I'm not going to do calcs with every single pokemon on that team ROFL. And I used it before so I know. It's not just base stats rofl, it's movesets (eg. Mamoswine gets Superpower).
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np: UU Suspect Test Round 1 - Sunny Days
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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I'm not going to do calcs with every single pokemon on that team ROFL. And I used it before so I know. It's not just base stats rofl, it's movesets (eg. Mamoswine gets Superpower).
Wow, give me a break and stop being such an asshole. I already said that I'll keep in mind that Mismagius needs to be burn-free to beat Chansey from now on.
I'd just like to say that Wish passing is never nearly as easy as people like to say. Some people are very good at defensive play and can get into ideal situations for Wish passing, but that is a legitimate skill and not some really trivial thing. Or maybe I'm just that terrible at stall and Wish passing is easier than I make it sound. I'll leave that up to the reader to decide.
thanks man, i always thought i was the only one who can't use wish properly.
Not many people used Wobbuffet much last gen, either, didn't stop him being broken. Snatch can easily be used, something like Softboiled / Seismic Toss / Toxic / Snatch. Perfectly good special wall right there. Snatch is a much more useful move on Chansey than something like Stealth Rock ever will. It was proven to be extremely successful in Ubers, and UU only makes Chansey's job even easier.
Wish is awesome if used propertly, I won't deny that since it's an awesome ability, the bad, hazzard and attacks, you really can't bring something below 50% of health unless perfect prediction since you will loose the wish, for example, if you bring hera into chansey, she'll swich out, but if you predcit dusclops or gligar are coming then you use night slash/Stone Edge and catch them in the swich in, if they die, then you just got rid of one of your opponents pokes AND your foe lost their enormous wich a wish is useless if it doesn't get to it's receiver
PS. you can also snatch softboiled/wish so it's another thing you can think to counter chansey
PS. you can also snatch softboiled/wish so it's another thing you can think to counter chansey
OK seriously, this post is terrible and does nothing to further the conversation. I can understand English not being your first language, but this post literally doesn't make any sense. Please, for the sake of everyone, take more time with your posts and ask others or PM me before posting to help you with your English. I completely understand you wanting to contribute to the conversation, and I feel bad for calling you out, but it's getting pretty ridiculous.
And if you do speak English, then please for all the love that is holy, use a word document to spell check your post beforehand and try to articulate your thoughts a little clearer.
Sorry for detracting this exemplary thread. Carry on.
Chansey:Broken as hell, it can tank hits isn't taken out by some common fighting type moves. Excellent bulk and has the less used counter to take weaker hits and OHKO back when the opponent tries to get some sort of 2HKO.
The versatility is great as well when it's a cleric and a wish passer.
Victini: I have to carry a flash fire and or slowbro to take a v-create from the this thing, it's good speed natural bulk and typing tends to give it many opportunities to switch in and dwindle down your team to a pile of slop. He should be pulled since the usage was unfair since the event came out near the end of the calculation phase.
Drought: Has to go, it breaks many pokemon which would otherwise be normal standard pokes. Instead of banning the abusers the set up should be banned if it breaks the tier and the other pokemon aren't broken with it.
The versatility is great as well when it's a cleric and a wish passer.
Victini: I have to carry a flash fire and or slowbro to take a v-create from the this thing, it's good speed natural bulk and typing tends to give it many opportunities to switch in and dwindle down your team to a pile of slop. He should be pulled since the usage was unfair since the event came out near the end of the calculation phase.
Drought: Has to go, it breaks many pokemon which would otherwise be normal standard pokes. Instead of banning the abusers the set up should be banned if it breaks the tier and the other pokemon aren't broken with it.
Ok, people are starting to get a bit ridiculous in this thread. I'm just reading a few posts and people are claiming Chansey is broken when 'used properly' or with 'proper team support'. It's kind of a joke to me when I read these things because of the stupidity in it.
