Male rape and equality

User 40136

Banned deucer.
A.K.A. "The thread I'm going to regret making".
Note: I read some great articles earlier this year regarding this topic and unfortunately I can't find them at the moment. I apologise for this.

Since the, sometimes rather heated, discussions in the Slutwalk thread regarding female rape and accountability, it brought to life a topic that's been burning my mind for a while.

Now one of my favourite private blogs tends to keep me up to date with a lot of articles about male health and social issues. I've read some pretty chilling articles on the general treatment of men in many social and legal cases.

Now I want to establish one important thing right off: I am not, in any way, trying to claim that men are entirely innocent and do not or have not done things to be shameful of. White males especially are guilty of generally being involved in some horrendous things over the centuries.

I have read about tales where men have been unable to get certain jobs or not been allowed to work with certain people like children because of negative stereotypes and suspicious based upon age, gender or ethnicity.
Here is an article from just over two years ago about the amount of men working in prim
ary schools being at between 1 or 2%.
Tales where women would be more likely to be offered jobs with children or infants or be allowed to change the nappies of or look after young children, possibly unattended, where men would have to be accompanied by a woman, if at all.

I've read some scary articles on men refusing to risk helping children for fear that their concern would be seen as predatory. Essentially: we are risking the well-being of children on stereotypes and suspicion.

I watched some of ABC's fantastic "What Would You Do?" segments, and one was a follow-up to another that they did (that I haven't seen yet but they showed clips of) where would you speak up if you saw a man slipping something into his date's drink. It did appear that people were very quick to speak up and many were (rightfully) quite vocal about it for fear of the woman's safety.

In the case of the man though, only one person, another woman, spoke up. It probably didn't help that the man was set up as being fairly well off which might have made the other people jealous when his date was boastful about his "boat", but a bunch of men that saw actually almost seemed glad and joked about reading about what had become of the poor bloke the next day.

I think it is pretty awful when we would fight to protect a woman, but would not offer the same for a man regardless of his status.
Another had a young underage boy having his attractive female flaunting and showing off affection to his distress. It seems that the general attitude, especially from other men, was that they wouldn't interfere. When the boy "played along" with the romance nobody spoke despite it being illegal.

I know for a fact that had this been an older male, attractive or not, with a young girl then people would be way more likely to speak up and much sooner. It seems that a young boy having a relationship with an older woman is either considered "amusing" or at least almost "attractive".

Regarding rape: Now we all know that this is a terrible thing so I won't go into all that, but I would say that male rape is probably reported much less than even female is. There's quite a question over if men can even be raped at all and an almost fear within men of being seen as "weak" or whatever for not wanting a woman to have sex with them or shame in being raped by another man.

My mother has plainly said to me that she doesn't believe men can be raped, at least not by a woman.

This is pretty chilling for me when I've always fought for and believed in total equality for all.

I apologise now that this topic hasn't come across as well as I hoped. I'm pretty bad at putting my thoughts forward and expect some pretty bad responses to this.
Thanks for reading.
 
Howdy Euromix2. I noticed you posted this on ZU in the serious discussion thread.

My bud and I talked about this for about a week after we read this in the news.

Obviously it's statuatory, but we couldn't ever decide if it was really "rape" or not if it was consentual. I mean... come on... look at the pic... then remember being a desparate 16 year old... 100 times? Idunno man.
 
yes it does

male rape is an interesting topic, especially considering the way society views masculinity. males are supposed to be "tough" emotionally and physically, and with something like rape, where the person who is attacked is usually traumatized and put in emotional distress, the outward pressures can conflict with how you are "supposed" to deal with it i.e. opening up etc etc

also some of that stuff is pretty scary, because although women are generally supposed to be more caring and kind, less cruel etc, that doesn't mean that that's true and some pretty scary shit could go on without anyone taking note due to the fact that they won't view the female as harming in any way, or will be proud or jealous of the male
 
Howdy Euromix2. I noticed you posted this on ZU in the serious discussion thread.

My bud and I talked about this for about a week after we read this in the news.

