Just another Drizzle team

[Krasnopesky]

Introduction​

Hi all, this is my Drizzle team that I have been having decent success with, reaching the top 20 on Smogon with a rating over 1400 at one point in time.

The first goal of this team is usually to win the common weather battles that seem to occur this generation. From that point the aim of this team is to slowly wear the opponent’s team down with entry hazards and safe switching/recovery, keeping most team members alive, in order to set up a sweep with either Toxicroak and Whishcash. There are usually one, sometimes two key pokemon that can counter these set-up sweepers so once they are finally removed it is time to set-up. Finally my fast revenge killer Tornadus cleans up any pokemon left over towards the end of the battle.

The team relies heavily upon defensive synergy to check the opposing team's offensive threats while it wears them down, as well as being able to heal itself and not worry too much about status or entry hazards (with the unfortunate exception of spikes).

Any suggestions you have about improving the team would be greatly appreciated.

Team Building

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1. Whiscash has always been one of my favourite pokemon and when I realised the potential he had with his dreamworld ability I had to make a team with him as a centre piece.

2. For Whiscash's ability to work to its full potential Drizzle needed to be on the field, which required one obvious team member.

3. One of the best new pokemon in five gen that could provide multiple rolls for the team: wall, support, attacker. Ferrothorn is also a good check to opposing Drizzle/Rain Dance teams.

4. A fast sweeper was needed to deal with a variety of threats and Starmie proved to be an excellent choice, with rain boosted Hydro Pumps and Thunders demolishing anything foolish enough to stay in.

5. I noticed that Conkeldurr would have a field day with 3/4 of my team members and he was very popular around the time the team was built. I also wanted another member to stall and a rapid spinner as Starmie ran three attacks + recover. Tentacruel provided all these attributes and more.

6. I noticed the team seemed very dragon weak and lacked a counter to popular sandstorm sweepers, so Skarmory was chosen to fill these rolls and provide phasing support too.

6. Tentacruel wasn't pulling its weight at checking Conkeldurr (bulk Up + Guts + Payback = dead jellyfish) and was making the team too stall orientated. I wanted another bulky sweeper to work with Whiscash and Toxicroak proved to be an excellent addition to the team.

7. Starmie's weakness to the two most popular pokemon in the metagame was causing it to be a burden. A suitable replacement for a quick sweeper was found in Tornadus who hit even harder then Starmie could and easily destroyed Tyranitar and Ferrothorn as well as most pokemon in existance.

The Team
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Politoed
@ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP - 252 SpA - 8 Spe
Nature: Modest
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Perish Song/ Hidden Power Electric
​

As with every 5th Gen OU drizzle team Politoed uses its awesome ability to keep enternal rain on the field. My particular politoed is designed to withstand powerful attacks and KO the opposing pokemon or heavily damage a switch in, much like bulky choice band TTar is used for. For example Modest Choice Specs Hydro Pump will 2HKO all types of TTar in a sandstorm, will outspeed most and with 248 HP will survive every attack being thrown back at it, with the exception of Adamant Choice Band Stone Edge. It acts similarly towards other weather starters with or without rain, 2HKOing many types of Ninetails while surviving an unboosted Solarbeam in the sun and 1HKOing Hippowdon and Abomasnow with Hydro Pump and Focus Blast respectfully. The 8 Speed EVs are there mainly to outspeed 0 speed Breloom and kill it with ice beam before it can use spore.

The first three attacks provide excellent coverage, with Hydro Pump being extremely powerful in the rain, hitting many pokemon that resist it very hard. Focus Blast 2HKOs most Ferrothorn and 1HKOs even max specially defensive Tyranitar in sand provided stealth rock is up. Ice Beam rounds the combo out hitting dragons and grass types hard. The last move is a filler, without Hidden Power Electric bulky types of Gyarados wall it pretty well but without Perish Song it can be difficult to deal with some popular bulky set up sweepers like Jirachi.

Politoed can also be used as a stall breaker being able to surprise stall teams and 1HKO or 2HKO many common stall based pokemon not named Blissey or Chancey with one of its three attacking moves. Generally Politoed will net me at least one if not two kills and is very useful at letting me switch in one of my sweepers for free by sacrificing itself in the lategame. It also prevents many bulky set up pokemon by either hitting them very hard before they get too many boosts or by using Perish Song to force them out

Politoed is the one member of my team that is affected by toxic but due to its nature of coming in blasting off one or two attacks and then leaving it doesn't matter as much. Similarly Politoed doesn't particularly care too much about being burnt or paralysed. Like most of my team Politoed is not a fan of spikes, but does not worry too much about toxic spikes or stealth rocks.

Skarmory
@ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP - 248 Def - 8 Spe
Nature: Impish
- Stealth Rocks
- Roost
- Whirlwind
- Brave bird
​

Defensive Skarmory is quite simply a beast. In the rain it can easily survive and roost off almost all physical attacks coming its way even if they are super effective. It is very reliable at getting stealth rocks up and shuffling the opponent’s team about at will. Its Brave bird attack is also very useful, letting me murder Breloom and Virizion which can sometimes cause my team troubles. If a sandstorm team manages to win the weather battle Skarmory is very important at checking/countering most key sandstorm sweepers including Garchomp, Excadrill, Landorus and Tyranitar (without fire blast).