Listen, if a pokemon needs support from something else to be 'broken' then it isn't broken because it needs that support to get by something. In fact, it's quite ironic, because that reasoning of 'with the proper team support to handle threat x or y chansey is broken' provides the support to prove that Chansey ISN'T broken. You just admitted that there are threats that handle Chansey and you need other pokemon to handle those threats. Welcome to how to build a good team!
I'm not picking a side of advocating for Chansey, since I also agree it is an annoying Pokemon, but on the flip side it has plenty of things that can handle it and there are a lot of pokes that take advantage of it due to its predictability.
Chansey is a nuisance, but there's no solid argument for its banning in my opinion.
Listen, if a pokemon needs support from something else to be 'broken' then it isn't broken because it needs that support to get by something. In fact, it's quite ironic, because that reasoning of 'with the proper team support to handle threat x or y chansey is broken' provides the support to prove that Chansey ISN'T broken. You just admitted that there are threats that handle Chansey and you need other pokemon to handle those threats. Welcome to how to build a good team!
I'm not picking a side of advocating for Chansey, since I also agree it is an annoying Pokemon, but on the flip side it has plenty of things that can handle it and there are a lot of pokes that take advantage of it due to its predictability.
Chansey is a nuisance, but there's no solid argument for its banning in my opinion.
On this subject, I think some of you need to realize that Victini has other usable moves besides V-create and its physical options. For example: its way better special movepool. You get Grass Knot for Rock types, Thunder for really bulky Water-types (Suicune and Milo), and even Psychic for odd ducks like Rotom-H. How the hell is anything supposed to get past a mixed Victini? If you can't answer that, it's time to stop being predictable and start using it on our teams. Mixed Victini is the best set I've used yet.
You're right, we should run a Pokemon with 5 magikarp as teammates in order to determine whether it is imbalanced.
Excuse the facetiousness, but you have to understand that your argument is too asinine to merit a more reasonable response. Pokemon is a team game, and even the most dominant Pokemon in a metagame have needed support to do their jobs properly.
Stating that Chansey needs to be in a well-built team to do its job is by no means an endorsement of how balanced it is, but rather an observation implying that a poorly-built team with a Chansey on it, or a player that uses Chansey to sponge Staraptor Brave Birds, will not use its abilities to their greatest potential.
Regarding Victini, I heard someone ran into a Work Up Victini with Grass Knot and other special moves in addition to V-Create...I'm curious as to how stall goes about handling something like that.
I've read tons of posts in this thread, and all I've seen is a bunch of fancy calcs that show that it's difficult to OHKO Chansey. Is "difficult to OHKO" really a valid argument for banning?
And then we have posts containing things like this:
...not very convincing, guys.
And then we have posts containing things like this:
...not very convincing, guys.
It's not. An even better question is what Chansey's going to do if you fail to OHKO her by the smallest margin. Is it suddenly hailing and you're on your last sliver of life? Or do you get to go again and KO while Chansey uses Seismic Toss? I'm putting money on the latter situation being far more common.
Also, remember this: if your calcs show that Cobalion only OHKOs Chansey at 75%, be smarter about your play and Taunt it before you setup/attack. Not OHKOing isn't going to hurt you if you're dealing well over half per attack.
Idk why people won't just slap a Wobbuffet on their team. Chansey users see Wobbuffet and they start letting Raikou and shit OHKO their other Pokemon out of fear of a predicted Wobb into Chansey. And it's not like Wobb is only for Chansey seeing as how it can Tickle+Pursuit/Dugtrio fuck the shit out of every single stall Poke. Can also super fuck Hitmontop so that's free hazards for you the rest of the game.
You should all start campaigning as Wobbuffet for UU suspect!
But seriously why isn't every team just Wobbuffet+trapper and then a shitload of Special Attackers. You think players plan for Raikou/Suicune/Yanmega/Empoleon/Jolteon when they have a Chansey on their team?
You should all start campaigning as Wobbuffet for UU suspect!