Obviously it's statuatory, but we couldn't ever decide if it was really "rape" or not if it was consentual. I mean... come on... look at the pic... then remember being a desparate 16 year old... 100 times? Idunno man.
i came to the same conclusion mattj, infact i leaned more towards "its not rape".
now am i saying that men cannot be raped? no thats not what i'm saying. i think after a certain age it becomes VERY VERY hard to "rape" a man[strictly talking about a woman raping a man here]. i think at some point during the rape, maybe when you are riding him hard whiles he is completely tied down[if you even get that far before he just gets into it and it becomes regular sex]...........know what, i think you'll probably be fine untying him at this point so he just fucks you better.
 
Leaving out very rare exceptions, I entirely agree with your mother.

A violent assault from a woman on a man, without his consent, to quench her sexual appetite, like something described in Ninahaza's post, is pretty much unheard of.

Although it lives in most men's fantasies....

To even consider women rapists, you need to enlarge the definition of rape beyond that of a sexual non consentual assault. I don't think this is something we should be doing. It makes no sense to me to call 'rape' what has happened between that teacher and student in mattj's example. That woman was likely in love with this kid who responded similarly. The problem was that he was underage according to an age limit set pretty arbitrarely. It varies a lot from a country to another.
 
Theres always gay male rapists. I mean they may not be common, but you can't tell me they don't exist.
 
I will echo what has been said already, I think a woman actually "raping" is basically something that doesn't happen. Could it? I guess so, anything is possible. The cases are probably... incredibly rare.
 
woman_man.jpg
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images
maybe?

Please enlighten me if I'm just a moron shutupcookie but isn't the reason that so many more women are raped by men because if a man really wants to overpower a woman he can?
 
mattj said:
Obviously it's statuatory, but we couldn't ever decide if it was really "rape" or not if it was consentual. I mean... come on... look at the pic... then remember being a desparate 16 year old... 100 times? Idunno man.
Vineon said:
That woman was likely in love with this kid who responded similarly. The problem was that he was underage according to an age limit set pretty arbitrarely. It varies a lot from a country to another.
Vineon said:
It makes no sense to me to call 'rape' what has happened between that teacher and student in mattj's example.
Being a "desperate 16-year-old" is one of the precise reasons that this is a problematic situation (granted, it's probably not the nonconsensual "kind" of rape, but it's still a serious problem). Obviously Vineon is correct in that it is intuitively conceivable that these were just two people in a healthy relationship who just so happened to be of widely differing age-- but I suspect that that's unlikely. Maybe I'm wrong, and the average 16-year-old boy can be expected to uphold a healthy relationship with someone over twice his age or whatever. If so, there is ultimately a benchmark somewhere, and it isn't based on the relative sexual desire of young boys (or what they "fantasize" about); being "desperate" doesn't translate into such a relationship being "healthy" or "good."


Please enlighten me if I'm just a moron shutupcookie but isn't the reason that so many more women are raped by men because if a man really wants to overpower a woman he can?
That probably has a lot to do with it, but this doesn't in any way preclude the premise that "women can rape men, which is a problem." I kind of have no idea why people are bringing up the idea that "female rapists are a lot rarer than male rapists" in the first place. Yes, and?


Sharma, good thread and I don't think you've said anything I disagree with.
 
A 'female rapist' could still always pray on smaller men, or younger men. They could also use a weapon to put themselves in a position of power. A man regardless of size is likely to obey when at gun point.

But they just don't ever do this, not even rarely, just not ever. Which makes me dismiss quite instantly the theory that there arent as many female rapists because they can't physically overpower men. It just isn't the reason.

I still go one better than imply there are less female rapists, I say there are simply no female rapists, not unless you broaden the term further than I'd like it to be. The only cases of violent rape assaults I've been made aware of that involved a woman, such as the Karla Homolka case, always also involved a man.
 
