant DD Tyranitar and I want it to become a Careful Pursuit bro. Help me?
Rotom-S doesn't need to have Air Slash.
You forgot the part where none of this madness would be discussed if it weren't for Aldaron's proposal. If the "Characteristics of a Desirable Metagame" is our Constitution of sorts, Aldaron's proposal is our Patriot Act.
Oooo, don't talk to him like that, he is a ~suspect voter~, look, he even has a badge rip-off, oooo
The way I understand it, Blaziken was the one that got banned, NOT Speed Boost. Thus, Blaziken can't be used even if it's using Blaze.
This is unlike the ban on Moody, where the ability itself is banned. In this case, any Pokemon having the ability Moody is not allowed to be used. However this doesn't stop anyone from using Sniper Octillery, Ice Body Glalie or Unaware Bibarel. (Correct me if I'm mistaken in this part.)
IF it was Speed Boost that was banned, then any Pokemon having this ability is not allowed to be used in normal play. However, Blaze Blaziken, Tinted Lens Yanmega, Infiltrator Ninjask and Rough Skin Sharpedo can still be used if you want to.
If all my points above are valid, anybody who wants to use Blaze Blaziken in the grounds that it is "not "broken" is effectively claiming that it is Speed Boost that is broken, and that it is the ability that should be banned.
This is unlike the ban on Moody, where the ability itself is banned. In this case, any Pokemon having the ability Moody is not allowed to be used. However this doesn't stop anyone from using Sniper Octillery, Ice Body Glalie or Unaware Bibarel. (Correct me if I'm mistaken in this part.)
IF it was Speed Boost that was banned, then any Pokemon having this ability is not allowed to be used in normal play. However, Blaze Blaziken, Tinted Lens Yanmega, Infiltrator Ninjask and Rough Skin Sharpedo can still be used if you want to.
If all my points above are valid, anybody who wants to use Blaze Blaziken in the grounds that it is "not "broken" is effectively claiming that it is Speed Boost that is broken, and that it is the ability that should be banned.
I think their point is that neither Speed Boost nor Blaziken are broken individually, but together are broken.
ahh, I see. If that's the case, I'm not sure anybody would be pleased with another complex ban like that, and I'm not even sure it's allowed. I'd say just deal with it. I'm sure UU could do without Blaze Blaziken, and UU players can easily find suitable replacements for his roles, what with powerhouses now dropping unexpectedly in their tier.
But if people would continue to argue for the sake of arguing, this argument will not end. Besides, I feel that Blaziken's ban will not be revoked, nor revised anytime soon.
But if people would continue to argue for the sake of arguing, this argument will not end. Besides, I feel that Blaziken's ban will not be revoked, nor revised anytime soon.
They're not separate entities. It's like claiming Draco Meteor and Salamence alone are not broken, but together, they limit its potential checks and counters to a ridiculous degree. Speed Boost is a part of Blaziken the same way Draco Meteor is a part of Salamence. Weakening Pokemon to keep them OU is not a fundamentally sound idea.
Can we, please, get over the Blaziken argument? Blaziken is not part of the current testing stage so I'd like to read people's thoughts about Pokemon like Latios and Deoxys-S, which were voted Uber after round 3, rather than the usual bitching about Blaziken and Drizzle + SS.
To me, it seems that the current metagame is quite balanced and that there's nothing to remove.
Also, although this should be unnecessary, I exhort everybody to make their points in a civil manner. Flame wars are not going to be tolerated. Thanks.
To me, it seems that the current metagame is quite balanced and that there's nothing to remove.
Also, although this should be unnecessary, I exhort everybody to make their points in a civil manner. Flame wars are not going to be tolerated. Thanks.
Comparing an ability to an attack is a stupid idea in this case - a Salamence with Draco Meteor looks exactly the same as it would without it. If you made the example being "Salamence with Intimidate is broken, but it's not broken with Moxie" then it'd be suitable (although wrong, even if it's just an example). You can immediately tell if a Salamence has Moxie or not; but you can't tell if it has DM or not - therefore, attacks shouldn't be used in arguments against abilities.
Also, as I've said before, DM is not a "part of Salamence" as it can easily forget the move without the Mence itself being illegally altered. Speed Boost is indeed a part of Blaziken, but it is not a part of the non-broken Blaze Blaziken, as it can't have both abilities at once.
@ Haunter
Sorry; and this post was late cuz the Wii is dreadfully slow.
Your point about easily changing a moveset isn't complete. If I wanted to use an egg move, I'd have to breed up a new Pokemon, or if I want Roost on my Skarmory, I'll have to get a new one from a Gen IV and teach it there.
Deoxys-E is really good at getting its way. I always get scared of that thing because I'm always wondering, "does that thing have a 4x Super Effective move?" It's by far the best Dual Screener imo, which covers its 'weak defenses'.