But seriously why isn't every team just Wobbuffet+trapper and then a shitload of Special Attackers. You think players plan for Raikou/Suicune/Yanmega/Empoleon/Jolteon when they have a Chansey on their team?
I've been using Mixtini since the start of UU and I'm quite upset that you're spoiling my secret.
It looks bad on paper but when you're facing teams of 6 mons instead of papermon teams it DESTROYS. They bring in Arcanine for V-Creates, you 2hko with Psychic if SR is up while it can't touch you. They bring in Milotic or Suicune for V-Creates, they get 2HKOd by Grass Knot. Nidoqueen comes in because you're using GK, it gets OHKOd by Psychic. They bring in Chansey to "revenge" because they think you're special, boom V-Create.
Unlike CB Victini, Mixtini can actually sweep and it isn't forced to lower its stats.
You are posting your opinions as facts in this thread and it's quite annoying to read. His argument isn't asinine at all. Chansey can't do anything on its own except maybe hit something with status, and if you are a very good predictor it can pass Wishes sometimes too. In turn you get a pokemon that is set up on by most of the tier and makes your team easy to predict around. No competent team is going to look at the team reveal screen and say "shit, they have Chansey, now I can't win".
As aeroblacktyl/mop alluded to, taking out Chansey leaves most teams that use it with a gaping hole because they use it as an all-purpose special wall. The defensive characteristic of banning something implies that a pokemon can wall things under common conditions. Chansey can't do that, it is dependent on its teammates probably more than they are on it.
Your point is that pokemon is a team game and therefore every broken pokemon needs team support, and I think it doesn't make sense. Something like Lugia or Giratina (some of the few broken defensive mons) doesn't care about what else is on its team, they are going to wall almost everything no matter what. Chansey, on the other hand, needs to hope that they don't have any physical attack users, or Taunt, or Nasty Plot, or Substitute/CM, or Dugtrio, etc.
I am doing no such thing. I have absolutely no investment in Chansey's ban one way or another, and I recognize that the individuals who do not want it banned have valid points.
It's just that the vast majority of people posting here have not been making any.
There is quite a lot that's wrong here. First, since when is spreading status, setting up a hazard, or passing wish/using aromatherapy considered "can't do anything on its own"? Because every time Chansey comes in, it will probably be doing one of those things.
Second, how is Chansey set up on by most of the tier? In order to set up on Chansey, you either need 101 Substitutes (or a ghost typing with a sub), Taunt, the ability to ohko Chansey, or some way of not caring about status (i.e. Rest). These are not qualities the majority of Pokemon in the tier typically posses. And even if we do assume that Pokemon that can deal with Chansey are running amok, so what? Chansey's entire job is to come in on the "significant portion of the metagame" it irrevocably walls and support the team, and it does that regardless of whether it has a counter waiting in the wings. This is why I keep repeating ad nauseum that we cannot apply the same logic towards defensive suspects that we do to offensive ones.
The only way a Pokemon can truly be said to counter Chansey is if its switch-in steals significantly more momentum than whatever Chansey just did, and there are a couple of these around; Mew was mentioned, as was SubKyurem. These are Pokemon so dangerous that the free turn Chansey affords them is a lot worse than any status it may have spread/healed or wishes it may have passed. But they are not common, and they are definitely not "most of the tier".
You just took a flying leap over a metaphorical chasm of logic, my friend. How does the rampant exploitation of Chansey's ability to wall the vast majority of the metagame allude to its inability to wall things under common conditions? It's true that Chansey is often a team's sole stop to a large number of very dangerous sweepers, but I feel like that supports my argument far more than it supports yours...
I can guarantee that an otherwise poorly made team with one of these "broken walls" would do very poorly against competent players in UU. As I outlined in an earlier post, the standard Giratina-A is actually defeated by quite a few pokemon in UU, including the ubiquitous Kyurem, the amazing stallbreaker Mew, Houndoom, and more. No, team support is far more important than you're giving it credit for. I would even argue that it is built right into the "common battle conditions" aspect.
