np: UU Suspect Test Round 1 - Sunny Days

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Dugtrio has a pitiful Attack stat. However, Magneton has a great Special Attack stat.

There is also the fact that Air Balloon exists, and does something more than merely let them escape from Dugtrio.
 
This dugtrio comment is 100% wrong seeing as a lot of steels can surive dugtrio earthquakes and then drill him back and ohko him with gyro ball, iron head, or if its an option put it in bullet punch ko range.

You completely underestimate the defensive bulk of steel types.
I believe he's referring to Empoleon, Cobalion and Aggron, with Escavalier and Registeel the only steel-types to really take EQ that well.

If I'm already posting I better note how surprisingly hard it is to handle LO Roserade, and how good stuff like LO Mamo are.
 
And then you're stuck against Steel-types. And Chansey will just status you.
That wasn't the point, the point was simply that that set beats the pokemon you said "don't give a shit about any Kyurem set".

All the same it is a considerably less common set and I am thoroughly unconvinced Kyurem is broken.
 

Azure Demon

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I believe he's referring to Empoleon, Cobalion and Aggron, with Escavalier and Registeel the only steel-types to really take EQ that well.
Also Steelix and evolite Metag.
If I'm already posting I better note how surprisingly hard it is to handle LO Roserade, and how good stuff like LO Mamo are.
LO thick fat mamo is a bitch and a half to get rid of I completely agree on this one.

But Roserade I haven't had problems with, The very few times I faced it anyway.
 
LO thick fat mamo is a bitch and a half to get rid of I completely agree on this one.
Just as a note Thick Fat Mamo is actually male only, and as such should be unable to get a ton off egg/prevo moves like Ice Shard, SR, Icicle Spear and Crash, basically depriving it of any useful Ice moves and hampering its coverage, so if this is not the case on the sim then Thick Fat Mamo may not be as deadly as you think.
 

Azure Demon

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Just as a note Thick Fat Mamo is actually male only, and as such should be unable to get a ton off egg/prevo moves like Ice Shard, SR, Icicle Spear and Crash, basically depriving it of any useful Ice moves and hampering its coverage, so if this is not the case on the sim then Thick Fat Mamo may not be as deadly as you think.
True very true. It isn't quite as deadly as the snow cloak version it is still. It can do some damage in hail with a choice band.
 

Fireburn

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You're forgeting something. It only has a 49% chance of getting those KOs before it gets destroyed by those pokemon because of Focus Blast's accuracy. And if you use Life Orb on an SR weak mon, you're taking away from Kyurem's greatest attribute (IMO): his defenses. So that set isn't exactly the "come in and start sweeping" set you're making it out to be.
I'll give you the fact the Focus Blast's accuracy is a bit of a hindrance, but the fact that its really the only coverage move Kyurem needs (Dragon/Ice/Fighting hits everything neutrally except Shedinja who is lol anyway) to obliterate any Steel-type in UU it wants is still pretty terrifying.

Also, Suicune and Milotic don't care about it's Dragon attacks, especially if you're going to do your opponent a favor and use Life Orb. Suicune just CMs up while laughing in your face and Milotic spams Recover.
As Heysup helpfully pointed out, Suicune and Milotic don't work since neither can switch in. The only set either of them can really take on is the Scarf set. Specs and Mixed sets happily obliterate them, and the Sub 3 Attacks + Staller sets use them as set-up fodder.

You're putting words in my mouth. I never said it sucks at anything, I just said it was much easier to beat than people in this thread are letting on.
Your Other Post said:
No team with even the slightest bit of defense should be swept by Kyurem.
I do not see how I am putting words in your mouth. Saying that even the tiniest bit of defense on a team can stop Kyurem implies that it sucks, but I'm sorry if I misunderstood.
 
I like how people's answer to Fire or Ice sweepers is SR.

Espeon and Xatu are a lot more viable in this tier now that Tyranitar isn't super ubiquitous.
 

jrrrrrrr

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I'll give you the fact the Focus Blast's accuracy is a bit of a hindrance, but the fact that its really the only coverage move Kyurem needs (Dragon/Ice/Fighting hits everything neutrally except Shedinja who is lol anyway) to obliterate any Steel-type in UU it wants is still pretty terrifying.
I'd still rather have Fire Blast or Earthquake =[

As Heysup helpfully pointed out, Suicune and Milotic don't work since neither can switch in. The only set either of them can really take on is the Scarf set. Specs and Mixed sets happily obliterate them, and the Sub 3 Attacks + Staller sets use them as set-up fodder.
Heysup said that Milotic beats Kyurem and his post didn't say anything specific about Suicune other than Specs Draco Meteor, which isn't common in my experience. Did I miss a post or something?