Skarmory also provides important defensive synergy for the team; being immune to ground attacks that can cause this team problems, having a 4X resistance to grass types that hit Whiscash hard and taking physical dragon attacks that can easily destroy 2/3 of my team. Although it would be nice to give it more special bulk, most of the time it needs all the physical bulk it can get to survive 2+ rock attacks from the aforementioned threats.

Skarmory generally does not care about status, although getting burnt can be annoying in some instances. It is also the one member of my team who doesn't mind spikes, or any entry hazards for that matter, making it an excellent defensive pivot for the team.

Toxicroak
@ Leftovers
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 244 HP - 252 Atk - 12 SpD
Nature: Adamant
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Substitute
​

Toxicroak is one half of my set-up sweepers and he is a threatening roadblock for many teams after one or two Bulk Ups. He can set up on a large variety of powerful pokemon in the rain including Conkeldurr, Breloom, Scizor and even some varieties of Gliscor despite it being weak to both stabs. Essentially after a few Bulk Ups all he has to worry about are Pyschic moves (which will often be used by just one pokemon on the average team) and extremely powerful special attacks such as choice specs draco meteors from Lati@s that can be dealt with through sucker punch.

The EVs provide maximum attack and bulk while allowing Toxicroak to take strong attacks and hit back hard, all the while recovering with Drain Punch, Dry Skin and Leftovers. Sucker Punch provides a valuable form of priority and allows toxicroak to defeat psychic type pokemon before they can destroy him with their 4 times super effective STAB attacks. Finally substitute is there to enable toxicroak to set up on a variety of slow pokemon that would try and burn or paralyse him as well as stopping leech seed from the ever present Ferrothorn and allowing toxicroak to deal with powerful threats through a combination of Drain Punch followed by Sucker Punch from behind his substitute.

Toxicroak’s immunity to water attacks and resistance to grass attacks has good defensive synergy with my other set up sweeper Whiscash and the rest of the team. Toxicroak has the added benefit of being able to defeat opposing rain teams almost single handily. Toxicroak also offers an immunity to toxic and absorbs toxic spikes for politoed. Toxicroak does not like having his weather changed, but it can often be a fatal move by a sand team to do so, as switching in Tyranitar on Toxicroak will often result in 2 Bulk Ups, meaning Sand’s most popular dangerous threats; Garchomp, Excadrill, Landorus and Gliscor, will have a hard time defeating him barring a critical hit or an untimely miss against sand veil.

Whiscash
@ Life Orb
Ability: Hydration
EVs:148 HP - 252 Atk - 108 Spe
Nature: Adamant
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Rest
​

The other half of my set-up sweepers, my team started around setting up Whiscash to sweep after his counters are gone. Once all the opponents grass types are gone and powerful dragons are worn down enough Whiscash can often set up and sweep with great ease. Water/Ground pokemon have always been my favourite type and with the majority of weather being either sandstorm or rain in this metagame this type combination is more useful than it has ever been before, as Water/ground types can abuse the effects of the two most common weathers.

Whiscash’s ability Hydration enables it to automatically rid itself of status at the end of every turn as long as rain is on the field. This lets Whiscash actually be useful despite its rather underwhelming base stats, meaning rest is a 100% recover move that rids status with no drawbacks. This combined with Whiscash’s excellent typing, decent bulk and Dragon Dance means Whiscash can tank hits from numerous threats and set up for a sweep. It also means Whiscash set ups with ease on many defensive pokemon as their status attempts fail and their weak attacks are rested off.

Waterfall and Earthquake provide powerful dual stab attacks as Whiscash needs all the power he can get. Life Orb is chosen over leftovers as it enables more 1HKOs at 2+ attack. Although there are many pokemon resistant to both attacks, namely flying dragons and grass types, Whiscash will rarely be beating either of those even having attacks that can hit them neutrally. Return is another attack I have looked into, but the power drop from Earthquake is very noticeable against many pokemon and Ferrothorn and Jellicent completely wall it.

108 Speed EVs allows Whiscash to outspeed Jolly ScarfTar and positive nature base 115 speed pokemon after two Dragon Dances, which helps it substantially against enemies such as Starmie, Gengar, Lati@s and others in the 108-115 speed bracket. Max attack is needed due to Whiscash’s low base attack. The rest of the EVs go into maximising Whiscash’s overall bulk, while ensuring Blissey does not 4HKO with seismic toss factoring in leftovers recovery.

Part of the success of this team is the wide range of opponents that both Whiscash and Toxicroak can set up on and the fact that both of them can set up on common counters to the other. This means that my opponent can often protect a counter to one of these sweepers but not both and with clever moves a sweep can be set up once they're down. The pokemon that both are weak to, namely very strong sweepers such as flying dragons are dealt with by the rest of the team, who can collectively tank their attacks and damage them back.

