On a different note(and post sorry) this has been an intense war between Fire and Ice. With Kyurem and Victini being the generals leading the battle...If one of them is banned then the other will rise, but if both are banned it will give rise to a greater evil..right now im more curious who that will be
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np: UU Suspect Test Round 1 - Sunny Days
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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I too think it's much too early to talk about banning things, but it's not a stretch to say that hail as a playstyle over-centralizes the metagame to a harmful degree by significantly reducing the number of Pokemon available in building a competitively viable team. The primary reason for this is probably kyurem, so I'd be more watchful of that thing than hail itself, but it's no secret that the viability of hail in UU has received substantial boosts this generation.
I don't think this is sound logic. The fact is that even if Victini only gets three or four shots at a team, V-Create does so much damage each time that it more than fulfills its purpose by punching huge holes in the opponent's core. Bloody hell, the move is stronger than Draco Meteor and is accompanied by coverage options that hit every one of its resists super-effectively. And that's not even taking Sun into consideration, at which point the only defensive pokemon that can switch into it are those with Flash Fire (since all the others are 2hko'd and Victini still outruns them after the speed drop).
This is a moot discussion anyway since Victini is almost certainly heading to OU, but in case it doesn't...yeah, it's not balanced in UU.
This. Victini will be gone from UU whether we ban it or not, since it'll most likely be OU next month.
Kyurem is pretty much the only ban-worthy suspect. The tier is surprisingly balanced.
I also think it's worth noting that because V-Generate is -only- a -1 Spe drop, its Scarf set is still quite speedy after one V-Generate, letting Victini get more than a single attack in every time it switches in (and limiting the number of things that can be called viable revenge killers).
You're not going to be 2HKO'ing 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Suicune anymore without the Choice Band... but when you're running a Sun team that enjoys seeing such Grass-type setup fodder... do you really need to? I'd rather avoid getting revenge killed against an offensive team by keeping some speed post V-Generate.
You're not going to be 2HKO'ing 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Suicune anymore without the Choice Band... but when you're running a Sun team that enjoys seeing such Grass-type setup fodder... do you really need to? I'd rather avoid getting revenge killed against an offensive team by keeping some speed post V-Generate.
We'll have UU voting before May stats come out iirc, so we can't trust Victini will be OU (specially if we go with DPPt's 3-month system). The UU community will have to vote on Victini's status.
EDIT --
Well shit, a week already.
Focus Blast, the move that has a 49% chance of hitting twice in a row? Most of the Steels in UU aren't even hit Super Effective by Focus Blast and they wreck Kyurem. Registeel beats it with TWave and Iron Head, Escavalier gets a clean OHKO, and things like Suicune, Milotic and Chansey also exist which don't give a shit about any Kyurem set.
No team with even the slightest bit of defense should be swept by Kyurem. Its stats are good but its movepool is AWFUL, there's a reason why it's not OU and its a pretty good one.
100 ranking isn't much when only the top 10 are above 1400. Also, what makes you think that you wouldn't get that far without using that hail team? The ladder is terrible right now and the metagame just started.
This is why I wish we had the patience for people having to back their votes up again. "I don't know why but its definitely overpowered!" is a ridiculous post that just makes a mockery of what the suspect process was originally made for.
Yeah once I saw how bad the posts were getting I skipped a couple, my bad. My post about V-Create not getting more than one kill at a time only applies under normal situations.
And Trick Room Victini isn't that great to begin with. The turn you waste setting it up means you probably aren't going to beat the counter that comes in.
Yuggles
hey that second guy isn't too bad
As it's been stated before, Registeel is simply a small hump in the road for Kyurem to get over. A Pokemon with no reliable recovery will not enjoy taking repeated Draco Meteors/Blizzards/Focus Blasts, plus Hail and Spikes damage. And Focus Blast only needs to hit one time, once Registeel is in KO range.
Escavalier is likely brought down in one hit by HP Fire, and Chansey is usually handled by Outrage. I realize that Kyurem can only have four moves at a time, but when you switch Escavalier in expecting Blizzard/DM/FB/DP, and you get hit by HP Fire, well, sucks to be you.