I do not see how I am putting words in your mouth. Saying that even the tiniest bit of defense on a team can stop Kyurem implies that it sucks, but I'm sorry if I misunderstood.
It meant that Kyurem has plenty of methods of checking and countering it already built into the "standard" team. You can paste as many damage calculations as you want, but in practice Kyurem has a lot of difficulty getting around Stealth Rock and Steel-types (and water-types if it isn't using Specs DM).

It's kinda like Victini IMO, it can come in and hit things hard but as far as sweeping goes it's really limited. People against me haven't had much difficulty playing around it and I expect it to come down to Earth once we have a tier settled down. Of course it will probably be banned before we can make a fair judgment, but hey that's the system that promotes banning instead of learning that we're using now so w/e.


I like how people's answer to Fire or Ice sweepers is SR.

Espeon and Xatu are a lot more viable in this tier now that Tyranitar isn't super ubiquitous.
Donphan is pretty common too, but even with Espeon it's hard to keep off the field. You can only switch it in so many times because of its terrible defenses.
 

Fireburn

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I'd still rather have Fire Blast or Earthquake
Wouldn't we all? But to be fair, Focus Blast covers everything EQ would hit (and does a crapton more to Cobalion who is really popular), and the one thing (Escavalier) you may need a Fire move for is already shanked by HP Fire (or just repeated Focus Blast.)

Heysup said that Milotic beats Kyurem and his post didn't say anything specific about Suicune other than Specs Draco Meteor, which isn't common in my experience. Did I miss a post or something?
I've never come across a Milotic that could beat a Specs or Mixed Kyurem. The best Suicune can do is Roar out Kyurem, and Specs/LO DMs do a crapton, not to mention Suicune is hopeless against the Staller set.

Milotic is a decent check, but a counter I would say absolutely not.

I've actually seen about the same numbers of Suicune and Milotic (and most Milotic I've seen don't have Dragon Pulse), but these points aren't provable until we get UU stats so :/

It meant that Kyurem has plenty of methods of checking and countering it already built into the "standard" team. You can paste as many damage calculations as you want, but in practice Kyurem has a lot of difficulty getting around Stealth Rock and Steel-types (and water-types if it isn't using Specs DM).

It's kinda like Victini IMO, it can come in and hit things hard but as far as sweeping goes it's really limited. People against me haven't had much difficulty playing around it and I expect it to come down to Earth once we have a tier settled down.
Most teams I see either only have SR and one of a bulky Water or Steel. (If they have both, its usually Cobalion as the Steel which can't take Focus Blast.) Yes, Stealth Rock is a pain, but its not crippling (looking at you Charizard). (And its super easy to spin in UU thanks to Foresight Top and Odor Sleuth Donphan both screwing up the common Ghosts.)

I'm not gonna comment on Victini because I personally think its just Drought teams as a whole that are over the edge, and there is the possibility of it going OU lol.
 

shrang

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This dugtrio comment is 100% wrong seeing as a lot of steels can surive dugtrio earthquakes and then drill him back and ohko him with gyro ball, iron head, or if its an option put it in bullet punch ko range.

You completely underestimate the defensive bulk of steel types.
And are they bulky enough to take an EQ and then survive Kyurem's next assault (As in switch-in, either avoid the 2HKO or outspeed and OHKO Kyurem the next turn)? I don't think so.
 

SJCrew

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Dugtrio or not, Kyurem is perfectly capable of beating every Steel in UU on its own. The one thing that really sets Kyurem apart from most of UU's powerhouses is that even if we do predict which set it's running, it's not any easier to deal with; Specs, Shuffling, and LO sets can all make a separate case for BL. UU powerhouses shouldn't be able to piledrive the entire tier like this.
 
