np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[CTNC]

Yes, I do think that it's overrated. Cresselia is kinda in the same boat as lugia. If it were uber, you'd all be saying stuff like "It has 120 / 120 / 130 defenses! It has recovery! It has a spikes immunity! It resists ground and fighting! It can trickscarf, calm mind, psycho shift ect."

Lugia is cress with lesser bulk, flying typing (3 more weaknesses, bug and grass resistance, SR weakness) and slightly higher offenses (90 / 90 vs 70 / 75.) What does lugia have over pokes like cress, bronzong, uxie, xatu, mandibuzz, latias and gliscor? It's typing is awful for a defensive poke, and it struggles to differentiate itself from everything else.

Also, if it chooses to run max speed (base 110 is pretty good I must admit) and HP it's defenses drop from 106 / 130 / 154 to 106 / 85 / 107.

After reading this I must say you have a good point, however I don't like the idea for one reason, Sleep Talk + Dragon Tail/Whirlwind. Zero Priority Phasing off of a base 110 Speed and epic bulk is just scary to think about.
Scarftars Crunch does 212 - 252 (51.1-60.7%) damage to 248/8 Jolly Lugia (248 lets Lugia Switch into Stealth Rock 4 times) and you only have a 33% chance to not get phased out.

 

[Glen ^^]

Interrupting this absolutely productive and decisive discussion to bring something new to the table.

People are now nominating SmashPassing for being banned. It's already suspect in UU. Why has there been no discussion here?

if this is actually tl;dr then I'll stick with DISCUSS SMASHPASSING.

I'd rather have Espeon banned than Smashpassing, since she's the one that not only breaks Shell Smash, but Baton Passing strategies in general.

 

[Rosey Oak]

The fact that such a superior wall is even being considered to be brought back to OU, to me says a lot about the current Metagame.

But on the whole I’m unsure what to make off the Lugia situation due to the fact that I haven’t seen or tested it in OU. Lugia might prove to be fine in the sense that it has it ‘counters’, however outside of specific counters such as Tyranitar it may prove to be too powerful.

Anyway for now I decided to gain a better insight into Lugia’s walling capabilities in OU. Side Note: I am aware Lugia can’t beat Tyranitar, however for my statistics I wanted to use some of OUs most powerful hits against it.


These statistics all show Lugia with Max HP, NO EV investment in Def or Sp.def (Hardy Nature):

Latios Specs Drago Meteor versus Lugia Max HP and NO Sp.def EVs:
591 Atk vs 344 Def & 416 HP (140 Base Power): 259 - 306 (62.26% - 73.56%)

Gengar Specs Shadow Ball versus Lugia Max HP and NO Sp.def EVs:
538 Atk vs 344 Def & 416 HP (80 Base Power): 270 - 320 (64.90% - 76.92%)

Choice Band - Tyranitar Max Att Crunch versus Lugia Max HP and NO Def EVs:
604 Atk vs 296 Def & 416 HP (80 Base Power): 354 - 416 (85.10% - 100.00%)

Haxorus Max Att Outrage versus Lugia Max Hp and NO Def EVs:
432 Atk vs 296 Def & 416 HP (120 Base Power): 189 - 223 (45.43% - 53.61%)

I think these results are impressive in the sense that Lugia has NO def/sp.def EVs (hardy nature), and to be honest, I think Lugia’s walling capabilities outside of its specific counters will be off more of a threat than the calm mind set. However personally, I would like to test Lugia out more for myself, before making an accurate decision on whether I am for or against it becoming OU.

 

[SuperMegaUltra]

I'd rather have Espeon banned than Smashpassing, since she's the one that not only breaks Shell Smash, but Baton Passing strategies in general.

Try running Quagsire on your team. Quagsire renders BP teams useless, so long as you can find a sleep fodder first.

 

[Mishra]

The fact that such a superior wall is even being considered to be brought back to OU, to me says a lot about the current Metagame.

But on the whole I’m unsure what to make off the Lugia situation due to the fact that I haven’t seen or tested it in OU. Lugia might prove to be fine in the sense that it has it ‘counters’, however outside of specific counters such as Tyranitar it may prove to be too powerful.