Ferrothorn
@ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP - 48 Def - 208 SpD (0 speed IVs)
Nature: Sassy
- Leech Seed
- Spikes
- Gyro Ball
- Protect
​

A typical Ferrothorn set, it gladly absorbs most special attacks, many physical attacks and sometimes even weak fire attacks in the rain. It checks Lati@s sets that can otherwise cause this team large amounts of pain and kills outrage 'trapped' dragons with its powerful Gyro Ball. I originally ran a Ferrothorn set with curse instead of spikes, as it can sweep quite well once it’s counters are removed but I found that spikes were a lot more useful to the team in general as there are often multiple counters to Ferrothorn on a team.

Ferrothorn is used to take obvious paralyse attempts as this stops it getting burnt from a random boil over and powers up Gyro Ball. Protect allows Ferrothorn to have a lot more staying power, being able to heal 36% of its health with leach seed while only taking one hit. Without Ferrothorn, Lati@s can demolish this team with its powerful Draco-meteors and other dragons can set up and outrage with only Skarmory able to phase them out.

Unfortunately, having two steel types on my team means that Magnezone is a very dangerous threat, as are fire type attacks. However Drizzle goes a long way to negate fire type attacks and Whiscash can deal with almost all fire attacks in the rain and uses Magnezone as set up fodder.

Tornadus
@ Choice Specs
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 Def - 252 SpA - 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
- Hurricane
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power Ice/Water
- U-turn
​

Tornadus is used as an all-purpose revenge killer, wall breaker and late game sweeper in my team. The EVs are standard, providing maximum speed and power while letting Tornadus switch into stealth rock 5 times. A Choice specs Hurricane hits ridiculously hard and has 100% accuracy under rain, it 1HKOs a large portion of the metagame with stealth rocks up, while Focus Blast rounds out the coverage on Steel and Rock types. Hidden Power Water eases prediction against the many threats weak to both ice and water being able to 1HKO most flying/ground types, while the common steel switch in to ice attacks take a fair chunk of damage from Hidden Power Water in the rain. Hurricane can get the KO on most other Hidden Power Ice targets anyway, provided stealth rock is up. Finally U-turn can be useful to if Rain isn’t up and you don’t want to risk a miss from Focus Blast or Hurricane to gain momentum, but it is mostly a filler.

Tornadus is facing stiff competition with Thunderus and/or Starmie for its spot on the team. All three pokemon can perform adequately in this position, but I find that Tornadus’ brute strength without any setup is most valuable. All three are however rather lacking in bulk and are susceptible to priority attacks, so any commentary/suggestions for this spot on the team is welcomed.

Past Members

Tentacruel
@ leftovers
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 252 HP - 120 Def - 120 SpD - 16 Spe
Nature: Calm
- Rapid Spin
- Rain Dance
- Toxic Spikes
- Boil Over
​

Tentacruel got the boot as it made my team too defensive orientated. It did very minimal damage and made me reliant upon entry hazards on a team with no spin blocker. Furthermore although it could take hits from a few threats, it has no reliable forms of recovery and once it tanked an opponent’s initial attack it was often set up fodder.

Starmie
@ leftovers/life orb
Ability: Natural cure
EVs: 4 HP - 252 SpA - 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
- Rapid Spin
- Surf/Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt/Thunder
- Recover/Ice Beam
​

Starmie works well on this team with two exceptions: The top two pokemon in the metagame, Tyranitar and Ferrothorn, trap it or wall it respectfully. Tyranitar can switch in on anything other than life orb hydro pump, change the weather and pursuit it to death, whereas Starmie can simply do nothing to Ferrothorn in the rain even with hidden power fire.

​

Threat list

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to come

 

[spweasel]

This team looks really good (and vaguely similar to the team I've been working on). Take everything I say with a grain of salt, though, since I fully admit I'm not the greatest player ever - doubly so at this time in the morning:

1) Are 8/12 Speed IVs on Politoed really enough to outspeed that many Brelooms? I thought that at least 20 Speed on Breloom was the minimum on the common sets. I'd probably throw those EVs in one of your defenses instead.

2) Speaking of Breloom, I would imagine that a Breloom invested heavily in Speed is pretty annoying, since the only things you have that outspeed it are Tornadus and a boosted Whiscash (who I can't imagine likes seeing Seed Bomb Breloom very much even with a DD under its belt).

Outside of switching a Pokemon out completely or running Scarf on something (I'm a big fan of Scarftoed, for what it's worth), there's not a lot you can do, though. The slower Breloom sets seem to be more popular lately anyways, so it probably isn't going to come up that often.

3) Opposing Starmie also look somewhat problematic. I ran some numbers, and a Timid Life Orb Starmie with Thunderbolt and Surf OHKOs Tornadus and Skarmory, does 60-70% on Politoed, and does 82-96% on Whiscash (and if they run Hydro Pump he's screwed). Toxicroak isn't particularly fond of those rare variations with Psychic, especially since Sucker Punch won't OHKO Starmie at full health without a Bulk Up already up.

Nothing really needs changing (unless you want to find room for Rotom-W in there somewhere), but I just thought I'd mention it to make sure you keep your Toxicroak and/or Ferrothorn in good health if you see a Starmie on Team Preview.

4) For Tornadus, have you tried the Life Orb set with Hammer Arm and Taunt over Focus Blast and U-Turn? Hammer Arm gives you better accuracy and makes Blissey a trivial kill, while priority Taunt is just pure evil.