Milotic and Suicune don't even threaten Kyurem at all, their best attack is a neutral Ice beam coming off 100 or 90 base Special Attack, respectively. Milotic MIGHT be able to stall him out, but how can Suicune do anything when it doesn't even have recovery?
There's been so much discussion about the suspect Pokemon that I could probably just copy, word for word (with maybe a few word changes), someone else's opinion of Drought/Victini/Kyurem/Hail and post it as my reason for wanting them banned or not banned.
Victini has a move called U-turn that allows it to take a chunk out of Slowbro or whatever else comes in to counter it, and then switch out to something like Escavalier who can then set up and sweep for 3 turns.
Mixed. Hone Claws, Draco Meteor, Blizzard, Outrage @Draco Plate beats thins like Chansey, Suicune etc with ease.
The Defensive Hone Claws/Substitute/Dragon Tail/Blizzard-Focus Blast laughts hard at every defensive poke, getting into 101 subs with ease and natural bulkyness that let him take even SE attacks (hint: he is not OHKO by escavalier, and escavalier is 2HKO by him, there's not really a reliable swich in because of dragon tail (that will never miss after one HC), and with spikes and rock support then you're dead since stuff like chansey or milotic can hardly destroy the sub and became set-up fodder and stuff like cobalion just get dragon tailed (you have to get lucky if you want to actually kill him since you need to get Dragon tailed to something that can actually kill him (this thing takes about 80% from arcanines close combat and about 90-95% from iron head, not even a clean OHKO at full health)
Azure Demon
Guest
Solar power Zard, I also think Victrebell deserves a mention in sun, Sawsbuck, Zapdos blows shit up that isn't overly spdef bulky, and even then you can break those pokemon down with toxic.
Ohhhh and Honchkrow
breh
強いだね
On two occasions on the same day, I fell to about 2000. My third alt of that day was the hail one.
The most common Steels in UU are Registeel, Escavalier, Cobalion, and Empoleon (or rather, the ones that are viable) Out of those (and out of the Steels in UU) the only one not hit SE by Focus Blast is Escavalier. Every other Steel-type in UU is hit for SE damage.
Lets assume Kyurem is Hasty with 252 SpA EVs.
Unboosted Focus Blast vs:
Max HP Max SDef Careful Registeel: 39% - 46.2%
Max HP Max SDef Calm Empoleon: 50.5% - 59.7%
4 Hp Cobalion: 106.5% - 125.7%
Max HP Adamant Escavalier: 36.6% - 43.3%
LO Focus Blast (Mixed sets made to combat defensive teams) vs:
Max HP Max SDef Careful Registeel: 50.5% - 59.9% (2HKO after SR factoring Leftovers or switching into an Ice Beam or something)
Max HP Max SDef Calm Empoleon: 65.6% - 77.4% (Always a 2HKO)
4 Hp Cobalion: 138.1% - 162.8% (lol)
Max HP Adamant Escavalier: 47.7% - 56.1% (Considering Escavalier isn't weak to it...)
HP Fire obviously OHKOes Escavalier.
Every other Steel you might see (Aggron, uh Magneton?) is either OHKOed or... OHKOed... or is too crappy to bother with. And out of those Steel-types, Empoleon can't do jack diddly squat to Kyurem, Escavalier and Registeel aren't completely safe since Focus Blast still does a bucketload and they are both easy to wear down since they lack recovery and are slower, and Cobalion, while it can outspeed Kyurem, can't handle Focus Blast at all. You seem to be forgetting that Kyurem can do other things besides spam Blizzard. Its movepool may be crappy, but it has what it needs. Even if Focus Blast is inaccurate, it is still a viable, powerful move.
Bulky Waters are also out of the question. Milotic and Suicune really can't touch Kyurem...especially if it has a Life Orb or Choice Specs. They simply cannot handle repeated STAB Dragon-type attacks from something with the base Special Attack of Latios and the base Attack of Garchomp. Suicune can't even hit Kyurem with anything, whereas all Milotic manages is a weak Dragon Pulse that doesn't even 2HKO without investment.