But, look guys, it doesnt even have to be full on rape. I mean, bodybuilders and other strong women (there are more than you'd think) can overpower a weak male eg. RPG nerds (sorry for the stereotype) or young 18-ish or 14ish or really old males. Things like mild sexual assault, blackmail, etc. can count too. If a man goes up to a random woman and grabs her butt, it's sexual assault. If a woman goes up to a random man and grabs his butt, it's sexual assault. Just because it's rare doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It's easier, much easier, and more likely for women and children to be overpowered by men, but women can do it too. Even if it's not rape, trust me (it's happened to me), a woman is easily capable of doing something to a man if she wants to.

EDIT: Also women can wield weapons, as Vineon pointed out.

EDIT2: Also what Deck Knight said is pretty accurate. About the weapons, I mean.
 
Rape isn't about sex, it is about power. That it manifests itself as a sexual act and society is blunt-faced stupid in how it treats matters of sexuality are merely things you have to take into account when analyzing it.

Point blank, if a person in authority exploits their position of power (be it a physical overpowering or more subtle forms of power) for their sexual pleasure, they have committed a rape. Moreover, as was the case when I was a dumb young lad, when you get involved with a woman too quickly and that relationship turns south, it can affect your behavior years after the fact. That's just how the male body is wired. It causes real appreciable harm beyond the "herpderp he enjoyed it, it must not be rape" response.

In the case of an attractive female teacher raping a male student, it is no different. The woman is in a position of power and predating on a young boy for some reason, inexorably altering his expectations regarding women in the future. Even if she doesn't get booked and they end up together, it's still primarily an exploitative relationship with the child being herded against his will, even into adulthood. All you can do is pray the female rapist doesn't get tired of her original toy and go for a still younger "model," thus ruining multiple lives. There has to be a point where we stop pulling bullshit like Whoopi Goldberg's infamous "it's not a rape-rape" quote. It is a "rape-rape." There's only one kind, just like you are killed dead-dead or get pregnant-pregnant. It's not a spectrum thing.
 
i'm sorry vineon, i just don't understand your argument at all. women can't be rapists because you've never heard of it happening?

i'm sure there are several instances within the last few decades of women raping men with guns or muscles or whatever. maybe you didn't hear about it because it wasn't reported, or maybe you just didn't hear about it.

it seems to me that men being on average physically stronger is only a minor contributing factor to the higher number of male rapists. i would think it's because men tend to have a more active sex drive.

as the kid in the video (the one i watched, anyway) pretty clearly didn't want to get into it with his tutor, yes, that was (would have been) a rape. when the 16-year-old student is willing, it becomes a question of "at what age are people responsible for themselves" and this varies widely by culture. i'd like to think that everyone could be in charge of themselves, but i can see why this would pose serious problems for the six-year-olds who run away when they get the wrong christmas present...
 
That rape is about power has been said countless times but it is certainly too about sex. It isn't just a manifestation of a desire to dominate but also why it manifests itself as a sexual assault.

A pedophile that jacks off to his kid porn for years before making a victim in the flesh is a sexual deviant and beyond the power rush, is also looking for the sexual experience. A man that lusts on a co-worker to the point of taking pictures while stalking her and stealing her undergarments before finally deciding to rape her, beyond the possible power rush need is looking to find gratification in the sexual experience.

A murder will always leave the victim dead. As you cannot relativise death (neither pregnancy), the comparison is terrible. Rape is certainly more subjective as you start broadening the term to include very different situations. Whoopi is very right, in this thread there are situations described I'd call rape and others, involving consent, I'd prefer be labeled differently. It at least should be seen differently by the Law.
 
i'm sorry vineon, i just don't understand your argument at all. women can't be rapists because you've never heard of it happening?

i'm sure there are several instances within the last few decades of women raping men with guns or muscles or whatever. maybe you didn't hear about it because it wasn't reported, or maybe you just didn't hear about it.

it seems to me that men being on average physically stronger is only a minor contributing factor to the higher number of male rapists. i would think it's because men tend to have a more active sex drive.

as the kid in the video (the one i watched, anyway) pretty clearly didn't want to get into it with his tutor, yes, that was (would have been) a rape. when the 16-year-old student is willing, it becomes a question of "at what age are people responsible for themselves" and this varies widely by culture. i'd like to think that everyone could be in charge of themselves, but i can see why this would pose serious problems for the six-year-olds who run away when they get the wrong christmas present...