5) How's your game against Sun teams? You only really mentioned them in passing, but I know first hand how much they can suck if something goes wrong (missed Hydro Pump, getting hit by some Ninetales' Hypnosis, Volcarona managing to get a QD off in the sun, etc).

6) I personally like LO Starmie more than Tornadus, but they both have their pros and cons. I run Timid with Rapid Spin, Surf, Thunder, and Ice Beam, and it outspeeds many threats and OHKOs with its amazing coverage. Rapid Spin is just the icing on the cake, taking out hazards when Starmie's almost gone. Tyranitar isn't great to get caught by, but Surf will still do a pretty good dent in him in a sandstorm (50% give or take depending on whether they run max SpD).

Then again, I also run a team with more Tyrantitar/Ferrothorn counters, so I don't really need Starmie to counter them.

 

[Krasnopesky]

Hey spweasel, first off thanks for the long reply I appreciate it.

1) Are 8/12 Speed IVs on Politoed really enough to outspeed that many Brelooms? I thought that at least 20 Speed on Breloom was the minimum on the common sets. I'd probably throw those EVs in one of your defenses instead.

It's all about the speed creep isn't it? You never know how much to put in, but I feel that anything over 8/12 is overkill and in the end I still play this particular Politoed as if its the slowest pokemon in the game.

2) Speaking of Breloom, I would imagine that a Breloom invested heavily in Speed is pretty annoying, since the only things you have that outspeed it are Tornadus and a boosted Whiscash (who I can't imagine likes seeing Seed Bomb Breloom very much even with a DD under its belt).

Outside of switching a Pokemon out completely or running Scarf on something (I'm a big fan of Scarftoed, for what it's worth), there's not a lot you can do, though. The slower Breloom sets seem to be more popular
lately anyways, so it probably isn't going to come up that often.

I have never found Breloom to be a big problem, sure it almost always sleeps a pokemon but i just choose the least valuable pokemon based on my opponents team and then either set up on Breloom with Toxicroak, or kill it with skarmory.

3) Opposing Starmie also look somewhat problematic. I ran some numbers, and a Timid Life Orb Starmie with Thunderbolt and Surf OHKOs Tornadus and Skarmory, does 60-70% on Politoed, and does 82-96% on Whiscash (and if they run Hydro Pump he's screwed). Toxicroak isn't particularly fond of those rare variations with Psychic, especially since Sucker Punch won't OHKO Starmie at full health without a Bulk Up already up.

Nothing really needs changing (unless you want to find room for Rotom-W in there somewhere), but I just thought I'd mention it to make sure you keep your Toxicroak and/or Ferrothorn in good health if you see a Starmie on Team Preview.

You're correct in saying starmie can be a problem, but as you say it is never a problem with Ferrothorn around and starmie often recieves enough residual damage for Toxicroak to come in on a water attack and finish it with sucker punch.

4) For Tornadus, have you tried the Life Orb set with Hammer Arm and Taunt over Focus Blast and U-Turn? Hammer Arm gives you better accuracy and makes Blissey a trivial kill, while priority Taunt is just pure evil.

I haven't tried that set yet so I'll give it a go. It sounds promising.

5) How's your game against Sun teams? You only really mentioned them in passing, but I know first hand how much they can suck if something goes wrong (missed Hydro Pump, getting hit by some Ninetales' Hypnosis, Volcarona managing to get a QD off in the sun, etc).

With sun teams I either destroy them or they destroy me. Whiscash can often come in on the sun team's rapid spinner and get to 2+ in which case they have to switch to Ninetails to change the weather and either get KOed by Earthquake or lose a fire type in the process. But if the sun team works around this strategy a growth boosted venusuar can wreck havoc if Politoed is down. Volcarona is painful but can be dealt with if Rain is on the field.

6) I personally like LO Starmie more than Tornadus, but they both have their pros and cons. I run Timid with Rapid Spin, Surf, Thunder, and Ice Beam, and it outspeeds many threats and OHKOs with its amazing coverage. Rapid Spin is just the icing on the cake, taking out hazards when Starmie's almost gone. Tyranitar isn't great to get caught by, but Surf will still do a pretty good dent in him in a sandstorm (50% give or take depending on whether they run max SpD).

Then again, I also run a team with more Tyrantitar/Ferrothorn counters, so I don't really need Starmie to counter them.

I have been tossing up whether to keep Tornadus or go to Starmie, I'll have to try out both of them in order to decide in the long run.

 

[spweasel]

It's all about the speed creep isn't it? You never know how much to put in, but I feel that anything over 8/12 is overkill and in the end I still play this particular Politoed as if its the slowest pokemon in the game.

Breloom is one of those Pokemon that's highly unlikely to invest the full 252 in HP since it lands him on a non-optimal number, which make 236 HP, 252 Defense/Attack the most common variations that don't invest heavily in Speed. And since Breloom benefits from even a little extra speed, those extra 20 will go there most of the time.

So yeah, when I played around with bulky Specstoed (because, as you said, he doesn't benefit that much from Speed), I just dumped the extra EVs in Defense.