@ Fireburn and Jrrrrr:

Both of you dismiss a point each by claiming that the Pokemon or move in question isn't common, which is not especially relevant in a argument related to the effectiveness of a set/Pokemon - unless it is in relation to that set/Pokemon being bad for running the unpopular move/set in question. Milotic with Dragon Pulse makes a great counter to some Kyurem sets, but needs to be weary of Specs and Band Draco Meteors/Outrages. Regardless of how common Milotic is with Dragon Pulse, it makes a viable check to any of those sets - its commonality has nothing to do with it. As it stands, it has the ability to counter all Kyurem sets with some limitations on what moves it can switch into vs Specs/Mixed, and it checks every set with Recover shrugging off basically any attack or breaking Substitutes with Dragon Pulse.

Specs Kyurem is apparently not especially common (.....even though I see Specs Kyurem all of the time). This doesn't matter, because the Specs set is amazing regardless. It can deal amazing amounts of damage to any team without a concrete counter (there are roughly 2....), passes would-be counters such as Milotic, and does not suffer from the switch-in limitation that comes with Life Orb / Substitute. The fact that it is (apparently) not used often does not effect this.

td;dr Commonality of counters / sets / Pokemon are not relevant unless they are proven to be caused by ineffectiveness (you can't prove it the other way around), and even then, the only thing that's relevant is the fact that it is ineffective in the first place.
 
Draco Meteor vs 252/4 Bold Milotic 78.7% - 92.9%
Draco Meteor vs 252/252 Calm Milotic 58.9% - 69.5%
Blizzard vs 252/4 Bold Milotic 39.4% - 46.5%
Blizzard vs 252/252 Calm Milotic 30% - 35%

Milotic is not surviving the swich (and not really surviving Blizzard + DM)
 
Draco Meteor vs 252/4 Bold Milotic 78.7% - 92.9%
Draco Meteor vs 252/252 Calm Milotic 58.9% - 69.5%
Blizzard vs 252/4 Bold Milotic 39.4% - 46.5%
Blizzard vs 252/252 Calm Milotic 30% - 35%

Milotic is not surviving the swich (and not really surviving Blizzard + DM)
Is that with specs/LO/or without?

and on the random note, i cant find an updated damage calc

EDIT: Meaning one that includes Gen. V
 
I think you may have misunderstood the point Heysup was making, Gerard. He didn't claim that Milotic beats the Specs set:
Milotic with Dragon Pulse makes a great counter to some Kyurem sets, but needs to be weary of Specs and Band Draco Meteors/Outrages. Regardless of how common Milotic is with Dragon Pulse, it makes a viable check to any of those sets
As for the calcs, the first two are Modest with Specs while the latter two seem to be Timid with both LO and Specs. For the sake of consistency, Modest +1 Blizzard does 33.76% - 39.85% to the Bold set and 25.38% - 29.95% to the Calm set.
 
My bad, but the point that it doesn't since uninvested and unstabbed dragon pulse

252/252 Calm Milotic (you know, the set that "kills" specs kyurem) Dragon Pulse vs Specs Kyurem = 36.1% - 42.7%
barely a 2HKO with rocks (and not even 100% of the time), so no, she is not a counter

PS: and if she doesn't heavily invests in HP and SpD then she's just 2HKO with blizzard and rocks
PSS: i use the smogon calculator, just change the values of the empty spaces

and just for the sake of it, Claw Sharpen Kyurem = 23.7% - 28.1%, so she might not even brake the sub
 
Donphan is pretty common too, but even with Espeon it's hard to keep off the field. You can only switch it in so many times because of its terrible defenses.
Since when were 90/120 physical defenses terrible? Sure, 90/60 isn't stellar, but it's enough to take neutral hits once.

Unless you were talking about Espeon. 65/65/95 isn't gonna wall anytime soon, but it's enough to take a hit. Considering Espeon generally comes in when you predict a non-attacking move, if your prediction is good, you can avoid damage rather easily. You could even outpredict people, but that is a risky game. For example, Donphan v Vulpix, Donphan expects Espeon, so EQs. I Will-O-Wisp [I hold a Sash on my Vulpix]. Donphan may finish off Vulpix, or go for rocks so it can't be death foddered. Either way, Espeon is now safe to switch in.

