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np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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really terrible metagame from the games i played. people are either a) race to eliminate rhyperior or zapdos so they can bird sweep or b) using shell smash teams. really ugly and unhealthy metagame; let's remove staraptor, honchkrow, and baton pass+ shell smash. all three in my opinion definite cancers to the metagame. deoxys-d and wobbufett as well, but i need more games to actually conclude them being broken.
lol yeah. WobbTrio + Nidoking is like a 6-0.
Actually WobbTrio is countered fairly easily if you have some common Choice user on your team(Raptor, Flygon, Jolteon, etc.) and lure Wobb in with U-Turn/Volt Switch. Get Houndoom or Zoroark in off of that and Dark Pulse Wobb then Sucker Punch Trio. Houndoom's better at it since it lures in Trio more easily due to dual Fire typing. Still, I can see how WobbTrio would be extremely annoying primarily on more defensive teams.
So Wobb is easy to counter if you magically predict when Wobb will come in and switch to your Wobb counter?
This advice is completely useless. And I can't exactly switch out Chansey/Umbreon on a whim to a Staraptor when it's walling something like Raikou.
Chansey can't get the boot... :'(
Who else will my Mismagius epically set up on and destroy? (Dusclopslol)
Who else will my Mismagius epically set up on and destroy? (Dusclopslol)
Not everything... it doesn't trap other Wobbuffet.
But in all seriousness, while I am open to discussion of Wobbs being broken, saying that it is simply because of its ability is just wrong.
Of course, but that's what makes Wobbuffet what it is. With out Shadow Tag it would be completely useless. However, just having it does not mean it is broken. Sure your can't counter it the same way you counter other Pokemon, but that does not mean it is automatically broken.
I don't have enough experience with WobbTrio to say anything about it definitively with respect to tiering status, but I will say a few things:
- It requires two mediocre pokemon to work properly
- It absolutely does make standard stall almost unviable. But hey, maybe we should tell them to "adapt" to it, just like we have to "adapt" to Chansey. Run taunt on everything guys ^__^
- My standard offensive team is currently more successful on the ladder than the wobbtrio team, although both are still pretty bloody successful. This is because wobbtrio is just very mediocre against offensive teams, while my standard team is good against all styles of play.
That's all I have to say about it for now. Hopefully when I have updated impressions there will be people making better arguments on both sides than there are currently...
I'd like to talk about hail for a second, though. I had initially figured that there would be a huge resurgence in hail with Drought gone, but there's barely anything. I was half-expecting to see nominations for Abomasnow this time, and yet I've seen literally one hail team on the ladder so far. What's going on? Especially with all these birds and wobbtrio everywhere, hail would be incredibly viable. Do I need to make my own hail team >_>
- It requires two mediocre pokemon to work properly
- It absolutely does make standard stall almost unviable. But hey, maybe we should tell them to "adapt" to it, just like we have to "adapt" to Chansey. Run taunt on everything guys ^__^
- My standard offensive team is currently more successful on the ladder than the wobbtrio team, although both are still pretty bloody successful. This is because wobbtrio is just very mediocre against offensive teams, while my standard team is good against all styles of play.
That's all I have to say about it for now. Hopefully when I have updated impressions there will be people making better arguments on both sides than there are currently...
I'd like to talk about hail for a second, though. I had initially figured that there would be a huge resurgence in hail with Drought gone, but there's barely anything. I was half-expecting to see nominations for Abomasnow this time, and yet I've seen literally one hail team on the ladder so far. What's going on? Especially with all these birds and wobbtrio everywhere, hail would be incredibly viable. Do I need to make my own hail team >_>
I'm not really sure what the issue with hail is either. It's just... not that good. I'm not sure why; I think it's the lack of Kyurem (which just breaks through teams on its own) as well as the lack of anything to really break Empoleon (pity that Jynx can't have Dry Skin yet; it would make Empoleon setup fodder or extremely easy to focus blast lol; Mamoswine doesn't exactly count since Hydro Pump or Scald or whatever will still hurt it badly).