I have never found Breloom to be a big problem, sure it almost always sleeps a pokemon but i just choose the least valuable pokemon based on my opponents team and then either set up on Breloom with Toxicroak, or kill it with skarmory.

I'd be cautious when switching in Skarmory, since Focus Punch will still do around 50% damage, while Breloom can just switch out without any damage on him. Facade variants will OHKO Tornadus after Stealth Rock, while Toxicroak takes 65-75% (which I believe is enough to win 1 vs. 1 against Toxicroak regardless of what strategy they employ, but I could be wrong). Then again, if you are facing the Facade variant, at least you don't need to worry about Seed Bomb hitting Whiscash.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I'm concerned with how you deal with Magnezones in genreal and in particular on opposing rain teams. Any Magnezone is able to switch in and remove Skarmory thereby removing a major pivot from your team. This would be fine except that if its a SubCharge set it also sets up to +6 SpA on Ferrothrom and proceeds to OHKO a second member of your team after dispatching Ferrothorn (The rain based SubCharge set is fairly quick and adds a ton of bulk, Ferro requires two Power Whips to break its Subs so basically need a lot of luck to not be set up on). If it switches in on anything except a Leech Seed you're in trouble as it can outspeed Poltitoed and kill it (iirc), and I beleive it can do the same to Whiscash (the rain set runs Flash Cannon and at +6 it will kill) forcing you to sacrifice Tornadus or Toxicroak to break the sub and allow the other to kill it, meaning that a SubCharge Magnezone has just taken out half your team, your defensive pivots and a sweeper (also if Tornadus's Focus Blast misses your screwed).

 

[Krasnopesky]

I'm concerned with how you deal with Magnezones in genreal and in particular on opposing rain teams.

Opposing rain teams are cleaned up through stealth rock, Ferrothorn and Toxicroak. Unless the opposing rain team happens to have the exact counters to those pokemon I am usually fine.

Magnezones are indeed annoying if they are played well, but they are usually too predictable to be a worry. Team preview helps a lot in this regard as I can work around getting trapped without leach seeding it with Ferrothorn.

Having said that, I have considered using shed shell on one if not both steels, any suggestions as to which one would be more suited?

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

As Skarm has much more reliable recovery as only requires a single turn to set up its hazard it is likel a better candidate for Shed Shell.

 

[Razza]

Hey nice team love the dd whiscash and congrats on the high peak on smogon which is a tough server :P

On politoed i run an almost identical set and he really does pack a punch however in place of hp electric I recommend hp grass it hits most of he same threats except gyarados. Also if you use hp electric tyranitar can switch in take minimal damage change the weather then pursuit you for large damage as he has you trapped. Hp grass also deals with quagsire gastrodon and swampert who are otherwise hard to kill especially gastrodon if he gets a storm drain boost.
Ferrothorn whiscash and skarmoury seem fine and on toxicroak I would recommend 20 speed Evs due to speed creep to outspeed other toxicroak and ensure you can sub up to prevent crits as when your both at +6 whoever wins will generally sweep the rest of the team.
Also on tornadus I think hp ice makes 30 speed ivs which loses speed ties with other genies and forces a tie with base 110's although I'm not sure.
As your thinking of replacing tornadus I have a prime candidate who does very well on my rain team

Deoxys-s @life orb
Trait: pressure
Nature: naive (+spe -spdef)
Evs: 252 spe/ 252 spa
- superpower
- thunder
- ice beam
- psycho boost

This guy hits over 500 speed and can outspeed and Ohko scarfchomp with ice beam as they will stay in most of the time expecting to outspeed you. Even +1. Base 100s are outspeeded and thunder deals nice damage with 100% accuracy under rain. Ice beam takes care of dragons and Gliscor and landorus, superpower destroys Ttar ohkoing most and also dealing good Damage to blissey 2hkoing although chansey may be sligtky bulkier. Psycho boost is a general hardhitter taking out anything that's causing issues. With spikes and sr this guy is a phenomenal late game cleaner upper and when everything is weak he just sweeps, even midgame he can sweep if you have a few layers of spikes and sr up as 2hkos become ohkos.
GL :)

 

[Krasnopesky]

Hey nice team love the dd whiscash and congrats on the high peak on smogon which is a tough server :P

Deoxys-s @life orb
Trait: pressure
Nature: naive (+spe -spdef)
Evs: 252 spe/ 252 spa
- superpower
- thunder
- ice beam
- psycho boost

Thanks for the compliment =). I will try out the listed set, sounds good, especially the out speeding scarfchomp part.

 

[Krasnopesky]

I tried out Deo-S but wasn't too impressed. I felt that against certain threats he just didn't have the same hitting power that Tornadus does.

I have been trying an alternative Tornadus set though as follows:

Tornadus
@ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 Atk - 252 SpA - 252 Spe
Nature: Naive
- Hurricane
- Hammer Arm
- Hidden Power Ice/Water
- taunt

Again I am not to sure about it as the coverage move Hammer Arm doesn't appear to have enough power to deal with the bulky steel threats that Choice Specs Focus Blast provides.