Shaymin doesn't have egg moves.
Also, about Deoxys-S; it's been a tad underwhelming for me (I use T-wave/Taunt/Reflect/Recover), it usually just becomes a wasted slot once their supporters/etc. are gone, and it dies fairly quickly despite Reflect + Recover. Maybe I should run Spikes on it, but from what I've seen after using it, it's not worthy of a ban IMO.
What you've managed to prove is that complex bans based on anything other than abilities are unreasonably complex, and that we should make a policy to never use them. As no complex bans based on abilities are anywhere near as complex, you have not proven why there would be anything wrong with those bans, if they were to be the only bans allowed. As for what basis they would be this exception? In showing problems with other complex bans that are not present in ability complex bans, you have proven why ability complex bans are different from other complex bans and should be treated differently, and therefore why an ability complex ban would not necessarily lead to any of those things.
Haunter: Tbf, a lack of discussion implies that people are agreed on it being fine. I think the usage stats pretty clearly broke any arguments regarding those, anyways.
(Also, Blaziken was mentioned in the OP, so technically it's legit for this thread, right? ;o)
As a point, games are being played on POL. Everything can be changed easily, so those grounds for a ban are just bad.
As for Deoxys, yeah, it's really easily shut down by a Taunter or an effective attacker. Most of the time, I just see it as setup-bait.
Latios is a little more difficult, since it's a lot harder to effectively take down, but I'm inclined to say it's not over-centralising and, as such, shouldn't be banned.
(Also, Blaziken was mentioned in the OP, so technically it's legit for this thread, right? ;o)
Yo, my Ho-oh has 0 in every IV, is it allowed in OU now? :)
As a point, games are being played on POL. Everything can be changed easily, so those grounds for a ban are just bad.
As for Deoxys, yeah, it's really easily shut down by a Taunter or an effective attacker. Most of the time, I just see it as setup-bait.
Latios is a little more difficult, since it's a lot harder to effectively take down, but I'm inclined to say it's not over-centralising and, as such, shouldn't be banned.
I'm wondering what kind of taunter (other than prankster Thundurus\Tornadus\Whimsicott) can effectively shut down something with 180 base speed and access to taunt itself. Actually even prankster users must be careful because of magic coat.
Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with Deoxys-S being OU, it's just that your statement made me curious.
Also, about there being no discussion about the current suspects: on one hand probably means that people are fine with them, but on the other hand it's caused by the fact that many users in this thread are still discussing about controversial bans like Blaziken's, "de facto" shadowing and twisting the topic of the thread itself.
Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with Deoxys-S being OU, it's just that your statement made me curious.
Also, about there being no discussion about the current suspects: on one hand probably means that people are fine with them, but on the other hand it's caused by the fact that many users in this thread are still discussing about controversial bans like Blaziken's, "de facto" shadowing and twisting the topic of the thread itself.
I find that the most Over-bearing threat is Reniculus; it can easily fit on just about any team, without disrupting too much on the team, but forcing needless sacrifice for the 5 turns you outspeed it and are still hit first.
Excadrill is tollerable, due to being reliant on SS, but I think the neccessity to use some form of Weather disrupts other potentially good playstyles.
I don't think that Weather is fully broken; I mainly say that so that I can preserve my SunStall team. =]
Latios is relatively underwhelming without it's SoulDew yet, and Deoxys is just a fun match for my MagicCoat Tentacruel*. =] The main point of hillarity is that they just Taunted/TWaved/Stealth Rocked themselves, and they know it.
*MagicCoat Tentacruel is intellectual property of me. PM for permission, although you will have to beat me at Rock, Paper, Scissors.
Excadrill is tollerable, due to being reliant on SS, but I think the neccessity to use some form of Weather disrupts other potentially good playstyles.
I don't think that Weather is fully broken; I mainly say that so that I can preserve my SunStall team. =]
Latios is relatively underwhelming without it's SoulDew yet, and Deoxys is just a fun match for my MagicCoat Tentacruel*. =] The main point of hillarity is that they just Taunted/TWaved/Stealth Rocked themselves, and they know it.
*MagicCoat Tentacruel is intellectual property of me. PM for permission, although you will have to beat me at Rock, Paper, Scissors.
Hm. Maybe the ones I've run into have just been bad, then. >.>
Either way, seeing one on a team usually just means you lead with a powerful attacker, and since most attackers can deal with it pretty effectively, all it's doing is helping the rest of the team with screens - that, in and of itself, isn't that big a threat. This also isn't over-centralising, since having 'an attacker' is, uhh, pretty obvious.
What made Kyogre Uber was its 100 HP, 150 SpA, 140 SpD, and Water Spout. In the end, Drizzle was just a bonus.