You say that teams with any kind of defense block Kyurem:
Kyurem @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Hasty Nature (+Spd, -Def)
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Outrage
This set pretty much OHKOes or 2HKOes all of UU. Calm 4 HP 252 Def Chansey takes 47.7% - 56.1% from Outrage with Eviolite. Bold 4 HP 252 Def takes 43.6% - 51.6%, which are both 2HKOed after SR. Chansey needs 252 HP and 252 Def to avoid being 2HKOed by Outrage, but that opens it up to being worn down a lot more easily by repeated Special hits. Even Suicune takes a hefty 65.3% - 77.2% from Draco Meteor, easy KO range for a follow up Outrage or maybe even another DM. It also 2HKOes any Milotic set with DM + Outrage. Even 252 HP Calm Deoxys-D is 2HKOed by the same combination. Most of the other walls are weak to Ice-type attacks (Celebi, Nidoqueen, Zapdos, Donphan) or aren't fit to take Special hits (Dusclops, etc.). It requires a bit of prediction to use effectively, but it breaks up defensive cores like none other.
I find it hard to believe Kyurem sucks at breaking teams with "any kind of defense" when it has better Mixed capabilities then freaking Salamence. It has both base 130 Attack and SpA - why not use it?
The more I play around in UU the more painfully obvious that a ton of stuff don't belong here and are turning it into a mini-OU Gen 4. After Kyurem, Victini, Chansey who are pointless to argue for and virtually form a 3 way mini-metagame themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if a ton of stuff still sees the BL limbo banhammer straight away.
Vulpix and sun is the least of your worries, from what I've seen its mostly balanced stall teams and Hail which dominates the top of the ladder, sun is mostly good for getting up the ranks quickly but it has difficulties maintaining it because almost everyone is prepared for Victreebel and Victini the two top sun sweepers. Hail and sun actually seem to be locked in a fairly precarious balance imo at the moment but its Hail with the edge thanks to Kyurem.
Stuff like Togekiss, Azelf, Suicune, Mew are also ones who have absolutely no place being in UU with the only reasons they're even in UU to begin with is because they didn't make the OU cutoff and have stronger counterparts.
The first two are absolute nightmare sweepers one which makes a great cleric or bulky tank or simply happy to sweep a team with nothing but hax in an environment where most things are instantly dead by flinch. You know it is complete BS when you have a 5-1 advantage and lose to nothing but 100% flinch.
The other Azelf another nightmare sweeper and so unpredictable it again encourages revenge kills or hard stall. Mew has no place in this environment being basically Azelf with bulk and support to put even walls to shame. Suicune is simply too much for most things in UU to handle and makes things like Blastoise, Milotic, Slowbro for the most part redundant. It phazes far too fast, takes way too much punishment while being able to rebound back and cause more trouble.
Vulpix and sun is the least of your worries, from what I've seen its mostly balanced stall teams and Hail which dominates the top of the ladder, sun is mostly good for getting up the ranks quickly but it has difficulties maintaining it because almost everyone is prepared for Victreebel and Victini the two top sun sweepers. Hail and sun actually seem to be locked in a fairly precarious balance imo at the moment but its Hail with the edge thanks to Kyurem.
Stuff like Togekiss, Azelf, Suicune, Mew are also ones who have absolutely no place being in UU with the only reasons they're even in UU to begin with is because they didn't make the OU cutoff and have stronger counterparts.
The first two are absolute nightmare sweepers one which makes a great cleric or bulky tank or simply happy to sweep a team with nothing but hax in an environment where most things are instantly dead by flinch. You know it is complete BS when you have a 5-1 advantage and lose to nothing but 100% flinch.
The other Azelf another nightmare sweeper and so unpredictable it again encourages revenge kills or hard stall. Mew has no place in this environment being basically Azelf with bulk and support to put even walls to shame. Suicune is simply too much for most things in UU to handle and makes things like Blastoise, Milotic, Slowbro for the most part redundant. It phazes far too fast, takes way too much punishment while being able to rebound back and cause more trouble.