 

[Paradoxus]

Try the Double Status set on Politoed, but use lum berry instead of Leftovers. It is highly effective as Politoed won't die in one hit.

The last thing you need is Ferrothorn and Skarmory in the same team. Replace Skarmory with Jellicent, as the FerroCent combo is amazing in the Rain.

Because im somewhat of a Grammar Nazi, capitilize the L in Leftovers on Toxicroak.

I give you props for using Whiscash, I love that guy, but replace Life Orb over Leftovers, as Rest lets it shrug off Life Orb damage.

Power Whip is kind of useless for such a defensive Pokemon like Ferrothorn. Protect is better for scouting and stalling.

Other than that, great team, good job!

 

[Krasnopesky]

Awesome suggestions Paradoxus and thanks for the rate.

Although I rather like Specstoed and my set has substantial bulk I shall try the double status as it may help my sweepers a lot more.

I haven't tried Jellicent very much so I'll give it a go alongside protect on Ferrothorn as that gives Ferro a lot more bulk to survive dragons.

I have never really considered Life Orb on Whiscash, but now that i think about it, it could provide some much needed power with little drawbacks.

Oh and finally I am the king of Grammar Nazi's, being an English teacher and all lol, so thanks for the correction =).

 

[spweasel]

Power Whip is a standard on Ferrothorn sets for a reason - you really need the damage, especially when Gyro Ball is a blank slot against all slow Pokemon. If you really want to replace one of the attacks, switch Gyro Ball for Thunder Wave (or Protect if you must). Thunder Wave allows you to cripple many of his counters, and indeed switching my Breloom into a Thunder Wave is one of my worst fears when facing a Ferrothorn.

The problem with Life Orb on setup sweepers is that it seriously limits the number of Pokemon you can take out before being forced to either switch out or heal - something I learned the hard way when trying out Gyarados. Whiscash should be better because of Rest, but you might end up in a situation where you the choice means either wasting another turn using DD or Resting during the middle of a sweep. It's certainly a valid option that deserves consideration, but it certainly has some pretty big drawbacks. I'd probably stick with Leftovers, though actually you could use Mystic Water if you want a damage boost.

 

[Paradoxus]

Gyro Bal is essential as every Pokemon with over 250 (not a clue what the exact number is) it does 200 damage. Power Whip sucks because of it's low accuracy, especially on Ferrothorn. Thunder Wave does nothing for Ferrothorn, as his team already has pokemon with a large amount of speed (Whiscash after a boost). While Gyro Ball doesn't have the best coverage, what it does have is the ability to mess up any Pokemon with DD,RP, or Agility. The only slow Pokemon Ferrothorn has trouble with is Reuniclus, which half of his team destroys already. Lets face it, even after a Dragon Dance, Whiscash is pretty weak, especially with the defensive EVs it gave it, so Life Orb gives it an amazing boost in power. Mystic Water is completely useless as you can Rest off Life Orb damage, something Gyarados cannot do, thats why it is more viable on Whiscash. So if you are cautious, Life Orb's "recoil" won't be a big factor. Using a recovery move isn't bad at all, with Hydration Rest is like Recover but twice the amount.

EDIT: I just thought of replacing Choice Scarf instead of Choice Specs, since you said it was a wallbreaker and a revenge-killer.

 

[lostaurora]

Power Whip is a standard on Ferrothorn sets for a reason - you really need the damage, especially when Gyro Ball is a blank slot against all slow Pokemon. If you really want to replace one of the attacks, switch Gyro Ball for Thunder Wave (or Protect if you must). Thunder Wave allows you to cripple many of his counters, and indeed switching my Breloom into a Thunder Wave is one of my worst fears when facing a Ferrothorn.

I agree with this. Don't use Gyro Ball as your only attacking option - it has half the PP, worse coverage, and less reliablility. Thunder Wave really should be considered over it if you're going to keep Skarmory - Pokemon that would otherwise switch in with impunity can't do so anymore. Also, @ the above poster, Gyro Ball maxes out at 150 BP, which is only 25% more than a Power Whip.

Power Whip is essential in taking out the bulky waters that you're going to be switching Ferrothorn into, which won't fear Gyro Ball at all. It's especially superior if you keep Skarmory, because then Skarm can deal with the boosting physical sweepers and Ferrothorn can tank opposing powered-up water moves and Thunders. If you go with Jellicent, you should probably switch Ferrothorn to a more physically defensive version to deal with Dragons, and keep Gyro Ball. Bottom line is, don't use Ferrothorn without Power Whip.

Life Orb on Whiscash sounds like a good idea, though. Its poor base Attack means that it'll really appreciate the 1.3x boost in power, and it's aided by the ever-useful HydraRest.

I also do suggest that you keep testing the mixed LO Tornadus. Hammer Arm is a lot more reliable than Focus Blast in taking out Blissey and more importantly, Tyranitar, which can secure you a win if you can get rain up without interference. Although it sounds stupid, you should consider Sharp Beak, because most of the time you'll only be spamming Hurricane anyway, and you're trading a 7.7% loss in Hurricane power for 10% extra HP every time you use it. Because Tornadus doesn't enjoy recoil due to SR stripping away 25% health every time it switches in, it's a viable alternative if you find yourself mostly spamming Hurricane (which is likely.)