Anyway for now I decided to gain a better insight into Lugia’s walling capabilities in OU. Side Note: I am aware Lugia can’t beat Tyranitar, however for my statistics I wanted to use some of OUs most powerful hits against it.

These statistics all show Lugia with Max HP, NO EV investment in Def or Sp.def (Hardy Nature):

Latios Specs Drago Meteor versus Lugia Max HP and NO Sp.def EVs:
591 Atk vs 344 Def & 416 HP (140 Base Power): 259 - 306 (62.26% - 73.56%)

Gengar Specs Shadow Ball versus Lugia Max HP and NO Sp.def EVs:
538 Atk vs 344 Def & 416 HP (80 Base Power): 270 - 320 (64.90% - 76.92%)

Choice Band - Tyranitar Max Att Crunch versus Lugia Max HP and NO Def EVs:
604 Atk vs 296 Def & 416 HP (80 Base Power): 354 - 416 (85.10% - 100.00%)

Haxorus Max Att Outrage versus Lugia Max Hp and NO Def EVs:
432 Atk vs 296 Def & 416 HP (120 Base Power): 189 - 223 (45.43% - 53.61%)

I think these results are impressive in the sense that Lugia has NO def/sp.def EVs (hardy nature), and to be honest, I think Lugia’s walling capabilities outside of its specific counters will be off more of a threat than the calm mind set. However personally, I would like to test Lugia out more for myself, before making an accurate decision on whether I am for or against it becoming OU.

While that is good calcs, I would like to point out going by all your calcs that the wall (lugia) cannot switch into any of those attacks with SR up.

I would also not mind lugia being tested, considering its arguable best counter is #1 right now.

 

[Rosey Oak]

While that is good calcs, I would like to point out going by all your calcs that the wall (lugia) cannot switch into any of those attacks with SR up.

All those statistics show Lugia running Max HP, but NO Sp.Def or Def EVs with Hardy Nature.

 

[Glen ^^]

Try running Quagsire on your team. Quagsire renders BP teams useless, so long as you can find a sleep fodder first.

Might as well run Wobbuffet on every team and bring down Giratina to OU.

And Quagsire doesn't have the stats to even take many Unawared hits, let alone break Vaporeon Subs.

 

[Mishra]

All those statistics show Lugia running Max HP, but NO Sp.Def or Def EVs with Hardy Nature.

I don't know enough about ubers to know what a common defensive set would run, but I would assume it would be a +speed nature.

If he is already running 252 hp, putting evs in defense/special defense either means lugia won't be hitting that hard, or that base 110 speed won't be that impressive, just saying.

 

[SlimMan]

Lugia is actually a lot like Cresselia... except with an awesome STAB type... and incredible Speed... and the ability to phaze... and instant, reliable recovery... and the ability to Pressure Stall...

I'd like to point out that the Lugia calcs don't really convince me that it's OU material.
252 HP Kyogre gets OHKOed by Specs Thundurus Thunder (which it would be running if Kyogre was around).
252 HP Kyogre gets OHKOed by Specs Celebi Leaf Storm (Specs Celebi is rare, but viable).
OMG things can OHKO Kyogre, let's put it in OU!!!

I don't mean to mock the Lugia thing, because it's true that Lugia isn't as clear-cut as things like Mewtwo. But I honestly cannot see Lugia being balanced in OU at all.

 

[chrisrandom9]

If you look at some of the Pokemon in Ubers you could make similar cases for them dropping down to OU. They're pretty slow in general and easily revenged or swept, seeing as they're on about base 90-100 and have pretty common weaknesses, but that doesn't mean they should come down to OU. Lugia would be on pretty much every team, I guarantee

 

[mien]

Since when is Flying an awesome stab type? More like average at best, considering those who resist it outnumber those weak to it in bw ou.

252 HP Kyogre gets OHKOed by Specs Thundurus Thunder (which it would be running if Kyogre was around).
252 HP Kyogre gets OHKOed by Specs Celebi Leaf Storm (Specs Celebi is rare, but viable).
OMG things can OHKO Kyogre, let's put it in OU!!!

Lugia is supposed to absorb damage therefore damage calculations from popular OU threats are relevant. Kyogre however does not function as a wall as such whether it's KO'd or not will not affect it's tiering by much.

