Yes considering Golduck, Altaria and Lickilicky are the only Pokemon that use it and none of which are commonly used in OU, in fact I haven't even seen it used yet.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory
- Thread starter Philip7086
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Yes considering Golduck, Altaria and Lickilicky are the only Pokemon that use it and none of which are commonly used in OU, in fact I haven't even seen it used yet.
I am reading this thread and I really have to ask one thing:
What exactly is the point of trying to allow Swers back in like this?
Aldron's proposal was made on the grounds that without it, the fear of weather bans cascading would be banned. That's not how I see it. What you are trying to do is no different than these amusing requests to unban Blaze Blazeken. Rain is broken, and it was the Sw/Drizzle ban that kept in check. Now you want to try and undo that, but to such a small degree that this doesn't just turn back to round 2?
No pokemon, strategy, or ability has ever been twisted this much to the desperation from keeping it contained. If you guys are truly happy with your weather wars of gen 5, leave the meta as it is. Rain is doing just fine without the need for a boost, there is no reason to create this pseudo experiment just to see if one abuser might be ok with politoed.
I.E. Either undo the proposal and figure out where you want the ban hammer to strike, or leave it and keep your pseudo balance.
What exactly is the point of trying to allow Swers back in like this?
Aldron's proposal was made on the grounds that without it, the fear of weather bans cascading would be banned. That's not how I see it. What you are trying to do is no different than these amusing requests to unban Blaze Blazeken. Rain is broken, and it was the Sw/Drizzle ban that kept in check. Now you want to try and undo that, but to such a small degree that this doesn't just turn back to round 2?
No pokemon, strategy, or ability has ever been twisted this much to the desperation from keeping it contained. If you guys are truly happy with your weather wars of gen 5, leave the meta as it is. Rain is doing just fine without the need for a boost, there is no reason to create this pseudo experiment just to see if one abuser might be ok with politoed.
I.E. Either undo the proposal and figure out where you want the ban hammer to strike, or leave it and keep your pseudo balance.
Well kinda because I've seen weather mixed interestingly with the common OUs, but I guess I don't feel too strongly about it either way.
Really? I've never had a problem stopping Kingdra with Jellicent, am I missing something here? It's not the best thing you can do about Kingdra, but I've done it.
With LO Kingdra can 2KO max hp/def bold Jellicent with Outrage (without a dragon dance even up) and if it runs lums berry Jellicent will waste a turn on using will-o-wisp and will therefore be 3KO'd. Either way it can't take the switch in damage and then kill Kingdra.
Considering physical Kingdra is more broken (than special), I assumed you were talking about that. My bad.
And anyway, in the case of the common mix set Kingdra, it can Drago Meteor/Dragon Pulse and then kill with Outrage.
Finally, another one that understands my point.
Why overpower a thing that is just too powerful with another power-up ? (whooo just too "power" words :O).
The only thing to do with weathers is banning them OR restrict them OR leave it just like they are now NOT overpower them.
I'm in the same boat: I made it to the 1500 range with a non weather team, and the most troublesome teams were sun, and stall (due to scald mainly, I've lost to scald hax more often than to any weather abuser and even sand veil hax...)
I like. I always thought that Swift Swimmers got jacked because of Kingdra / Ludicolo / Kabutops, and that they should get a second chance. My proposal on my sig was my attempt to preserve as much potency of Rain as possible, only removing the overpowered elements. However, with large hostility towards Rain, players did not want an extended test on Rain. Aldaron's Proposal was a compromise between both camps, I'd like to say, and I am glad that it was passed rather than the outright ban of DrizzleToed.
However, I definitely feel that Aldaron's Proposal should be re-examined. And your take on it "1 Swift Swimmer per team" is a really clever and perceptive approach that would help find the proper solution. My proposal, and more relevantly, Aldaron's Proposal assumed that the combination of Swift Swim + Rain was overpowering. However, it was really the combination of Swift Swimmers that truly broke it. By limiting to 1 right now, we can at least observe if any 1 Swift Swimmer is broken on its own.
I think that you, however, are trying to preserve DrizzleToed at all cost, for the sake of consistency among the different weathers. Banning the summoner of Rain whereas banning the abusers of sand does seem like a double standard in some respect. I think I also have to agree, here. With Rain gone, the weather war will undoubtedly continue to keep those insane Growth / Cholorophyll & Fire Pokemon of Sun and Excadrill & Garchomp of Sand in check.
As capefeather has responded to your suggestion, and as you have conceded, it is much too early to implement your plan. I agree that we should not add any more 'suspect variables' into the picture until we have reached a stable metagame that we more or less agree upon. Jibaku and co claims that there are no suspects, and I would like to believe this. However, there are still some people hating on Rain and claiming that it is still overpowered, so adding more Rain Abusers would only agitate them further. Hopefully we have no suspect this round, and you can propose this in Round 5 Nominations.
Good shit, Icyman.