 

[spweasel]

Gyro Bal is essential as every Pokemon with over 250 (not a clue what the exact number is) it does 200 damage.

Assuming minimum Speed on Ferrothorn, it requires 240 Speed to become maxed out, at which point it is 25% better than Power Whip. For reference, that means anything slower than an uninvested Garchomp will not take full damage from it.

Power Whip sucks because of it's low accuracy, especially on Ferrothorn.

I'm not sure what you mean by "especially on Ferrothorn". Ferrothorn is bulky enough that a miss matters far less than it would on an offensive Pokemon. Yes, 80% accuracy is pretty bad, but running out of PP or being outwalled by bulky Waters is worse.

Thunder Wave does nothing for Ferrothorn, as his team already has pokemon with a large amount of speed (Whiscash after a boost).

Paralyzing the opponent's non-priority Taunter makes setting up one at least one DD with Whiscash much, much easier. Anything that Politoed outspeeds is often a free kill later down the road. Toxicroak absolutely loves being able to get the first hit in. It makes Ferrothorn live longer due to full paralysis. Opposing Dragon Dancers and Choice Scarfers are much less scary when brought back down to a reasonable Speed.

Yup, Thunder Wave does nothing for this team.

While Gyro Ball doesn't have the best coverage, what it does have is the ability to mess up any Pokemon with DD,RP, or Agility.

It seems to me that most common setup sweepers pack a strong Fighting/Fire move and/or resist Steel, which kinda hurts that plan. Ferrothorn is so incredibly common in this metagame that most Pokemon that would otherwise struggle against him run counters for him.

The only slow Pokemon Ferrothorn has trouble with is Reuniclus, which half of his team destroys already.

I'm curious how exactly non-Power Whip Ferrothorn deals with, well, pretty much any bulky Water from Quagsire to Vaporeon. You'll be burned by Scald, outhealed, and worn down. Sure, you'll probably have the time to set up your hazards and get out, but at that point Ferrothorn is pretty much crippled.

Lets face it, even after a Dragon Dance, Whiscash is pretty weak, especially with the defensive EVs it gave it, so Life Orb gives it an amazing boost in power. Mystic Water is completely useless as you can Rest off Life Orb damage, something Gyarados cannot do, thats why it is more viable on Whiscash. So if you are cautious, Life Orb's "recoil" won't be a big factor. Using a recovery move isn't bad at all, with Hydration Rest is like Recover but twice the amount.

A good measure of a setup sweeper is the number of turns it takes to set up and sweep. Life Orb adds to that number by making you need to Rest more, but can subtract a turn from the time it takes to set up. Leftovers helps prevent you from needing to take Rests, but you'll probably need an extra turn of Dragon Dancing to sweep.

Mystic Water is the middle ground between the two - even if you start a sweep at 20% HP, you won't need to stop unless something can survive an attack, and it also means your primary STAB is noticeably stronger.

I'm not saying that Mystic Water is necessarily the best option, but I would seriously consider it if you aren't sticking to Lefties.

EDIT: I just thought of replacing Choice Scarf instead of Choice Specs, since you said it was a wallbreaker and a revenge-killer.

Tornadus makes a lousy Scarf holder, since it only really gains the Speed to counter other Scarf users. It's too narrow a category to lose 1/3 of your damage output.

And yes, I got ninja'd.

 

[Paradoxus]

You are assuming way to many things, like Scald burning, a Pokemon being under 240 Spe which is incredibly uncommon, and Thunder Wave making you immobile. You don't take damage from LO unless you attack, and Whiscash should probably be Resting by the time it is at 20% health, not attacking. Mystic Water isn't middle ground because when I tested this team, I found myself spamming Earthquake much more than Waterfall as it gets much better coverage. Scarf users are actually a big counter to this team as most Scarfed Dragon and Fighting types will wreck this team. Gyro Ball is better because for such a defensive Pokemon like Ferrothorn, you want as much power as possible so you can actually nab some KOs. Power Whip's accuracy is a bad thing for any Pokemon, regardless of if they are a defensive or offensive Pokemon. But whatever, if you don't want to listen to the analysis on the forums, that's fine by me.

EDIT: Replace Leftovers with Black Sludge on Toxicroak.

 

[spweasel]

You are assuming way to many things, like Scald burning

Two Scalds have over a 50% chance of burning, while your Gyro Balls are doing pathetic damage against my Quagsire/Vaporeon/whatever. Even if it takes me 4 or more Scalds to burn you (24% chance), I'm still not exactly worried about you ever actually doing anything to me. I can Recover/Wish all day, and you can do nothing to stop it.

a Pokemon being under 240 Spe which is incredibly uncommon

Except for, y'know, most anything defensive or that doesn't run "outspeed Jolly Tyranitar" EVs (which has always struck me as kind of a silly goal given the fact that I rarely see Jolly Tyranitars).

Thunder Wave making you immobile.

... except that I didn't assume that. I was saying that, given enough time, Thunder Wave will eventually immobilize something, which means that Ferrothorn will eventually avoid a hit. Which increases your survivability.