Weather took a complete 180 this round...As discussed with a few people, rain teams are very powerful, because most teams arent prepared for them...and even if they do see it in team preview there's almost no way for them to stop it...Finding a sandstorm team is rare..Ive faced only two so far and they werent really "sandstorm" teams, just coincidently had hippopatas and were just meh (no offense)...Yeah it is sad to see hail teams drop off, yeah their main force is gone, but hopefully someone can find a way to show they can still stand strong lol not me because I have had horrible attempts trying them bleh
Agreeing with Snunch, if you are using an offensively inclined team beating Banded raptor is hundred time easier then scarf. Regarding Chansey how on earth is it broken...That thing with Evolite just became more pathetic, no recovery and when you burn or toxic it it just goes down so quick. I don't see much people complaining about her last gen but now they do just because she got a slight boost in her defenses..yeah but in exchange for no leftovers or shed shell anymore. You can set up on chansey you can OHKO chansey with alot of common Pokemon, it nowhere near centralizes the fucking metagame so don't point the finger at her please. Mew is a bit more notorious and is only quite fearsome when it actually has the surprise element of running a BP set.
After reading through this thread and playing a handful of matches myself, I am agreeing with the consensus that Smashpass teams are ridiculously broken; nothing short of prankster haze or an early roar can stop them. If your hazer/roarer is gone, then gg. Quiverpass teams are almost as annoying, but much easier to stop.
Staraptor I haven't surprisingly seen a lot of, and when I encounter one my Zapdos/Suicune can usually deal with it, undecided so far on this one.
Suicune I've found is quite hard to deal with if it sets up. Using one myself I find myself easily getting 2-3 calm minds in on a defensive poke before proceeding to tear through their team with Surf.
Victini has had its effectivness nulled by the banning of drought; I find myself getting probably one KO a game with it, but its nothing like the amazing sweeper it was before this round.
Kingdra I've found is a beast in this tier. With the distinct lack of dragon types it can set up rain dance and proceed to sweep. The special variant in particular can tear apart unprepared teams with hydro pump with little effort.
Still yet to see a Wobbtrio, might post back if I do.
Staraptor I haven't surprisingly seen a lot of, and when I encounter one my Zapdos/Suicune can usually deal with it, undecided so far on this one.
Suicune I've found is quite hard to deal with if it sets up. Using one myself I find myself easily getting 2-3 calm minds in on a defensive poke before proceeding to tear through their team with Surf.
Victini has had its effectivness nulled by the banning of drought; I find myself getting probably one KO a game with it, but its nothing like the amazing sweeper it was before this round.
Kingdra I've found is a beast in this tier. With the distinct lack of dragon types it can set up rain dance and proceed to sweep. The special variant in particular can tear apart unprepared teams with hydro pump with little effort.
Still yet to see a Wobbtrio, might post back if I do.
A Pokémon is never broken due to just one thing, and Wobbuffet is included in this. Dugtrio can trap stuff, but how many Pokémon can it actually revenge kill compared to Wobbuffet? Wobbuffet has great moves to abuse its ability, and it's a shame that they're ignored when talking about Wobbuffet in passing.
1.5x is not a "slight" boost. Pokémon have changed tiers over such magnitudes of change, e.g. Aggron getting Head Smash and Drought giving so many boosts to Fire Pokémon that it got banned. DP Chansey needs eight turns of Leftovers recovery to attain the same overall bulk...
The best players I know adapt to the metagame that they're playing in.
At the beginning of UU in Generation IV there were actually a few minor complaints about Chansey. It was after we'd decided to allow NFEs in lower tiers. Chansey had always been banned from UU in the first three generations, so come Generation IV, people weren't sure about it being UU, since it had the 2nd highest special defensive capabilities in the game, etc. Of course it all turned out fine in the end.