Oh this is the kind of thing that'd be rare enough to be reported. Case in point, the female teacher having a relationship with the younger student. This has made national news for a reason only : it was a female teacher and a male student. It is sensational news because it is rare news. The opposite happens way more and thus simply won't ever make such a wave in the media. It doesn't get reported because it doesn't really happen. There are no women acting alone waiting in their minivan to abduct a kid leaving school in hope of sexually assaulting him.

What's in that video is definitely harrassment but I wouldn't call it rape.
 
Howdy Euromix2. I noticed you posted this on ZU in the serious discussion thread.

My bud and I talked about this for about a week after we read this in the news.

Obviously it's statuatory, but we couldn't ever decide if it was really "rape" or not if it was consentual. I mean... come on... look at the pic... then remember being a desparate 16 year old... 100 times? Idunno man.

The premise of statutory rape is that someone below the age of consent does not have the legal/mental capacity to give informed consent. It is the same premise as the rape of 'consenting' mentally handicapped people.

Interestingly, in Australia you can legally give consent to sex at age 16, but there are special exceptions for relationships with teachers and others who are in a position of responsibility for you. This is there as a safety net for undue influence those responsible for you can apply to you.

For instance, without such a provision a foster parent could use their foster child for sex by applying household pressure if they don't consent; then use the fact they 'gave consent' to get off with the charge in court.


For once, I actually think Deck Knight is more or less correct.
 
All I'm gonna say to people who don't believe it can happen is; what about that Russian woman a year or so back who got arrested for spiking some guys drinks then taking them home and having sex while they were unconscious?

I'd find a news article but god knows putting the terms "Russia" and "rape" into any web search is not going to end pleasantly.

Deck Knight actually knows what the fuck he's talking about in a rare turn of events.


I am not, in any way, trying to claim that men are entirely innocent and do not or have not done things to be shameful of. White males especially are guilty of generally being involved in some horrendous things over the centuries.

Stop accepting guilt for things you have no control over.. and no need to single out White people either; Asians, Blacks and Arabs have done just as much completely fucked up stuff too - thing is, most of it was a century or more ago.
 
Something that happens every solar eclipse hardly should count for much. As mentionned before, when I say it doesn't happen, I leave out the really rare exceptions.

I feel safe to say that such rape incidents as the one you pin on that Russian woman you cannot find a mention of are probably committed by men something like 99.9% of the time. It is also the reason it makes the news when it does happen.

I assume this is what you were referring to (just add 'drink' to your Google search):

http://mosnews.com/weird/2009/06/18/blackwidow/?/456
 
i came to the same conclusion mattj, infact i leaned more towards "its not rape".
now am i saying that men cannot be raped? no thats not what i'm saying. i think after a certain age it becomes VERY VERY hard to "rape" a man[strictly talking about a woman raping a man here]. i think at some point during the rape, maybe when you are riding him hard whiles he is completely tied down[if you even get that far before he just gets into it and it becomes regular sex]...........know what, i think you'll probably be fine untying him at this point so he just fucks you better.

How does the fact he gets into it during the rape make it any more acceptable? It's still rape.
 
For once, I actually think Deck Knight is more or less correct.

Deck Knight actually knows what the fuck he's talking about in a rare turn of events.

I never thought I would say this, but I agree with these people that Deck Knight's post was factual. God I think I need to lie down.

The attitude towards rape in this thread is shocking really, and it's what makes the reporting rate for rape among men (and in general) so low.
 
If I can refocus a bit Vineon, what I'm trying to move people away from is the commonly portrayed "movie rape" where some guy physically overpowers the target in his lust. That's probably how a lot of rapes go down, as random acts of violence, but it's not the sole context of rape.

As far as the examples, I am focusing on the actual act itself being a rape or not, not on whether a legal charge of rape would stick or be applicable. It's entirely possible in some of the later examples that no rape occurred because the party with "official" power didn't exercise it in the course of seeking the sexual act, but they could easily be charged with it and have it stick.