You don't take damage from LO unless you attack,

[deadpan]You don't say.[/deadpan]

and Whiscash should probably be Resting by the time it is at 20% health, not attacking. Mystic Water isn't middle ground because when I tested this team, I found myself spamming Earthquake much more than Waterfall as it gets much better coverage.

I'm kinda doubting that, since Waterfall is better on neutral targets, and it has better coverage overall. Sure, against stuff like Ferrothorn and Rain teams Earthquake comes into play, but with Fliers/Floaters being so common at the moment (in no small part due to the resurgence of Spikes), I doubt that Earthquake was more useful.

Scarf users

Please use a new paragraph when addressing a new point.

are actually a big counter to this team as most Scarfed Dragon and Fighting types will wreck this team.

Eeh... maybe. Since Tornadus is the only counter to those Pokemon even without a Scarf, I'm somewhat hesitant to call it a significant improvement, especially when Tornadus loses a lot of his revenging power by not using Specs/Life Orb.

Gyro Ball is better because for such a defensive Pokemon like Ferrothorn, you want as much power as possible so you can actually nab some KOs. Power Whip's accuracy is a bad thing for any Pokemon, regardless of if they are a defensive or offensive Pokemon. But whatever, if you don't want to listen to the analysis on the forums, that's fine by me.

Playing the "everyone else thinks so" card doesn't look good for your argument, especially when you don't provide anything to back it up.

You'll have a hard time taking out anything that's already set up, regardless of whether you use Gyro Ball or Power Whip. Pokemon that are Choiced into a move Ferrothorn resists will often (but not always) take more from Gyro Ball, but they will generally just switch to something else if that happens. Power Whip helps in a fairly common situation - Ferrothorn vs. bulky Water stall battles. Most situations where Gyro Ball is clearly better simply cause the target to switch out.

If you aren't using both attacks, then you are probably using either Protect or Thunder Wave. Since Thunder Wave provides this team with some much-needed support (and Gyro Ball sucks with Thunder Wave), I'd suggest it over Protect. You can drop Power Whip for Protect if you really want Gyro Ball, but I'm not convinced that Gyro Ball is the better option if you are only running one attack.

EDIT: Replace Leftovers with Black Sludge on Toxicroak.

No. That's just asking to have your Black Sludge re-Tricked onto something that really doesn't want it, like Ferrothorn or Whiscash.

 

[Paradoxus]

First of all, Ferrothorn is meant to check offensive threats, like Haxorus and Garchomp, not try to attack defensive Pokemon, which Leech Seed already does. There are 78 Pokemon, and I included Chatot, Farfetch'd and a whole other bunch of crap Pokemon with the ability Levitate and with a Flying type, hell, I counted some Eviolite users, too. So thats 78 out of the 250 fully evolved Pokemon, thats one hell of a common thing, right?(Oh, sorry, sarcasm doesn't work over the interwebz). Pokemon using Trick twice is way uncommon, as most, if not all Trick users take super-effective damage from Toxicroak's moves. Plus, his team walls bulky Water- types extremely well, as Toxicroak is immune to their STABs, and so is my suggested Jellicent. 240 Base Speed also is uncommon with all the Chlorophyll abusers, all the scarfers, and all the just plain fast Pokemon in OU.

 

[Krasnopesky]

While Power Whip is very useful for Ferrothorn, I have to agree with Paradox that for my particular team it isn't as useful as the team is based around setting up on the very defensive pokemon that Power Whip hits.

Gyro Ball is more useful as I use Ferrothorn to check quick strong pokemon as I mentioned in my notes.

If I do end up dropping Skarmory I will change the EV spread of Ferrothorn to be able to tank Outrages better.

 

[Paradoxus]

Yea, 252 HP / 252 Def on Ferrothorn then 252 HP / 252 SDef on Jellicent is a good strategy.

 

[Krasnopesky]

Wasn't keen on Jellicent and found I missed Skarmory a lot so keeping Skarmory.

Ferrothorn with Protect works well and Power Whip doesn't hit much that other pokemon cant deal with so I have permanently changed that.

Life Orb provides Whiscash with a lot more power and it still have plenty of bulk so thats another permanent change too.

Still after suggestions and rates so if you have a read please leave a comment too =).

 

[shadowxevo]

Hey dude, pretty nice team. However, I think you should use Thunderus over Tornadus, since
1. Thunderus has a 100% accuracy STAB Thunder in the rain, also getting a boost from Choice Specs, denting large portions of the metagame that don't resist it.
2. Volt Switch. As your Tornadus has U - Turn, Thunderus would get a much more powerful Volt Switch, since it gets STAB and also, unlike U - Turn, it's a special move, so it gets a boost from Choice Specs.

 

[Krasnopesky]

@ shadowxevo, I have been considering Thundurus for some time, given his powerful status in the metagame at the moment.

I'll do some testing to see if the change in stab from flying to electric has any positive or negative side effects and give Thunderus ago, thanks for the suggestion.

 

[shadowxevo]

But doesn't it have STAB on both electric and flying type moves? Meaning you could use, like, Thunder/Hurricane/Volt Switch/filler, so you won't have to lose the Flying STAB.