 

[SuperMegaUltra]

Hey I know, we could also bring back Ho-Oh. He's got similar problems to Lugia, a large weakness to rocks, some decent checks and counters and a low base speed in comparasion to this meta. He's prone to some priority and doesn't like drizzle toed as much as the next guy. And with the top 20 pokemon in the usage stats, most of them can handle Ho-Oh pretty well. Yes, I think this will not create an unbalanced meta.

 

[SlimMan]

Since when is Flying an awesome stab type? More like average at best, considering those who resist it outnumber those weak to it in bw ou.

Flying STAB is the reason that Tornadus has been OU up to now. Spamming Flying STAB is currently the purpose of a couple DNite sets as well (check his page if you don't believe me).

Flying STAB is resisted by 3 things, Electric, Rock, and Steel.
We have 3 Electric-types in OU, and one of them may get banned this round.
We have 2 Rock-types in OU, and one of them doesn't even resist Flying.
As for Steel-types, some of the most important don't even resist Flying. Scizor and Ferrothorn are the only Steels in top 10, and they don't. Lower down, we have Forretress and Lucario, who don't either.

Flying STAB may not have the best SE coverage, but it has awesome neutral coverage (Flying + Fighting, for example, is resisted by 5 Pokemon in the entire game, and 3 of them suck), and that's more important for STAB moves anyway. Being SE is more important for coverage moves.

Lugia is supposed to absorb damage therefore damage calculations from popular OU threats are relevant. Kyogre however does not function as a wall as such whether it's KO'd or not will not affect it's tiering by much.

First of all, it's not "supposed" to do anything. It might be best at something, but Lugia has no pre-determined purpose. No Pokemon does.

Secondly, Kyogre does run max HP on every set bar Choice Scarf, and on several sets he runs Bold or Defense EVs; just check the analysis. So calcs involving max HP are relevant as well.
And by the way, it would affect Kyogre's tiering, hypothetically, because if every other Pokemon in OU could one-shot it, it wouldn't be very broken, despite its immense power. But that's not the case.

Thirdly, why don't you try some Pokemon which doesn't hit it for SE+STAB damage? It's like the Heatran vs Paras thing, you're choosing the most damaging attacks against it that you can. The "average" attacker probably won't have a super effective STAB. That's like saying that Ferrothorn isn't good because it gets 2HKOed by Fighting moves. When I see "typical" attacking Pokemon 2HKOing Lugia, then I'll be impressed by your calcs. But as it stands, I am not.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Isn't "ban Smashpassing" a complex ban ?__?

EDIT-- WTF, Gorebyss is RU, are we seriously going to let Smashpassing run amok in every single tier lol

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

Remember when it was absolutely bad to ban moves on certain Pokémon?

Banning SmashPass is like that.

What is the difference between allowing Salamence without Dragon Dance and Outrage in Gen IV OU and allowing Huntail, Gorebyss, and Smeargle without Baton Pass and Shell Smash in OU who would otherwise be Uber? It is, after all, their best set, and doing this is nerfing Pokémon so that they can be allowed in OU. Like unbanning Blaze Blaziken. At least Speed Boost Blaziken can't change its ability.

I thought people would never go as far as to allow nominating move combinations, but I thought that if they did, they would at least be allowing nominating Pokémon+Ability first.

 

[BurningMan]

Remember when it was absolutely bad to ban moves on certain Pokémon?

Banning SmashPass is like that.

What is the difference between allowing Salamence without Dragon Dance and Outrage in Gen IV OU and allowing Huntail, Gorebyss, and Smeargle without Baton Pass and Shell Smash in OU who would otherwise be Uber? It is, after all, their best set, and doing this is nerfing Pokémon so that they can be allowed in OU. Like unbanning Blaze Blaziken. At least Speed Boost Blaziken can't change its ability.

I thought people would never go as far as to allow nominating move combinations, but I thought that if they did, they would at least be allowing nominating Pokémon+Ability first.

I feel very similar just ban Huntail/Gorebyss/Smeargle the first two are horrible without it anyway and if you want it gone you have to deal with losing smeargle too, if you really want to ban it.