All of those things are conditional, reversible (or completely preventable in the case of Taunt), easy to predict around, and lend themselves to being set up on. You even use the word "probably" to show that it's not guaranteed to be useful once it comes in.
If Chansey lets things set up on it in exchange for walling things with 4 special attacks, it is a net negative for the team and people saying that Chansey breaks the metagame can't be taken seriously. Chansey is a good defensive pokemon, don't get me wrong. But saying that it's broken because it walls a small subset of pokemon in the tier is the same weak argument that we've been hearing for 5 generations about Chansey and Blissey. It's good at what it does, but its job isn't important or even needed on most teams.
Until it gets a Sub up on your Chansey ;)
Everything in Pokemon is conditional, reversible, or easy to predict around/set up on. We've had Pokemon that can get up three layers of spikes with the greatest of ease, did we let them hang around just because Rapid Spin exists?
And yes, I did use the word "probably" because arguing about a game like Pokemon in certainties is foolish. My overarching point is not that Chansey is the ubermenesch of obese pinkness, but that it can switch into far too much of the metagame with impunity, support the team in significant ways without being too threatened even by the pokemon that are ostensibly supposed to counter it, and continue doing so for a long time due to instant recovery and nature cure. The calculations I posted earlier were meant to support this position.
I'm not sure where you got that it only walls things with 4 special attacks. I outlined a situation earlier where it handily beats CM Raikou, one of the most powerful boosting special attackers in the tier. Oh, this must be one of those strawmen things I've heard about.
Comparisons to Blissey are irrelevant and flawed. Chansey's walling abilities with respect to the power levels found in UU far surpass Blissey's in OU, and really, any other wall in any other tier.
You also mention a point that I had brought up in my own post, the one about momentum. You didn't hear me complaining about Chansey in 4th gen, did you? That's because it was easily manageable due to its physical frailty and the fact that many special set-up sweepers could still blow past it. Chansey as it is now isn't even in the same league; it has the same excellent support options, but it's no longer immediately forced out by anything that has a physical move. It can now brazenly stay in on crazy shit like Tank Rhyperior, with the confidence that it will still have enough HP to come back in and still wall special attackers later. It also means that it can serve as a last-ditch stop against Pokemon who would normally not even care about Chansey, such as DD Kingdra. Its versatility and value to a team is far greater than it ever was...too great, in my opinion.
Actually, we did let them hang around. Deoxys is the only thing that really falls into this category, and it was banned last gen primarily for the dual screening + taunt + sr set. More relevantly, Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D are still OU in this gen. Froslass was made BL last gen because it could also guarantee a kill on top of laying down Spikes. As far as I know, every other spiker has always been legal.
This is a reasonable position to take, except you don't define "far too much of the metagame" which is the only part relevant to something being broken. There is no way you could ever know that is true when we don't have UU usage statistics. Especially considering how incredibly easy it is to beat, and how little it has to threaten most pokemon. That's what I meant when I said you were posting opinions as fact.
CM Raikou is pretty rare, and even then Chansey struggles to win. I don't think strawman means what you think it means. I got the idea that it only walls things with 4 special attacks from experience, since pretty much anything with Taunt or Nasty Plot can get through Chansey...and there is a pretty high number of special attackers that can beat any Chansey one on one. Mismagius, Suicune, Azelf, Togekiss, Sigilyph, Celebi, Mew, just to name a few off the top of my head.
I only compared it to Blissey by saying you're using the same weak reasoning that people have been using for 5 generations about its evolution line. "It can take hits! Now I have to think about defensive threats when building my team? Ban it!" It doesn't just magically sit there walling entire teams like you seem to be letting on, and I think we both know that.