The proposal isn't to try to overpower Rain. The idea is to scale back the Aldaron Proposal until we find out which Swift Swimmers are broken.
If you think it's ridiculous, take into consideration that:
1) Aldaron's Proposal was understood to be temporary until we found what was broken about Rain
2) This plan would be ideally take place in a round without suspects
3) Something has to be done about the proposal eventually because under the current metagame pokemon like Luvdisc and Floatzel are nerfed because we all know Kabutops/Kingdra are broken
I honestly think we should'vs started by just banning Swift Swimmers. Since Politoed's at about 10% usage, it's not unreasonable at all that they would be seen under Rain fairly often.
I'm reading through the moninations thread right now, and I think that some of the arguments against thundurus are flawed. Blaziken and garchomp have one main set that is cited as broken, but people are saying that thundurus should be banned because:
It's the fastest poke in OU.
It has 115 / 125 offenses and NP.
It can sweep with tbolt, HP ice and focus blast for perfect coverage.
It can also beat blissey and tyranitar with taunt + hammer arm.
Scarfers and revenge killers are paralyzed by prankster twave.
It has priority taunt.
But not all on the same set. Faster revenge killers deal with it easily sans twave. Blissey can throw it around if it lacks hammer arm, which ends your sweep anyway (-1 speed.)
It's the fastest poke in OU.
It has 115 / 125 offenses and NP.
It can sweep with tbolt, HP ice and focus blast for perfect coverage.
It can also beat blissey and tyranitar with taunt + hammer arm.
Scarfers and revenge killers are paralyzed by prankster twave.
It has priority taunt.
But not all on the same set. Faster revenge killers deal with it easily sans twave. Blissey can throw it around if it lacks hammer arm, which ends your sweep anyway (-1 speed.)
I guess we are both right in the sense that it's not a one versus one battle, it is a team effort. Ferrothorn can't beat Heatran, whilst Heatran can't beat Vaporeon.
The examples I used where from the person I quoted. Whilst you are right that Pokemon like Vaporon will always beat Heatran outside of weather, this is not the case for a large number of Pokemon. In reference to the example again, Starmie would beat Excadrill if it were not for Sand Rush.
And Heatran would beat Toxicroak if it were not for rain.
And Darmanitan would not OHKO and beat Latios/Gliscor if it were not for sun boost.
Anyway, before I go off on a tangent, the fact of the matter is, although Pokemon like Heatran will wall most sun teams, and although it walls Ferrothorn in general, I still can't imagen it being a great Pokemon to use against a drizzle team. Likewise Gliscor counters Excadrill, however I can't imagen wanting one on my team against sun/rain.
I myself aren't too convinced Thundurus is broken but I think we can all recognize that it really is powerful. However, considering that:
Makes it a high tier OU poke in its own rite and a pain to deal with but add in the fact that:
It's threat level is high and seeing it in Team Preview requires the extra speculation about what's coming. The versatility of a pokemon is also a factor in how powerful it is. The fact that Thudurus is so threatening, has about 2 reliable counters in Swampert and Quagsire, is potent in Rain, and has two very useful sets that make it a total pain to deal with I'm not surprised it's been nominated. Thundurus' versatility is it's main selling point. Don't forget that in Gen 4 Mew was Uber due in part to the diversity it held as a threat.
And for extra lolz: Tropius, Parasect, Smashpassing, and Choice Specs were all nominated.
Allow me to refer you to
I got the joke. And smashpassing is only broken if the opponent doesn't have a phazing move.
No. As I have already stated in a previous argument Sand Storm itself isn't broken (read earlier arguments for more information), however certain abilities within Sand Storm are, just like how Sand Veil Chomp was found to be broken last gen. In this case, Garchomp was the only thing to break Sand Veil. As someone before me has already stated, no one complained about Gliscor/Cacturn with the same ability. I am well aware that Smogon does not support complex bans, however I think it should be considered for OU. If Drizzle/Drought where to be banned, abilities on Pokemon who break it within sandstorm would follow i.e Sand Rush Excadrill and Sand Veil Chomp (since nothing else with this is broken.)
In the scenario I am referring to, Sand Stream Tyranitar would not be banned, only Drizzle/Drought, however specific Pokemon within sand storm that are found to be broken i.e Sand Rush Excadrill and Sand Veil Chomp, would be banned separately.
Scenario 2 would be to ban all weather - Rain/Drought/Sand/Hail, but in this case we would need to wait for the Dream World abilities to be released on Tyranitar and Abomasnow.
Well it appears that Garchomp will be leaving once again. It's a shame because he probably wouldn't be broken outside of sandstorm. I think Thunderus was a pain, so I'm mostly glad to see him go. One less priority taunt to stop Whimsicott maybe(probably not going to change anything)?
I am hoping Smogon will consider complex bans in OU at some point. Garchomp is only broken with Sand Veil, however Rough Skin is not released yet.