I don't think we should avoid becoming OU Gen 4 since if that's were the power level is in UU this gen, then we have to adapt ourselves, but is obvious that the stuff that is broken is just above that power level, even for a tier that see it's pokemon base every generation (and more this one with DW abilities everywere), i don't see Suicune or Togekiss broken to be honest, and chansey is a too soon to tell, but stuff like Hail (because of Kyurem) and Sun (Because of, well... SUN) is just tooo good right now, the fact that everyone is prepared (and in many cases overprepared for it) is just how powerful it is
You're right, I forgot that Kyurem always has Spikes and Hail support and I forgot that its counters are all within KO range. Silly me.
So your magic set is Draco Meteor/Outrage/Hp Fire/Ice Beam/Dragon Pulse/Hone Claws/Focus Blast @ Life Orb and Leftovers and Lum Berry?
RestTalk Suicune has been standard for 4 generations and it laughs at every Kyurem set I've ever seen. Just because you can't ohko Kyurem doesn't make you beaten by it either.
And then you're stuck against Steel-types. And Chansey will just status you.
You're forgetting something. It only has a 49% chance of getting those KOs before it gets destroyed by those pokemon because of Focus Blast's accuracy. And if you use Life Orb on an SR weak mon, you're taking away from Kyurem's greatest attribute (IMO): his defenses. So that set isn't exactly the "come in and start sweeping" set you're making it out to be.
Also, Suicune and Milotic don't care about it's Dragon attacks, especially if you're going to do your opponent a favor and use Life Orb. Suicune just CMs up while laughing in your face and Milotic spams Recover.
You're putting words in my mouth. I never said it sucks at anything, I just said it was much easier to beat than people in this thread are letting on. I use a scarf Kyurem and I think it's a great mon, but it's far from uncounterable.
I also disagree with your statement that Kyurem has better mixed sweeping capabilities than Salamence. It's slower and has no movepool, and it has a way worse ability and typing.
hate to repeat myself but while its true that ice is a bad typing, STAB ice is wonderful and lot better that flying ( kyurem ice beams are waaaaay too easy to spam ) and you seem to be forgetting that Focus Blast will only be used on a predicted switch or when the steels are in KO range kyurem really shouldn't go for the 2hko on the steels unless completely necessary
You are looking at Kyurem completely wrong. What makes Kyurem so good (not sure if it's broken, but not ruling it out) is the nature of its counters. What can switch into a Draco Meteor? Steel-types, Snorlax?, and Chansey. Chansey is the only one of those that has a reliable recovery move. Chansey is also the easiest Pokemon to come in and set up on. Suicune and Milotic can't switch into that beastly Draco Meteor, specifically Specs, but I have seen most Kyurem be easily beaten by Milotic.
Milotic wins with Dragon Pulse, by the way.
It's really not all about making some perfect set that can do EVERYTHING. The basic Specs set is still the best in my opinion because it hits incredibly hard with a spammable attack, as well as avoids the switch in issues with Stealth Rock and Life Orb. Don't try and make one set to rule them all, you'll end up with 7 moves, 700 Evs, and 3 items.
Milotic wins with Dragon Pulse, by the way.
It's really not all about making some perfect set that can do EVERYTHING. The basic Specs set is still the best in my opinion because it hits incredibly hard with a spammable attack, as well as avoids the switch in issues with Stealth Rock and Life Orb. Don't try and make one set to rule them all, you'll end up with 7 moves, 700 Evs, and 3 items.
95 Speed isn't bad at all (Hey, Rayquaza has 95 Speed, you don't see any complaining that it's a bad mixed attacker). I don't see why it needs a movepool when Draco Meteor and Outrage are pretty much all you need for about 90% of the opponents you meet anyway, while Steel-types are easily removed by a fun little Pokemon called Dugtrio.
I was specifically talking about MixQuaza, which has Extremespeed at the very most.
All the dugtrios I've ever faced have failed to OHKO my cobalion.
Azure Demon
Guest
This dugtrio comment is 100% wrong seeing as a lot of steels can surive dugtrio earthquakes and then drill him back and ohko him with gyro ball, iron head, or if its an option put it in bullet punch ko range.
You completely underestimate the defensive bulk of steel types.
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