How the heck does Deoxys-D solve Chansey when a) he's vulnerable to toxic (something commonly carried by Chansey) b) his attacks should he have any will do jack against Chansey c) has low HP so he won't be such a fan of Seismic toss and d) its not as if Chansey would stay around long with another staller like Deoxys-D when all what she shines it is basically taking a hit, mostly special, forcing out the attacker while she prepares a wish for the incoming switch in or status the poke switching in on her.
Though I do agree Deoxys-D is a great wall but he still pales in comparison to how much punishment Chansey can take, especially on the special side, and isn't able to pass on full health wishes to his companions prolonging their longevity or in other instances removing status (and note she can also take status attacks well thanks to her Natural Cure which really does make her last much longer than D-D). Though D-D does have good support such as being able to set up screens and hazards. In the end though this is kind of moot IMO since D-D and Chansey are more often than not on the same team so...
This Generation chansey should have been in a way worst position than last gen, the power level in UU incresed and Psyshock was created (an many strong pokes get it), still she easily handle Special Attackers better than last gen. but now stuff like mixed attackers cannot break her thanks to eviolite, then you have the nerfed explosion and boosted wishes and Chaney is, at the very least, twice as powerful than last generation, How is this adjusted to the current UU power level?, if it's to much then she should be banned, again not taking sides, but answer in what part of the defensive rank is chansey?, in a spot where she can easily wall special attackers and week physical ones or just below strong SE physical attackers like heracross and almost no Special one will ever pass her
For the first time in ages, I've been laddering and very nearly met the voting requirements.
Right now, Chansey doesn't bother me, but that's because I carry Trick Rotom which almost always catches it off guard (and usually I can trick an Eviolite to something useless once the Chansey is gone). So it doesn't bother me too much, but if I didn't have that or Durant (since Chansey doesn't carry Flamethrower, Durant can come in on any T-Waveless Chansey) I'd be buggered. I can see why people don't like it though.
I've gotten up to number 20 on the rankings without a Sun or a Hail team so a successful team is possible without them. All the sun sweepers are horrible to face and broken, in my opinion. The ones with Sleep Powder like Lilligant, Victreebel, Tangrowth are so hard to counter, and the notable one without (Sawsbuck) is one of the hardest to counter due to excellent neutral coverage in it's STAB moves (resisted only by Drifblim, Shandera, Shedinja and steel types). The Steel types are handled by Jump Kick. With SD in the last slot, it's so difficult to counter, and it's nearly impossible to LO stall because of Horn Leech (great move). Short of priority, it's so hard to handle. Sawsbuck is the worst of the sun sweepers for me.
Victini needs to go, definitely. V-Create is way OP, it's bulky. SR weak is handled because Hitmontop and Donphan are two very reliable spinners. Kyurem is the same, and really unpredictable. It's near impossible to wall and counter. Without Scizor in the metagame, this thing can just run rampant.
I haven't been keeping up with this thread, but I have seen a couple of mentions of Suicune which I handle again because of Trick Rotom, Haze Milotic on my team. Depending on the set, I can take it down usually.
Also, Wobb is way overpowered, but not enough people use it. Every single time I fight against a Wobb user, I usually lose as long as they're not dumb with it.
Mew, I'm torn on. Everyone seems to run the same two or three Mew sets, that I've seen. However, my Mew set has single handedly won me games (Max HP, Max Def: Roost, CM, Psychic, Aura Sphere) because nobody else uses it and nobody preps for it. I love it, and is probably my favourite Pokemon in UU.
Right now, Chansey doesn't bother me, but that's because I carry Trick Rotom which almost always catches it off guard (and usually I can trick an Eviolite to something useless once the Chansey is gone). So it doesn't bother me too much, but if I didn't have that or Durant (since Chansey doesn't carry Flamethrower, Durant can come in on any T-Waveless Chansey) I'd be buggered. I can see why people don't like it though.