I believe Thundurus is somewhat comparable to Salamence in DPP, but to a lesser extent. You don't know what move it exactly holds until it's too late. In Salamence's case, you didn't know what moveset Salamence holds until it's too late. Not that I think this is a valid argument for banning Pokemon, but that was pretty much how Salamence got banned.
I am wondering what would be a good replacement if Thundurus does get banned? Zapdos has the same typing as it, but it does not work anywhere near like Thundurus. Thundurus's main selling point was its 111 Speed to outrun major threats, such as Salamence, Garchomp, Terakion, Gengar, and Latios, which Zapdos fails to do. I believe Jolteon or Raikou would be a better replacement. Yes, it is more one-dimensional than Thundurus, and does not have the godsend Nasty Plot + Focus Blast. However, they do have the major advantage of being an extremely fast offensive Special Sweeper. Jolteon with Modest has pretty much the same Special + Speed stat as Thundurus. It doesn't have Nasty Plot, but it does have Fake Tears.
Alakazam is also a fitting replacement for Thundurus imo. Not only does it have the awesome Speed and Special Attack, but it also has the perfect coverage to hit everything hard with Psychic, Focus Blast, and Shadow Ball. Another perk of Alakazam is that it can outspeed Starmie and Scarftar, and it has Magic Guard, so it won't be easy revenge-killing it. Unfortunately Alakazam does not have Nasty Plot, but with Calm Mind, Life Orb boost with no drawbacks, and its superior Special Attack I believe it can clean games, imo.
Concerning Sand Veil + Sandstream complex ban (if it passes), I wonder which Pokemon players would choose - Tyranitar or Garchomp? Most likely Tyranitar to change the weather, kill Psychic monsters, and to set up Excadrill and even Landorus. Garchomp would most likely be seen as a Scarf revenge-killer more often in non-Sandstream teams
I think you missed my point. The comparison to unbanning Blaze Blaziken is lol because Swift Swim and Drizzle are not parts of the same pokemon, they are separate entities to begin with.
For the record, I actually would much rather undo the proposal entirely so that we can assess Drizzle as it is rather than the nerfed form we have now, but how much support do you think that will garner? Gradually reintroducing the swift swimmers will reach the same end result - to prove once and for all that Drizzle is broken and that instead of nerfing it, we should ban it as a whole.
However, it seems that the nomination thread is accomplishing that purpose as is, so this may not be needed. Here's hoping for a supermajority.
Here's what people failed to notice when sending Blaziken to ubers, as he apparently had a set of SD/HJK/Stone Edge/Flare Blitz/Protect/Shadow Claw, sun's always up and he's always at 100% health and +2 atk/speed.
Being a fan os Thundurus' utility and abusing the heck out of him on almost every team I make, I've a list of situations where Thundurus fails:
1 - Sand's up and they have Excadrill. Don't even bring Thundurus out in those situations.
2 - he switched into SR and can't one shot the foe. This always means he'll get killed right there, and if he switches out, has to lose 25% health again.
3 - The Nasty Plot set misses against anything. Missed Focus Blast against Ferro? Chansey? Prepare to get killed or Paralized.
4 - They have priority. Even Bullet Punch will do a lot to him, add this to the fact he's SR weak, depends on Life Orb and takes Sandstorm damage, and he'll have a pretty short life.
5 - They're naturaly faster. This stops absolutely any kind of Thundurus. He can priority Thunder Wave you, and then die.
6 - He's ridiculously predicable. Even with Prankster, you can assume he'll use fightning, electric and ice moves on you (unlike Tyranitar, a dinosaur that shoots fire, ice, thunders, rocks, bites and even sets up Earthquakes...), so you can switch around to stack passive damage or go straight to your scarfer and force him out.
Thundurus is the exact same example as Blaziken. With only four move slots there's always something that will stop it, and, even if it succeeds on his job, he'll kill himself in no time. I can't stress this out enough, if something doesn't survive long enough and needs to set up to sweep, it fails to be uber.
Does anyone keep Thundurus in mind while building a team? Personally the first Pokemon I think of is Excadrill. Unlike Thundurus, Team Preview doesn't help you at all. And you can't force him to expose himself earlier in the match, while his user can force you to expose your Excadrill counter. And once your counter dies, you're swept.
Then you either 1) have a weather war to decide on who kills the inducer first or 2) have multiple checks to him.
People keep saying that Drizzle is broken. Having Rain on the field doesn't make any Pokemon a sweeping machine, or gives you an unfair advantage to the point of auto-win since Rain often backfires.
From the 11 top used Pokemon in OU, 5 (Ferrothorn, Scizor, Latios, Rotom, Jirachi) benefits from the rain, despite most being used into Sandstorm teams.
Unlike Sandstorm, which often ends with an Excadrill sweep and only the team dedicated to it can abuse, as most Pokemon used in rain team are vulnerable to Sand damage.
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