You're right that without his ability he would be pretty useless, so it's certainly the most important factor, but it's the moves he gets to use in conjunction with Shadow Tag that make him good. If Shadow Tag Wobbuffet lacked Encore/Tickle/Mirror Coat/Counter and the only move he learned was Tackle, do you honestly think that he would still be good? If the answer is no, then Shadow Tag isn't the only reason he might be broken (just for the record, I'm not necessarily saying he is broken). All Pokemon are a combination of attributes that work in tandem. It's incredibly difficult if not impossible for one attribute specifically to be broken all on its own. Frankly, I would go as far to say that even Moody isn't broken on its own since it was the combination of the ability and Sub/Protect that broke it. A theoretical Pokemon that had Moody but lacked Sub/Protect could most likely be dealt with.
This is the main reason why I believe that ONLY Pokemon should be banned instead of all the complex crap being discussed.
I really think Espeon is Broken, what!? you'll say, but it's not broken in the regular single-pokemon-which-destroys-a-full-team kind of way, it's how it makes BP teams, really dangerous, I think is really pushing them over the edge, any BP team has to relly on Taunt to avoid being roared/taunted themselves, but espeon has BP (which means he doesn't break the chain) and Magic Bounce which makes him unable to phaze outside of D-tail (which sub blocks) and haze, he can come when you want to yawn/taunt/leech seed/t-spikes/use hazzards/etc..., just pair him with Mr. Mime to avoid Perish song (which almost nobody uses) and you can't break the chain in a reliable way, not only that, he is the perfect receiver since a STABed Stored Power is gonna OHKO everything after a few passes, and HP fighting or signal beam are enough to kill dark types
I made a team which only dierences was Milotic (scald, rest, sleep talk, and D-tail/Haze) the D-tail one lost to every BP team since even if i predicted correctly and scalded a sub, they could ressist it thaks to SpD boosts, or they spored me, then i used the haze one, and completely destroyed every BP team but one, that to me tells me how good can this stategy be thanks to espeon since he doesn't really care about phazing or status and he has always a sub so he doesn't have to worry about being KOed (and after a few boost nothing bar a crit whil take him down before being OHKOes by Stored Power)
And no Xatu is not broken since even if they share the same ability, similar typing and Stored Power, he doesn't have BP, not legally (which is really a huge difference), and he breaks the chain whenever he is passed the boosts, so you can only swich to him once, Espeon is another part of the chain, and he can continue to pass the boosts
I made a team which only dierences was Milotic (scald, rest, sleep talk, and D-tail/Haze) the D-tail one lost to every BP team since even if i predicted correctly and scalded a sub, they could ressist it thaks to SpD boosts, or they spored me, then i used the haze one, and completely destroyed every BP team but one, that to me tells me how good can this stategy be thanks to espeon since he doesn't really care about phazing or status and he has always a sub so he doesn't have to worry about being KOed (and after a few boost nothing bar a crit whil take him down before being OHKOes by Stored Power)
And no Xatu is not broken since even if they share the same ability, similar typing and Stored Power, he doesn't have BP, not legally (which is really a huge difference), and he breaks the chain whenever he is passed the boosts, so you can only swich to him once, Espeon is another part of the chain, and he can continue to pass the boosts
How exactly do you propose we adapt to Wobb? Almost everything in UU that walls Raikou regardless of its Hidden Power is picked off by WobbTrio
you gotta...
DO A BARRELL ROLL!!! or TRY A SOMERSAULT!! haha but on a serious note
you are right..you cant exactly prepare for them which is why wobb was considered broken last gen..Ive seen one dude pack a u-turner and voltswitcher on all his pokes and dealed with this combo great, but with a twist...He U-turned to a dusknior so counter wouldnt hit and voltswitched to a houndoom so mirror coat couldnt hit, as well as add pursuit and sucker punch to take both dugtrio and wobb..
personally im not saying everyone do that strategy but that was one ive seen work
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