I've gotten up to number 20 on the rankings without a Sun or a Hail team so a successful team is possible without them. All the sun sweepers are horrible to face and broken, in my opinion. The ones with Sleep Powder like Lilligant, Victreebel, Tangrowth are so hard to counter, and the notable one without (Sawsbuck) is one of the hardest to counter due to excellent neutral coverage in it's STAB moves (resisted only by Drifblim, Shandera, Shedinja and steel types). The Steel types are handled by Jump Kick. With SD in the last slot, it's so difficult to counter, and it's nearly impossible to LO stall because of Horn Leech (great move). Short of priority, it's so hard to handle. Sawsbuck is the worst of the sun sweepers for me.
Victini needs to go, definitely. V-Create is way OP, it's bulky. SR weak is handled because Hitmontop and Donphan are two very reliable spinners. Kyurem is the same, and really unpredictable. It's near impossible to wall and counter. Without Scizor in the metagame, this thing can just run rampant.
I haven't been keeping up with this thread, but I have seen a couple of mentions of Suicune which I handle again because of Trick Rotom, Haze Milotic on my team. Depending on the set, I can take it down usually.
Also, Wobb is way overpowered, but not enough people use it. Every single time I fight against a Wobb user, I usually lose as long as they're not dumb with it.
Mew, I'm torn on. Everyone seems to run the same two or three Mew sets, that I've seen. However, my Mew set has single handedly won me games (Max HP, Max Def: Roost, CM, Psychic, Aura Sphere) because nobody else uses it and nobody preps for it. I love it, and is probably my favourite Pokemon in UU.
Taunt, Knock Off(i wonder why everyone underestimate the potential this neat thing have), Recover, Filler and as a bonus Mew is here too to support my team
After losing Evo Stone Chansey goes from Nearly as bulky as Blissey into slightly and sometime a lot less bulky than Blissey which is awesome
The same dual combination set i am using to fuck every wall in OU in round 2 and give me a fairly healthy winning record those time return in UU in its former glory
And chansey need 4 Seismic to beat D-D. D-D need 4 PP to beat off chansey's attack and it cant do things later on.
Granted it takes long and any good player will not stay in for long but thats where your 4th moveslot shines. Seriously with this duo i never had real problem with Chansey.
As for whats crazy annoying, Wobb and Victini takes the cake.
The power of sun is great with this two guys around one to handle various things and one to nuke anything to death.
So far though im not seeing any things broken enough. Maybe as a suspect i choose mew, Deo(lol joking. I mean Wobb) and Victini.
Also note how D-D and Chansery is not simmilar at all i dont think ill be good at using chansey anytime soon though. The monotonic movepool and only seismic issue really make me dont like it(which is why i prefer chansey in OU and maybe Ubers). On the other side D-D is more versatile in its supporting capability and more fitting to my playstyle
Not to mention the previously high profile annoying poke for D-D is not seen much compared to PO server(in my experience). Im talking about that Confagrigus here.
After losing Evo Stone Chansey goes from Nearly as bulky as Blissey into slightly and sometime a lot less bulky than Blissey which is awesome
The same dual combination set i am using to fuck every wall in OU in round 2 and give me a fairly healthy winning record those time return in UU in its former glory
And chansey need 4 Seismic to beat D-D. D-D need 4 PP to beat off chansey's attack and it cant do things later on.
Granted it takes long and any good player will not stay in for long but thats where your 4th moveslot shines. Seriously with this duo i never had real problem with Chansey.
As for whats crazy annoying, Wobb and Victini takes the cake.
The power of sun is great with this two guys around one to handle various things and one to nuke anything to death.
So far though im not seeing any things broken enough. Maybe as a suspect i choose mew, Deo(lol joking. I mean Wobb) and Victini.
Also note how D-D and Chansery is not simmilar at all i dont think ill be good at using chansey anytime soon though. The monotonic movepool and only seismic issue really make me dont like it(which is why i prefer chansey in OU and maybe Ubers). On the other side D-D is more versatile in its supporting capability and more fitting to my playstyle
Not to mention the previously high profile annoying poke for D-D is not seen much compared to PO server(in my experience). Im talking about that Confagrigus here.
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