Also, SR is not hard to keep off the feild:

Viable pokemon who can prevent or remove Stealth Rock:

Hitmontop
Xatu
Espeon
Donphan
Fast Taunters [Aero, Houndoom, Mischevious Krow, Azelf, list goes on]

There are more than enough ways to prevent hazards in UU. I generally only get hit by them if my foe has multiple users, and Espeon is KO'ed. For some reason, I always think that each team only has one SR user.

It gets annoying when I switch in on Donphan Earthquakes, then deal 70%, and then revenge the Donphan... only to find out that Donphan didn't carry SR, and something completely random did. It was a WIGGLYTUFF once <_<

Most teams having multiple SR users goes a way to show the issues Sun and Hail are, because Victini and Kyurem both take 25% upon switching in. [Not to mention it nuters Typholosion's Eruptions]
 

Shroomisaur

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Since when were 90/120 physical defenses terrible? Sure, 90/60 isn't stellar, but it's enough to take neutral hits once.

Viable pokemon who can prevent or remove Stealth Rock:

Hitmontop
Xatu
Espeon
Donphan
Fast Taunters [Aero, Houndoom, Mischevious Krow, Azelf, list goes on]

There are more than enough ways to prevent hazards in UU. I generally only get hit by them if my foe has multiple users, and Espeon is KO'ed. For some reason, I always think that each team only has one SR user.

It gets annoying when I switch in on Donphan Earthquakes, then deal 70%, and then revenge the Donphan... only to find out that Donphan didn't carry SR, and something completely random did. It was a WIGGLYTUFF once <_<

Most teams having multiple SR users goes a way to show the issues Sun and Hail are, because Victini and Kyurem both take 25% upon switching in. [Not to mention it nuters Typholosion's Eruptions]
First of all, I believe jrrrrrrr was talking about Espeon having terrible defenses, not Donphan - because Espeon would switch in to reflect the SR. What he means is that Espeon can only switch in so many times to prevent hazards before it's taken down, especially if you mispredict and eat an EQ. Most players who see an Espeon/Xatu on the opposing team will be careful using hazards until they are KO'd.

There are a large number of viable spinners in UU though, especially since Top/Donphan can carry Foresight/Odor Sleuth. Sun and Hail teams shouldn't have a struggle to keep the field clean.
 
Xatu is generally bulkier with reliable recovery than Espeon so if you don't like Espeon's fragility simply use Xatu instead. However I have to agree that keeping hazards off the field is fairly difficult at times since to make sure your Rapid Spinner can do their job 100% by running Foresight or Odor Sleuth you effectively have to sacrifice a coverage move slot.

Specs Kyurem is apparently not especially common (.....even though I see Specs Kyurem all of the time). This doesn't matter, because the Specs set is amazing regardless. It can deal amazing amounts of damage to any team without a concrete counter (there are roughly 2....), passes would-be counters such as Milotic
Don't think Milotic is any use at all against specs Meteor, as I recall special defensive spreads still get clean 2HKO'd.

Far as I've seen there are only 3 good counters against Specs Meteor being bulky Empolean who takes them fairly comfortably unless it crits and can fire back a STAB Flash Cannon which chances are will 1HKO. Escavalier who again comfortably takes the Meteor and threatens with a 1HKO back. Or Chansey who is just a pink turd and counters far too much to begin with anyway.

Most other steels are fairly ineffective, Registeel takes little from Meteors but does shit all back and the damage piles up, about the most threatening thing it can do is fire a Stealth Rock. Cobalion takes a metric ton of damage for something that resists it. In truth the only reliable 'counter' towards Specs Meteor is to have a Light Screen up at all times which is weak at best.

Though I have to say its a crying shame people don't use Specs Meteor more, they'd see how broken Kyurem really is in an environment where its bulk makes sure it can rarely be revenge killed and able to run and it can comfortably outspeed many things.
 
Victini, Kyurem and Chansey with Eviolite into BL

Just because Chansey w/Evio is pretty much identical to Blissey which splits its usage, but it's an overly effective wall at this level.
 
i wouldn't call eviolite chansey an overly effective wall. hell, i wouldn't even call it an effective wall. it's already setup on by so much, and lack of leftovers means it is having to heal constantly which gives the opponent more time to setup. most of the times i've had any reason to run chansey i'd run leftovers just to the prevalence of hail/entry hazards. chansey isn't this unbreakable wall people are making it out to be.
 
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