Personally i don't think its ban worthy in OU almost everytime i faced it i was able to outplay the user simply because its an incredible one dimensional strategy. I haven't played against one with BP Espeon though.

 

[Nkululeko]

Isn't "ban Smashpassing" a complex ban ?__?

Almost every page of the suspect threads have complex ban nominations. Seriously, whether it's "overcentralising" or "uncompetitive" or needs a "complex ban" there's always a new fad in banning.

EDIT-- WTF, Gorebyss is RU, are we seriously going to let Smashpassing run amok in every single tier lol

Why not? From what I've heard it's really easy to do, almost effortless, and is really powerful, almost anybody can do it. De ja vu, I could've sworn people were saying the same about Rain abuse in Round 2.

 

[Ninja_13]

What is the difference between allowing Salamence without Dragon Dance and Outrage in Gen IV OU and allowing Huntail, Gorebyss, and Smeargle without Baton Pass and Shell Smash in OU who would otherwise be Uber?

I would have to hazard a guess and say that while DD and Outrage was only broken on Salamence in Gen IV OU, Smashpass is broken on every pokemon that gets it; this makes it similar to the difference between banning Speed Boost and banning Moody. I'm waiting for things to settle down before getting back into playing, though, so I don't know if that is true or not.

 

[Kingclown50]

Calcs

Standdard MixTar Crunch vs 252/4 Neutral Nature Lugia
304 Atk vs 297 Def & 416 HP (80 Base Power): 176 - 210 (42.31% - 50.48%)

CB Scizor Bullet Punch
591 Atk vs 297 Def & 416 HP (60 Base Power): 129 - 153 (31.01% - 36.78%)

CB Scizor Pursuit (no switch)
591 Atk vs 297 Def & 416 HP (60 Base Power): 129 - 153 (31.01% - 36.78%)

Cb Scizor Pursuit (switching)
591 Atk vs 297 Def & 416 HP (80 Base Power): 228 - 270 (54.81% - 64.90%)

CB Scizor U-Turn
591 Atk vs 297 Def & 416 HP (70 Base Power): 151 - 178 (36.30% - 42.79%)

......
are we really even discussing Lugia in OU? Pretty ridiculous. It can outspeed every non Prankster Toxic, Pressure stall the fuck out of everything, and even attack with Ice Beam/Earthquake/other coverage move, AND phaze with Dragon Tail, AND it has Calm Mind. Not to mention Dual Screens, TWO reliable recovery moves (pick between remaining EQ immune or losing Ice and Electric weak for a turn), and STAB Psycho Boost off of a respectable 90 SpA (for a dedicated wall).

 

[mien]

Flying STAB is the reason that Tornadus has been OU up to now. Spamming Flying STAB is currently the purpose of a couple DNite sets as well (check his page if you don't believe me).

Flying stab may be a reason however its mostly the power of a 120 BP stab move in combination with confusion that makes Tornadus powerfull in the rain.

Not saying Flying is bad, its just average really. Needless to say there are many type combinations out there with near perfect neutral coverage so it doesn't really make Flying any special.

First of all, it's not "supposed" to do anything. It might be best at something, but Lugia has no pre-determined purpose. No Pokemon does.

Any important set of Lugia is supposed to absorb damage. People only use the best qualities of a pokemon therefore whether it has the option to go 'Life orb sweeper' is irrelevant.

Needless to say i'm not going to continue with this vague Lugia-Kyogre comparison. Lugia's performance in ou is all that matters here, Kyogre shouldn't even being mentioned in the first place.

Those calculations are not from me but from Rosey Oak. If you would have token the time to actually read my argument in my sig you would have noticed that i didn't cherrypick calculations but simply made theoritical matchups to check how Lugia would fare against the top 20 of the bw ou metagame.

are we really even discussing Lugia in OU? Pretty ridiculous. It can outspeed every non Prankster Toxic, Pressure stall the fuck out of everything, and even attack with Ice Beam/Earthquake/other coverage move, AND phaze with Dragon Tail, AND it has Calm Mind. Not to mention Dual Screens, TWO reliable recovery moves (pick between remaining EQ immune or losing Ice and Electric weak for a turn), and STAB Psycho Boost off of a respectable 90 SpA (for a dedicated wall).