The others were not banned; people just started using them because of their abilities, pushing them over the usage threshold. If Magneton was broken in UU because of its ability, then it would be BL in D/P. Breloom and Machamp ARE broken in UU, but it's not because of their ability; even in ADV, where they only had Effect Spore and Guts, they were BL.
man you just told us some things that you have told us that you didn't want to tell.so if you want to say somethng say it straight.don't say ''i am not going to say this'' and then put it in ( ).
this was your first post in this discussion.if you mean that in an other discussion about blaziken you had presented your arguements then sory but you must present again these arguements instead of quoting other peoples sayings...
i told you again that rules are there to change eventually!see aldaron's proposal!
i already responded to this...
it isn't like this.it was your attitude that is wrong for discussions.and of 'course when i see someone acting all high and mighty instead of presenting arguements then i am going to interefere!
But I actually didn't dismiss their arguments, because I continued to discuss their arguments in my next couple posts.[/QUOTE]i don't care what you did later.i care for what you did in the beginning.you came in the discussion by humiliating their point of discussion and then you said that your only arguement will be the refference that you made.and then in your next post when someone said to you that you did well you said that you were happy and that your purpose has been served!so don't try to convince me that you came for a discussion...
OH MY GOD THE DRAMA.
Blaziken is NOT coming back to OU. It is NOT HAPPENING. Pokémon + Ability bans are expressly DISALLOWED. As are more complex bans. The line was already drawn. Drizzle + Swift Swim is the ONLY COMPLEX BAN. EVER. Get over yourselves. Stop being Blaziken fanboys and bitching about hax from Sand Veil/Snow Cloak when you play a game with a large component of probability management. If you don't like playing a game with a large "luck" component, then go play a fighting game or something, this is NOT THE GAME FOR YOU.
Sandstorm is common because Tyranitar just so happens to be a completely awesome Pokémon, having good stats all around. It's thus commonly used on teams that aren't weather based. It just so happens its ability is Sand Stream. This means NOTHING. The HORROR. Why is rain so common in Ubers? Maybe because Kyogre is debatably the MOST POWERFUL POKÈMON in the GAME. Its ability also happens to be Drizzle. Thus rain is incredibly prevalent in Ubers. Yet non-weather teams function just fine. Maybe I'll go back to Gen IV and bitch about how my hail stall team needs to take out Tyranitar as quickly as possible, that being its highest priority in a match. I won't, because that is FUCKING RETARDED. If you are running a weather team, you are accepting the fact that against another weather team you need to eliminate their weather starter. THAT IS HOW YOUR TEAM WORKS, IT IS YOUR FAULT THAT YOUR TEAM WORKS LIKE THAT.
You are all just looking for things to ban, simply because you don't like stuff. This is stupid. The metagame has a fine balance right now. Ferrothorn doesn't need to go because it's at the top of usage. There will ALWAYS be something at the top of usage, that does not make it broken.
Going to stop before I start rambling too much.
Blaziken is NOT coming back to OU. It is NOT HAPPENING. Pokémon + Ability bans are expressly DISALLOWED. As are more complex bans. The line was already drawn. Drizzle + Swift Swim is the ONLY COMPLEX BAN. EVER. Get over yourselves. Stop being Blaziken fanboys and bitching about hax from Sand Veil/Snow Cloak when you play a game with a large component of probability management. If you don't like playing a game with a large "luck" component, then go play a fighting game or something, this is NOT THE GAME FOR YOU.
Sandstorm is common because Tyranitar just so happens to be a completely awesome Pokémon, having good stats all around. It's thus commonly used on teams that aren't weather based. It just so happens its ability is Sand Stream. This means NOTHING. The HORROR. Why is rain so common in Ubers? Maybe because Kyogre is debatably the MOST POWERFUL POKÈMON in the GAME. Its ability also happens to be Drizzle. Thus rain is incredibly prevalent in Ubers. Yet non-weather teams function just fine. Maybe I'll go back to Gen IV and bitch about how my hail stall team needs to take out Tyranitar as quickly as possible, that being its highest priority in a match. I won't, because that is FUCKING RETARDED. If you are running a weather team, you are accepting the fact that against another weather team you need to eliminate their weather starter. THAT IS HOW YOUR TEAM WORKS, IT IS YOUR FAULT THAT YOUR TEAM WORKS LIKE THAT.
You are all just looking for things to ban, simply because you don't like stuff. This is stupid. The metagame has a fine balance right now. Ferrothorn doesn't need to go because it's at the top of usage. There will ALWAYS be something at the top of usage, that does not make it broken.
Going to stop before I start rambling too much.
Resent this. But yeah, other than being a little more blunt about it, pretty much my thoughts on the matter.
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