Another unexplored element is the rape of boys by men. For most grown men the very idea of having any sex with another man has an immediate squick factor in any context, but male homosexuals balk at groups like NAMBLA in equal measure.

So lets try our given example in the classroom environment again. You have a gay male teacher preying on a teenage boy. And lets just say this boy grows up in one of those environments where you're taught from first grade that sexuality is one of those loose, undefined things, with no positive or negative associations with either masculine or feminine qualities. I assure you the curriculum already exists and is in place. Thusly, by the time the boy in our example is 16, he's firmly in the "questioning" territory. The teacher offers to help him "explore his sexuality." And not knowing any differently, and being trained from early schooling that anything goes, and all relationships are equally valid despite outward appearances, he consents to "exploring" with his teacher.

Is the resulting sexual act a rape? It is, because it is still about power. Even when nurtured in a morally relativistic environment and offering full consent, the objective truth of the matter is an adult abused their position of authority for sexual pleasure with a child. Now, I have provided no details about the teacher in question, he could be the most unsightly bear you've ever seen or a regular Adonis sent from the heavens. Viewing rape through the prism of fantasies or desires is thus erroneous. When we were 16, sure we'd like to do the hot teacher... but what if the rapist doesn't meet the general female standards for beauty? I can hazard a guess the response would be "as ugly inside as on the outside." But that could just be my cynicism.

Now perhaps the classroom is a bad starting point, since I suppose that yes, most rapes are a "movie rape" as outlined in my first paragraph. There must be an acknowledgement that the issue goes far beyond dark alleys and into environments where much softer, but arguably more insidious abuses of power are taking place. There's a litany of things I could write that are insidious about every aspect of the example I gave, but the fundamental point is that no level of consent or nurturing is sufficient to alter a defined rape.

A teacher is in the same authority as a priest over children, and it is a rape for precisely the same reason. The definition can even apply to a boss/subordinate relationship of adults in either gender, provided a threat is applied if sexual activity is either not engaged or is discontinued. Coerced consent is ultimately not consent, regardless of the fantasies/enjoyment factor, etc.

The deciding factor is the balance of power/authority. If you and a co-worker of roughly equal standing have an affair and afterward she claims rape, that's a false report. If either one is a supervisor of the other and either one makes a threat that would impact the other's job, then the threatening party is the rapist, because even though the supervisor might have more "official" authority, the coercion is being applied such that "official" power doesn't matter and the applied power of the threat supercedes. This obviously gets complicated on a practical level if you happen to be a male supervisor of a female subordinate threatening your job if you don't continue the affair, so primo business advice: Don't sleep with subordinates.

The central definition here is that power (either physical, defamation, blackmail, direct authority, etc.) is used to coerce someone into a sexual act. Where power is roughly equal, either can be a rapist. Where one has such obvious power over the other as in a teacher/student relationship, I'm hard-pressed to believe someone threatening their teacher's job if they don't continue the sexual acts the teacher started is a rapist. When dealing with the first sexual acts of children, you create a bond that will last forever, and they will do anything to continue it, even if you repent and reform from the monstrous initial activity. There is a price to paid for evil, and evil is both real and definable.
 
Something that happens every solar eclipse hardly should count for much. As mentionned before, when I say it doesn't happen, I leave out the really rare exceptions.

The fact that an event is statistically insignificant doesn't mean it didn't/won't/can't happen, therein lies my point.
 
Great post by Deck Knight. One of the two posts I agree with him wholeheartedly.

Going along the point of what Flareblitz said, the double standard that society holds for rape is atrocious. One of the more logical reasons why female on male rape numbers are so low is that men don't want to be exposed to this kind of view by others and be seen by society as being weak, especially with society's view that males have dominance over females in aspects of rape.

Just throwing this out also: with medical advances and the proliferation of "roofies" and other drugs that can make any human powerless and unconscious, what's to say that women don't have the same access to these drugs as men do?
 
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