This isn't an argument but a basic summary of the good qualities of Lugia while ignoring its faults. Not to mention that you include a lot of pointless crap such as Psycho Boost or having 2 recovery moves/phazing moves instead of 1 as 'amazing' advantages.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

It can outspeed every non Prankster Toxic and do what exactly? It can't Taunt the Toxic,

Pressure stall the fuck out of everything, uh, Pressure stall is French for setup fodder. if it's spamming recovery it can't phaze

and even attack with Ice Beam/Earthquake/other coverage move, OH NO, IT'S A MONO-ATTACKING POKEMON WITH UNSTABED ICE BEAMS AND 90 SPECIAL ATTACK HELP ME

AND phaze with Dragon Tail, It can't break bulky Subs with unSTABed 60 Base Power moves off an uninvested 90 Base Attack

AND it has Calm Mind. Yeah, CM Lugia might be tough to break, but remember it has horrible four moveslot syndrome. It will always run Healing Move/CM/Ice Beam/Coverage Move which has god-awful neutral coverage. If it runs HP Fire it has no attacking power. If it uses Psychic Steels wall it. If it uses Aeroblast Steels still wall it.

Not to mention Dual Screens, So does Cresselia. And Deoxys. And Azelf. Lugia+Screens+Smashpass could be a good combo, but hardly broken.

TWO reliable recovery moves (pick between remaining EQ immune or losing Ice and Electric weak for a turn), Two recovery moves mean nothing. It only will use one, and a lot of walls can Recover. Many walls can do it better because of Wish.

and STAB Psycho Boost off of a respectable 90 SpA (for a dedicated wall). lol

 

[Rosey Oak]

Needless to say i'm not going to continue with this vague Lugia-Kyogre comparison. Lugia's performance in ou is all that matters here, Kyogre shouldn't even being mentioned in the first place.

Those calculations are not from me but from Rosey Oak.

The Kyogre calculations where not from me btw. (They where from SlimMan.)

 

[Kingclown50]

@DetroitLolcat It can Substitute before Toxic Hits.

And when it does get a Sub up on something that uses Toxic, like Chansey/Blissey, Slowbro, Jellicient, Gliscor, Vaporeon, etc., it will use Roost on the incoming switch/ice beam/ice fang.

If the new switch-in has Stone Edge, (CB Tyranitar or something, i dunno) Pressure will easily take care of it. Lugia outspeeds most phazers, and it can Dragon Tail Skarmory, Hippowdon, Bulky Heatran, etc. Lugia will Toxic everything else besides Ferro, who cant do anything to it except Gyro Ball, which isn't on the standard set iirc. (Power Whip/Spikes/T-Wave/Leech Seed)

What is going to kill Lugia in this situation?

(And I wasn't naming everything that makes it broken, nor did I say it was going to USe both of its recovery moves. I was naming all of the unpredictable shit it can do very well. What makes it "broken" is its speed and god-tier bulk [106/130/154].)

 

[mien]

And when it does get a Sub up on something that uses Toxic, like Chansey/Blissey, Slowbro, Jellicient, Gliscor, Vaporeon, etc., it will use Roost on the incoming switch/ice beam/ice fang.

If the new switch-in has Stone Edge, (CB Tyranitar or something, i dunno) Pressure will easily take care of it. Lugia outspeeds most phazers, and it can Dragon Tail Skarmory, Hippowdon, Bulky Heatran, etc. Lugia will Toxic everything else besides Ferro, who cant do anything to it except Gyro Ball, which isn't on the standard set iirc. (Power Whip/Spikes/T-Wave/Leech Seed)

What is going to kill Lugia in this situation?

Taunt, as your Lugia carries Toxic/Roost/Whirlwind/Substitude. Also Ferrothorn will enjoy your Lugia's presence to set up 3 layers of Spikes.

 

[Kingclown50]

Taunt, as your Lugia carries Toxic/Roost/Whirlwind/Substitude.

Dragon Tail. So when paired with SR and/or Spikes and/or Toxic Spikes Lugia really starts racking up damage just by walling nearly everything.